Toni Kroos

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What a player this man is. Pure class. Really wish we had gotten him when we were linked with him.
 

tomaldinho1

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Is there a known reason why LVG pulled the plug on the deal ?
Think Kroos said no, not us. Moyes apparently had the deal ready to go and for whatever reason it never happened whereas I think Kroos decided he wasn't up for United with LVG, I don't know if he specified if it was because of LVG or just not seeing United as an attractive next step given we were then not in the CL but a couple of pundits claimed he didn't want to work under LVG again.
 

OmarUnited4ever

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In the alternate universe where you buy Kroos, do you buy Casemiro and Modric too?
Because else there's no way Kroos wouldn't have looked terrible for you, and you would have absolutely hated him after a short honeymoon period.
We don't know and you don't know too, how he would've fared in United had he joined. But what we knew in 2014 is that Kroos was an excellent young midfielder (23-24 years).

In Madrid he played alongside Modric who played in different roles at Spurs (CM, LW, etc...) and Casmeiro who was an unknown quantity before settling into the DM role at Madrid when Alonso left, no expected they would dominate CL for 3 years.

Kroos also won WC with Germany playing alongside Khadira & Schweinstiger, so that's an evidence of him succeeding with different players beside Casmeiro & Modric.
 

Hansi Fick

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We don't know and you don't know too, how he would've fared in United had he joined. But what we knew in 2014 is that Kroos was an excellent young midfielder (23-24 years).

In Madrid he played alongside Modric who played in different roles at Spurs (CM, LW, etc...) and Casmeiro who was an unknown quantity before settling into the DM role at Madrid when Alonso left, no expected they would dominate CL for 3 years.

Kroos also won WC with Germany playing alongside Khadira & Schweinstiger, so that's an evidence of him succeeding with different players beside Casmeiro & Modric.
He might have been a young midfielder still, but really he has been playing like a pensioner ever since at Real.
Sitting in his comfort zone, considerably deeper than at Bayern, calmly passing the ball to the next guy.

Press him and he drops to the ground in entitled expectation of a free kick, like Busquets.
Which makes it all the more puzzling why Liverpool left him alone like they did.
 

OmarUnited4ever

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He might have been a young midfielder still, but really he has been playing like a pensioner ever since at Real.
Sitting in his comfort zone, considerably deeper than at Bayern, calmly passing the ball to the next guy.

Press him and he drops to the ground in entitled expectation of a free kick, like Busquets.
Which makes it all the more puzzling why Liverpool left him alone like they did.
You seem very sour in your comments about Kroos, did he leave Bayern in terms?
 

Lyricist

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In the alternate universe where you buy Kroos, do you buy Casemiro and Modric too?
Because else there's no way Kroos wouldn't have looked terrible for you, and you would have absolutely hated him after a short honeymoon period.
ok :lol:

We're talking about summer of 2014. Kroos had just been a vital member of the team that won the WC, and had previously made 2 CL finals and 1 CL semi within the last 3 years.
I don't even remember any time during Kroos' career where he was ever close to being "terrible" for any of the teams he played. Got 2 assists in his first senior appearance as a 17 year old and never looked back.
 

Zehner

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He might have been a young midfielder still, but really he has been playing like a pensioner ever since at Real.
Sitting in his comfort zone, considerably deeper than at Bayern, calmly passing the ball to the next guy.

Press him and he drops to the ground in entitled expectation of a free kick, like Busquets.
Which makes it all the more puzzling why Liverpool left him alone like they did.
This is so wrong regarding both Kroos and Busquets. Easily two of the most pressing resistant midfielders on the planet during the last two decades.
 

Lyricist

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You seem very sour in your comments about Kroos, did he leave Bayern in terms?
This poster is well known for his rather subjective opinions. Kroos was never a fan favorite at Bayern, despite playing well. Bayern fecked up his contract extension though, as Bayern were chasing Götze as the next big thing. They should've tried to give Kroos a raise instead, but Hoeneß made a public thing out of telling Kroos that his level is not that of a top earner at Bayern. So Kroos decided that he wanted to leave

Kroos plays like a perfectly functioning midfield maestro robot who does exactly what he's known for every game. There are not many goal-against-Sweden-2018 type situations with him where you feel that he will want to take things into his own hands. But Kroos is obviously a world class player and was vital for Real's 3 consecutive CL wins. Not many have his passing range, his control, and his overall influence in the center of the field. Truly a special player.

