The kids are less likely to cost you points with 6 months PL experience under their belts (and more likely to win you them!)
Tom Cleverley | 2010/11 Performances (on loan at Wigan)
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scholes wasn't experienced when he came in, giggs was never loaned out, beckham went on loan...for a handfull of games. You can't say that until he actually gets games. Your playing safe which is fair enough but if your good enough your old enough. There are many things in his favor. Not just our current midfield situation but the fact Chelsea are getting older/resbuilding and I think next season you can afford to lose probably 5 games and win the league - the way it used to be before the excuse came about that you couldn't play kids anymore.
If he impresses, he will get games. Just like Rafael who was an unknown, who didn't even play for his club in brazil and was 18 and ended up with a champs medal in his first season. He's good enough but we'll see. I can't imagine him getting loaned out if we buy no one the way we are. The main body of the team still remains. People focus on the youth but anyone can be a weak link - what you do expect is experience to help the kids and I think ultimately Tom would be better learning from winners
If someone makes a big enough bid for the club to think it's worth it, then it doesn't really matter what the player wants, they'll be on their way. In the current climate I reckon we could be tempted to part with anyone.
This is stupidly misleading. Rafael was very well known and highly rated in Brazil. He and Fabio didn't play for Fluminese because they had already agreed to join United.
On topic: Cleverly might well be "good enough" to play for United, but with the likes of Nani, Valencia, Park, Giggs, Gibson, Obertan and even the strikers (we have a lot of them btw) then is he going to get many games at their expense this season? Probably not.
Ole in 96 (think it was 96 hmm). Spurs wanted him for 5.5 million. We accepted it. He rejected it. The rests history. If you are a kid it's no different. If your not confident to stick to your guns and show people wrong, this isn't the club for you anyway. It comes down to the player.
Obvoiusly you'll find more loyality 9/10 with English player though it comes down to lots of things. I doubt anyone thought Eckersley would sod off the way he did for regular football, which incidently he's not had yet. If Tom impressed for a premier league club, he'd use that to break into United. I think he's united through and through like Ole was. I suppose people will be thinking of Simpson but that's an example of someone better coming in ie rafael.
That's why Gibson for example needs to improve before someone takes his place
Players like Ole are rare. Anyway, all I'm saying is I would rather Cleverley & Welbeck stayed here to lessen the chance of a bid & avoid the temptation to sell.
It's hard to say if he's good enough, and he certainly isn't physically developed yet. If Fergie has a choice of him, or Scholes, Fletcher, Carrick, Anderson, Giggs, Gibson, etc. He's likely to be at the bottom of the list, purely because the rest as they are now, are better players, where as there's no guarantee Cleverley ever will be at the same level.
If he wants games he'll have to go on loan, and there's no point going to somewhere like Villa where he'll just end up in the same situation. Villa aren't going to risk their season on an undeveloped player who isn't even their own.
You're over estimating his status. He's played well for Watford and in a couple of friendly games. It means nothing in Premier League language.
Only if they're amazingly talented, ala Giggs, Scholes. Otherwise they just get bullied out when the business end of things comes along. Wenger's been proving this again and again for about six years now.
Yeah, but to be fair, if you reckon he's in the same league as Giggs, Scholes or Beckham, you're living in a bit of a dream world, and even so the Premier League is a significantly higher standard now than it was then. Full back is a less demanding position for a young player than midfield, especially in games where you spend the whole 90 minutes on the front foot.
Let's not forget we're the best club in England buti'd rather we kept them anyway. I understand what your saying.
Has he been linked to Villa? - If Milner goes the fans won't be happy with a kid on loan who played for Watford last year, much more likely that they'll take players as part of the deal or sign a replacement.
If he goes out on loan he needs to be playing very week. Newcastle would be a good move - likely to play at a club with good support and pressure to perform. Would see whether he can cut it in the PL.
Yeah, but to be fair, if you reckon he's in the same league as Giggs, Scholes or Beckham, you're living in a bit of a dream world, and even so the Premier League is a significantly higher standard now than it was then. Full back is a less demanding position for a young player than midfield, especially in games where you spend the whole 90 minutes on the front foot.
I never said that. They were just examples. How do you know how good he is? How much have you seen of him? Rafael hadn't played football for a very long time. He was no where near match fit. This is a player who had to learn defending as soon as he was playing as defender type fullbacks aren't typical in brazil (no expert by any means) This is pre season and you will see a lot of mistakes. Eventually he will make his own name and this post will be long forgotten and then whos right and who's wrong? Technically he's good enough. Mentally he's shown the desire and a good attitude.