But his passing-robot like aura on the field somehow never sat well with some of Bayern's fans. But he was always great at what he does, also at Bayern. That this poster Hansi Feck (has the german word for fecking in his name aside of Flick's last name) hates him is not due to Kroos doing this or that. That's due to the poster being one for rather strong opinions in situations where the general consensus is that there's nothing much to talk about.
 

Synco

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Kroos also won WC with Germany playing alongside Khadira & Schweinstiger, so that's an evidence of him succeeding with different players beside Casmeiro & Modric.
True. The commonality is Kroos being LCM in a midfield three, which I think is a good basis for him to play his game with the necessary support.

Would have been interesting to see him continue with Guardiola at Bayern in a true possession style. (Not that he'll have any regrets, considering how his Real career went.)
This is so wrong regarding both Kroos and Busquets. Easily two of the most pressing resistant midfielders on the planet during the last two decades.
Absolutely, it's a crucial part of what made/makes them great.
 

Hansi Fick

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This is so wrong regarding both Kroos and Busquets. Easily two of the most pressing resistant midfielders on the planet during the last two decades.
They're press resistant only because they usually get their free kick for nothing.
 

DWelbz19

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He might have been a young midfielder still, but really he has been playing like a pensioner ever since at Real.
Sitting in his comfort zone, considerably deeper than at Bayern, calmly passing the ball to the next guy.

Press him and he drops to the ground in entitled expectation of a free kick, like Busquets.
Which makes it all the more puzzling why Liverpool left him alone like they did.
Jilted lover. My heart bleeds for you.
 

Synco

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On pressing resistance:

Dupes the opponent(s) with first touch & body feints, precise pass directly afterwards. Perfect vision, perfect timing, perfect execution. Has done that routine countless times during his career.
 

Zehner

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They're press resistant only because they usually get their free kick for nothing.
I'm sorry man but I can't phrase it any differently: That's absolute nonsense. They're very good at absorbing pressure. Quick turns to open up passing lanes, good first touches, anticipation etc. and even better at positioning themselves/avoiding pressure.

Toni Kroos was fouled 1.6 times per game over his whole career, Busquets 1.8. So unless you believe players regularly having 100+ touches per game are only under pressure less than 2 times per game then you're objectively wrong.
 

Hansi Fick

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This poster is well known for his rather subjective opinions. Kroos was never a fan favorite at Bayern, despite playing well. Bayern fecked up his contract extension though, as Bayern were chasing Götze as the next big thing. They should've tried to give Kroos a raise instead, but Hoeneß made a public thing out of telling Kroos that his level is not that of a top earner at Bayern. So Kroos decided that he wanted to leave

Kroos plays like a perfectly functioning midfield maestro robot who does exactly what he's known for every game. There are not many goal-against-Sweden-2018 type situations with him where you feel that he will want to take things into his own hands. But Kroos is obviously a world class player and was vital for Real's 3 consecutive CL wins. Not many have his passing range, his control, and his overall influence in the center of the field. Truly a special player.

But his passing-robot like aura on the field somehow never sat well with some of Bayern's fans. But he was always great at what he does, also at Bayern. That this poster Hansi Feck (has the german word for fecking in his name aside of Flick's last name) hates him is not due to Kroos doing this or that. That's due to the poster being one for rather strong opinions in situations where the general consensus is that there's nothing much to talk about.
First of all, thank you for putting the bolded so neutrally, I appreciate the restraint. Let's say I'm "meinungsstark" :lol:

Overall, very accurate post.

But, in defense of my position, I will add that the 'passing-robot' aura intensified, or was cultivated by Kroos himself, following his move to Real. Let's not forget that at Bayern, he was an 8/10 hybrid (forgetting his early spells on the wing..).
He was performing the metronome in much more contested and congested areas, and while he was also there giving off the vibe of not taking on proper responsibilty, the ability to integrally contribute to the control, domination and rhythm of the game with the ball required more resistance to pressure and to precarious situations.

When he moved to Real, Ancelotti installed him as the Alonso successor, the deep lying conductor behind the 8s.
So my thesis is, that Kroos' inherent affinity to a certain amount of phlegm, and to not wanting to take too much individual responsibility/ not wanting to hustle (not bad attributes per se in a playmaker mind you!) made him revel in this role in such a way that he set up a comfort zone.
His early Real time really was him sitting in acres of space, deep, unchallenged, always able to receive the ball to then give it to Marcelo/Modric/Isco/Carvajal who then were supposed to make something happen. While he could appear as this kind of conductor/maestro. Against the ball he was of course a disaster, predictably.
I think he performed the deep-lying playmaker role reliably, yes, but also uninspired, lazy, pedestrian.