If I was talking about Gibson, I would be living in a dream world but you see Gibsons played a fair few games for United and scored a few goals. That alone means we just gotta wait and see. He's a good player, with a consistant team and games he's a better young player. Not perfect but a young scholes wasn't either.
I never said that. They were just examples. How do you know how good he is? How much have you seen of him? Rafael hadn't played football for a very long time. He was no where near match fit. This is a player who had to learn defending as soon as he was playing as defender type fullbacks aren't typical in brazil (no expert by any means) This is pre season and you will see a lot of mistakes. Eventually he will make his own name and this post will be long forgotten and then whos right and who's wrong? Technically he's good enough. Mentally he's shown the desire and a good attitude.
If I was talking about Gibson, I would be living in a dream world but you see Gibsons played a fair few games for United and scored a few goals. That alone means we just gotta wait and see. He's a good player, with a consistant team and games he's a better young player. Not perfect but a young scholes wasn't either.
You've actually taken my post out of context.
I'm saying that if Cleverley is going to be a useful player for us this season, it's more likely to be after 6 very succesful months out on loan. There's no guarantee he'll feature much at all.
I would have to agree with this! I suppose I put too much stock in his pre season form. Maybe after a year on loan to another PL club he may be good enough to contribute!
Who knows? When I looked at Beckham his age I didn't think he was anything special. When I looked at Scholes at his age he looked like a good fox in a box rather than a genious playmaker. Sometimes a player like that will blossom into real quality and show new abilities. Sometimes he won't.
The only question that should be valid is what would further the player's career. He can stay with us and train all he wants, but eventually he'll need games to improve and we can't always give him that. If he doesn't improve he won't have a future with us anyway.
Just seems like a couple of past loans that ended up with players leaving (Rossi? Campbell?) trouble you. But players who go on loan leave and players who do not leave. Also, players who go on loans return and do well for the club.
Pique left after a year in which he was not loaned out and ended up playing some first team matches. That's just not a good enough reason not to give players regular first team football by going on loan.
Maybe it is just that most of the players who have gone on loan lately have moved on makes me wary of loans. We keep hearing from SAF how good our kids are, well if they're that good I'd like to see them stay & get some minutes for us.
pre seasons for fitness..... The team changes all the time ie it's not the first team. People talk about the benefit of loans but if he's loaned out and flops what then? Do people say then he's not united quality? Games are games but your learning from inferiour players. It sounds to me like it's 'let's loan him out and he'll be better for it'. Well that's good. Let's loan all our midfielders out and have no midfield because at the moment we don't have the bodies to be blasie unless you want o'shea as a valid midfield option
Is 30 games for newcastle or whoever really the key to him being ready? I'd have thought 10 games here would be better. It's still higher profile. You're still learning from the experience of Scholes in perhaps his final season. I'd have thought that experience would be more valuable then learning from some tosser from newcastle or blackpool
There is an absolute void in midfield. Hargreaves is out. Anderson won't be back till sept - probably won't feature until mid. Carrick yes. Scholes yes Giggs yes - but they can't play 60+ games a season. Fletcher. Gibson....it's not exactly Giggs Scholes Keane Becks is it....
We kept hearing from Fergie how good Foster was... Until he sold him that is. We kept hearing from Fergie hwo good Veron was... Until he sold him that is. Fergie will always build up his players. Years ago he mentioned in one of his books (Will to win from 97') great young players like Wes Brown, John Curtis and Alex Notman, "who only needs to grow up a bit". Well, only one of them got a real career with us (Curtis made a few appearances) and it wasn't Notman.
Most of our young lads will not make it as United players whether they go out on loan or not, and we have to remember that. It's actually been right in the mid-ninties as well. A few have made it then - but for every Neville or Scholes you had others who did not. There are more loans now, and maybe the youth teams are larger, so maybe it makes you think something has changed. It hasn't. Most players do not make it, same as before.
A good loan, though, can build them up and help them make the step up from reserve football to first team football. It was wonderful for Evans, it had good effect on other players who just didn't progress enough to be United players. It doesn't mean they'll make it, though. Nothing's certain.
The reality is that the vast majority of kids coming up through the ranks don't have a long-term future at United, loan deals or no loan deals.
What you should remember, though, is that the last two kids to come through our academy that DID establish themselves in our first-team squad, Evans and Gibson, both went out on loan.
lets be honest though, Foster was fooling no one
The charity shield is the only time i've seen a goalkeeper openly shitting it on a football pitch. Talk about nervious.Ah right. Yeah, I agree then, but I'd say it's more likely a year or two down the line before he's of any real use...if he turns out to be good enough. Definitely don't see the problem with him going on loan again this year.
This thread infers it. I'd say it's debatable whether he's technically good enough. He just looks like a decent young player who it's worth holding out on to see how he develops. Throwing him into the first team simply isn't going to happen. Not unless we have an unpresedented injury crisis that ruins our entire season.
Rafael doesn't know how to defend. He's a liability against any team who attack us, and only plays in those games if literally everyone else is injured.
Look, we have this argument on here every single year at this time. Last season it was Macheda and Welbeck, before that Gibson and Frazier Campbell, before that Rossi, Eagles, David Jones, Bardsley, Pique, Possebon etc...unless they're the next Rooney/Ronaldo, they either go on loan, or play in the reserves. Cleverley's no different. He's not ready for the first team, regardless of how good he ends up being.
Can we give him 10 games? People will say League Cup - but you could be out of that after one game. People will say dead rubber CL matches - but can you be sure we'll have one or two of those? And who knows what happens in the league and whether we'll be in a position to throw a youngster into the mix.
I'm pretty sure he'll go out on loan. That's normally Fergie's way - he won't hold back a player, keep him around just so he'll have extra backup, if he can send him somewhere that will play him regularly.
I honestly don't believe much in players learning from other players, no matter how good they are. I can see how they can get the odd tip or so, but that's nothing like playing games and learning it the hard way. Anyhow, it's not as if coaching staffs at clubs don't know football and can't help him. Scholes brilliant, but he hasn't invented football, he hasn't invented passing. He may be better at it than most, but he doesn't mean he's good at showing others how to do it.
Not really sure what 'being ready' means. Obviously not ready to be a regular. He can play the odd game, he can even do well, but for that - he might as well go elsewhere and play regularly.
Rafael has a championship winners medal and is 20. Let's not forget evra when we bought him and he was 24. Its to be expected. Tom could easily get minutes here because I think it's fair to say, midfield we're quite bland. Time will tell anyway but I think people forget Toms been on loan twice and Gibson is an example of someone who wasn't loaned to a premier league club.
I don't think it's overly important who you loan too. The main thing is games. This is a kid who's confident, was voted their best player, who scored. I'm not denying it's not a challenge for him to get in and you don't have to be a regular really. Just to get in and get 10+ games - something to build on.
I think he's earnt that and unless we buy, I don't think there's any reason to loan him out because we really don't have enough and cleverly offers something different. We'll see though. If he gets loaned out then Sir Alex is doing what he thinks is right
I don't think it's overly important who you loan too. The main thing is games. This is a kid who's confident, was voted their best player, who scored. I'm not denying it's not a challenge for him to get in and you don't have to be a regular really. Just to get in and get 10+ games - something to build on.
I think he's earnt that and unless we buy, I don't think there's any reason to loan him out because we really don't have enough and cleverly offers something different. We'll see though. If he gets loaned out then Sir Alex is doing what he thinks is right
I think we can give him 10 games. It don't have to be technically full games. Some home games here and there. Some games where we've a cushion. Cup games but then if he impresses, it gives people confidence. People back Gibson because he's in the team - rather then their own instincts
I don't know how people feel when Gibsons in the team - but having seem both over a while, I think Cleverly has the better potential. He's certainly got legs which in Carrick and Gibson we don't really have but we trust Sir Alex...I'm still waiting for the kid who won reserve player of the year becase I didn't watch the reserves back then. He'd never win it now if he was involved
Has he put on too much weight? Is he not hungry enough? (Gibson) - that's why it's such a good topic. I don't think anyone knows but Sir Alex. Thankfully he's the best judge
Cleverley is a winger.. ala Park. He can do a job in the middle, but that's not his main role. Maybe he would be useful playing in the middle ahead of the midfielders, but we don't play that way that much. As things stands, he's behind the others on the wings, and he's behind the others for the CM role. He should go on loan and we can take it from there.
Well it sounds like SAF still hasn't made his mind up, so it's not as obviously beneficial to send Tom & Danny out on loan as some are suggesting.
These are players that offer versatility & a threat in attack that we lacked at times last year. I hope they're ready now & SAF uses them, there's nothing like young local talent making an impact for the first team.
These are players that offer versatility & a threat in attack that we lacked at times last year. I hope they're ready now & SAF uses them, there's nothing like young local talent making an impact for the first team.