It was only with the addition of Casemiro that his role changed slightly for the better, again.
 

Hansi Fick

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I'm sorry man but I can't phrase it any differently: That's absolute nonsense. They're very good at absorbing pressure. Quick turns to open up passing lanes, good first touches, anticipation etc. and even better at positioning themselves/avoiding pressure.

Toni Kroos was fouled 1.6 times per game over his whole career, Busquets 1.8. So unless you believe players regularly having 100+ touches per game are only under pressure less than 2 times per game then you're objectively wrong.
You can go for stats - that's the way people that don't understand football analyse football, is with stats.
I don't go for stats, I go for what I felt and what I watch in the game.
 

Zehner

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You can go for stats - that's the way people that don't understand football analyse football, is with stats.
I don't go for stats, I go for what I felt and what I watch in the game.
See, you made a claim and the stats disprove it. Moreover, this is not some stat with room for interpretation, like dribblings or duels, it's fouls. Either the ref decided on foul or not. This makes your initial claim factually wrong, like it or not. So this has nothing to do with eye test over stats. In this case it's pretty straight forward: You've been proven wrong but you won't admit it.
 

Hansi Fick

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See, you made a claim and the stats disprove it. Moreover, this is not some stat with room for interpretation, like dribblings or duels, it's fouls. Either the ref decided on foul or not. This makes your initial claim factually wrong, like it or not. So this has nothing to do with eye test over stats. In this case it's pretty straight forward: You've been proven wrong but you won't admit it.
Stats never "prove" or "disprove" anything. I'd say welcome to the 20th century, Monsieur Comte, but we're already in the 21st.
 

Sylar

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In the alternate universe where you buy Kroos, do you buy Casemiro and Modric too?
Because else there's no way Kroos wouldn't have looked terrible for you, and you would have absolutely hated him after a short honeymoon period.
He would have played with Carrick. I mean that would have been really fun for us.

Excerpt from the Athletic
Ouch we truly missed out.
Yep, we did. Sadly, he didnt and I dont think he would be complaining with how it turned out.


Think Kroos said no, not us. Moyes apparently had the deal ready to go and for whatever reason it never happened whereas I think Kroos decided he wasn't up for United with LVG, I don't know if he specified if it was because of LVG or just not seeing United as an attractive next step given we were then not in the CL but a couple of pundits claimed he didn't want to work under LVG again.
Think its a combination. If LVG greenlights it (like the Shaw and Herrera deals which were prepared beforehand), then I think he signs.
It seems LVG annd United stalled, didnt contact him (as per his words) so he had second thoughts and once Ancelotti came calling, he knew what he had to do.
 

A-man

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Stats never "prove" or "disprove" anything. I'd say welcome to the 20th century, Monsieur Comte, but we're already in the 21st.
-Martial has scored a lot of goals this season.
-No, he hasn't. Only 0.2 goals per game.
-That is just stats and that is for people who don't understand football. I know he has scored a lot from watching football.
 

Zehner

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Stats never "prove" or "disprove" anything. I'd say welcome to the 20th century, Monsieur Comte, but we're already in the 21st.
So your argument is that every statistic can be tampered with so we should trust none? This argument is better suited to an Assassin's Creed game or a covid protest marsh than a football forum, mate.
 

Synco

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You can go for stats - that's the way people that don't understand football analyse football, is with stats.
I don't go for stats, I go for what I felt and what I watch in the game.
The problem is that the eye test clearly didn't work if the result is Busquets and Kroos aren't press resistant.
 

Pow

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Thought he was quality last night.
That assist was great.

How will he down I wonder when he retires

Won everything and been heavily involved in it. Top top player.
 

Hansi Fick

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The problem is that the eye test clearly didn't work if the result is Busquets and Kroos aren't press resistant.
The eye test clearly shows that both have developed, and both display, an attitude of entitlement in their unwillingness to be challenged, which is what I said. Busquets in his latter years especially. I didn't say that they don't have the quality or skill to be press resistant.
 

Hansi Fick

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So your argument is that every statistic can be tampered with so we should trust none? This argument is better suited to an Assassin's Creed game or a covid protest marsh than a football forum, mate.
That wasn't my argument at all, but your answer confirms my assessment.
 

Synco

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The eye test clearly shows that both have developed, and both display, an attitude of entitlement in their unwillingness to be challenged, which is what I said. Busquets in his latter years especially. I didn't say that they don't have the quality or skill to be press resistant.
Probably best to just quote the post and let the reader decide what it says:
He might have been a young midfielder still, but really he has been playing like a pensioner ever since at Real.
Sitting in his comfort zone, considerably deeper than at Bayern, calmly passing the ball to the next guy.