The point is surely, if they are loaned to a premiership club then they will be playing exactly the same opposition as if they were playing for United.
Surely to aid their development, when they play premiership teams its better to have the best players around them and they can learn much easier.
Sending Cleverley, for example, to Villa, would just put him up against the same teams we play, but with inferior players and not really do him justice.
I'd much rather see him at United playing lesser premiership teams alongside the players he is training with, day in day out, and developing and learning from the best in the game.
Problem is, with all the players we've got even when you rest a few against the lower level sides, you've got players ahead of Cleverly who you want to play because you want to keep them sharp for the latter parts of the season.
Whereas, hopefully, if he goes on loan he'll simply be playing regularly. Stronger sides, weaker sides, whatever.
It may depend on who wants to take them on loan and what other business they've done already. I think Fergie has very much made up his mind. We all know what he says and what he does are two different things.
It would give him confidence, but still - part games, matches which are already won... Things that might never happen. Why do that if we can send him somewhere where he will play - hopefully - week in, week out and really learn what it's like to be a Premier League footballer? It should be about spending as much time as possible on the pitch.
Cleverly is versatile. It don't matter if it's not his main role wan as he's still improving. He was a full back lets not forget. How do you know 100 games in he won't be a better midfielder? Alot of people imagined becks would have been a top midfielder but it didn't prove to be the case and again when you take Gibson who will get games - this is a guy who's about as fit as a pub team player, has limited mobility and wouldn't be anywhere near uniteds first team but the goals. You have to imagine we've said he's not perfect - but we'll work with him and he will come good. So when you give kids chances, they don't have to be perfect
I'd ask any of you guys if you think Gibsons ready, and the answer is no but we hide behind the clubs decisions as validation
I don't know if that's because of him being that good on the wing (becks) or the fact we had scholes and keane there but Toms position is likely to change because he can play a few positions and because he wouldn't oust nani and valencia but I don't think midfields tied up when you think about the future. I don't think so.
Think about this: Hargreaves, Giggs and Scholes - could be gone within a season. That's three midfielders right there.
amir we're only speculating though and the thing is if Gibson can do it, why not Tom? He's played in the championship, he's trained with united - played with the kids etc - educated through our system. I'm not sure when loaning to prem clubs became so important. I could understand Diouf because he's from a different country, the competition is fierce up top and there is a possibility he would be sold
If he goes on loan, I hope it's to blackpool. feck newcastle. Thay'd find some way to feck him up.
I don't think it matters that Rafael has a championship winners medal and is 20. That has nothing to do with Cleverley. They don't even play in the same area of the pitch.
What he might have earnt is also irrelevant, imo. He's not going to get many games when there are five or six players who would be ahead of him in the pecking order, and especially when he's not even physically developed. I just can't see that it would happen, unless Fergie changes his approach drastically overnight. That's why Fergie wants to send him on loan, and that's why it'll be to someone rubbish where there's at least a half decent chance he'll be given games.
Either that or he's going to be playing predominantly for our reserves, which doesn't really help anyone.
The team will be playing the same opposition, cleverly wont. Cleverly will be sitting on the bench most games (if hes lucky), and only play in a few league games and the carling cup.
If he went to a lower prem club, he'd be starting for them and he'd be playin much more often.
Dont get me wrong, i want cleverly to stay with us, but he'd get much more games going out on loan.
yes but it shows you don't need premiership experience to come in if you are good enough and if Tom wasn't he wouldn't be on tour with us for the third time i think it is.
The competition isn't as firece as you make it sound. Let's face it, Gibson put carrick on the bench. Your saying he'll play reserve football but you don't know that. That's the point. There's no point us going through this because if i thought that was the case, then yes a loan would be best
I'm just failing to see how going to a prem club for 6 months or a season will do anything for him - and I don't see how it will put him in a stronger position to play for United because playing for newcastle or blackpool is not the same as playing for United. A player is as good as his last performance. It's up to them to take their chances. Tactics and pressure do exist outside the premiership.
That goes for everyone. You couldn't get a bigger demonstation of that then Carrick who was a certain first teamer and was dropped..for Gibson who didn't have premiership experience either before playing for us. Sir Alex said Carrick played well against munich but after he hardly featured.
If you don't see ANY potential benefits to playing regular PL football for 6 months then...well...y'know...I don't really need to say it do I...
Read this in April. Maybe Fergie's changed his mind. Personally I'd like to see him remain with us.
What has Darren's opinion got to do with SAF's mind?
Not sure, maybe they met once in speed dating and had a chat for five minutes
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