Press him and he drops to the ground in entitled expectation of a free kick, like Busquets.
Which makes it all the more puzzling why Liverpool left him alone like they did.
 
Last edited:

Zehner

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The eye test clearly shows that both have developed, and both display, an attitude of entitlement in their unwillingness to be challenged, which is what I said. Busquets in his latter years especially. I didn't say that they don't have the quality or skill to be press resistant.
Come on, you literally said that they're only press resistant because they usually get their free kick for nothing:

They're press resistant only because they usually get their free kick for nothing.
 

RooneyLegend

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The eye test clearly shows that both have developed, and both display, an attitude of entitlement in their unwillingness to be challenged, which is what I said. Busquets in his latter years especially. I didn't say that they don't have the quality or skill to be press resistant.
Busquets when he was great was almost the definition of being press resistant though, which is where you deserve some push back but Kroos has never had great footwork and more times than not relies on his first time passing under pressure ala Roy Keane.
 

Hansi Fick

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Come on, you literally said that they're only press resistant because they usually get their free kick for nothing:
I said that to spite your post, which is a perfectly fine justification for a little hyperbole.

But I forget you only deal with FACTS, not undertones.
 

Zehner

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I said that to spite your post, which is a perfectly fine justification for a little hyperbole.
Nah, you've been proven wrong, now even contradicted yourself and still refuse to admit it. But go ahead.
 

Hansi Fick

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Nah, you've been proven wrong, now even contradicted yourself and still refuse to admit it. But go ahead.
I just think we see things very differently.

I see the forest, you see trees in a botanical garden.
 

Zehner

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I just think we see things very differently.

I see the forest, you see trees in a botanical garden.
Actually I see two pretty damn press resistant players on a football pitch. You're the one describing them as two immobile trees waiting for the lumberjack, not me ;)
 

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If he weren't catastrophic defensively he'd have gone down as the best CM of this era
 

schwalbe

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I know where @Hansi Fick is coming from with regards to his pressing resistance, falling to the ground and calling foul when pressured was a bit of a signature move of his during his time at Bayern.

I always thought of Kroos to be a player who can elevate a very good team to another level but who would struggle in weaker, less dominant sides.
He's technically superb, his passing is worldclass and he has a fantastic shot even though he makes way too little use of it in my opinion. However, I think he's seriously lacking in other areas which would be much more apparent if he wasn't playing for Real Madrid or Bayern. I think it sometimes shows at the german NT.
For this reason he wouldn't even make it into my top 3 german midfielders of this century in terms of his peak level.
 

Lyricist

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If he weren't catastrophic defensively he'd have gone down as the best CM of this era
Who has been more valuable out of Kroos and Modric would you say or are they on the same level?
How do Madrid fans generally rate these 2 and Casemiro?

For this reason he wouldn't even make it into my top 3 german midfielders of this century in terms of his peak level.
Who do you see above him? Ballack, Schweinsteiger, Khedira/Frings? Kimmich has only had 1.5 seasons at CM on the highest pretty much. Wouldn't it be unfair to include him just yet?
 

giorno

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He's hyperspecialized. He's fantastic at what he does well, one of the best ever, but brings literally nothing else and is an actual liability defensively. What this means is that you have to build the team around him, play at his pace, and surround him with players who can both complement his strenghts and make up for the weaknesses....and it's not easy to do that, i don't think, and you have to wonder whether he's worth it when you could get somebody who brings ~ 80% of what he does without conditioning team building and team play as much....
 

giorno

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Who has been more valuable out of Kroos and Modric would you say or are they on the same level?
How do Madrid fans generally rate these 2 and Casemiro?
Modric was the best of the 3, but as for valuable, they worked in concert, it's hard to say who was less valuable. Probably Kroos for no other reason than Modric could do a really good job of replacing him, whereas Luka and Case were effectively irrepleaceable

These days i'd say Casemiro is the best of the 3, followed by Kroos then Modric. However the way Modric has played the last few months, it's hard to say whether he isn't more valuable than Kroos still
 

Hansi Fick

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Who do you see above him? Ballack, Schweinsteiger, Khedira/Frings? Kimmich has only had 1.5 seasons at CM on the highest pretty much. Wouldn't it be unfair to include him just yet?
Khedira surely not.. Gündogan gets overlooked often, qualitywise he's up there with the best of them but of course hasn't had nearly as highly decorated, or consistent, a career as Kroos, due to his injury spells.