Tonight's MNF (City demolition)...

[Escobar]

I agree that it wasnt just City who stopped playing, it was that we got better, got into our game and they just couldnt handle it after Young's goal.

Brilliant analisys by both of them even though I think Neville went a bit OTT with his Rooney comments

 

[Xaviesta]

I agree that it wasnt just City who stopped playing, it was that we got better, got into our game and they just couldnt handle it after Young's goal.

Brilliant analisys by both of them even though I think Neville went a bit OTT with his Rooney comments

It sounded like Rooney was Neville's love child on the show last night.

 

[Walters_19_MuFc]

I agree, I can't see Zouma coming into midfield. I would predict that Ramires will come in and Cesc pushed further forward.

Ye I think so too.

Knowing Mourinho, he'll probably ask his players to fall over, the moment Fellaini or Herrera are within 5 yards of them

Well you know what he's like. He'll try anything to win.

 

[Theonas]

Maybe I should rephrase and say its probably easier to drill less gifted players than more gifted ones?

You're right Pep's Barcelona had wonderful players who bought into what he wanted to do. However, the issues Pep had with Zlatan that you mentioned sort of illustrate the point I wanted to make: Naturally gifted players can find it difficult to accept being told to stick to a rigid plan. Also, Zlatan wasn't the only one.

Many of the players Pep inherited he moved out fairly rapidly, replacing them with La Masia graduates more inclined to respect him for his legendary status at Barca. Its not unusual for big players like Eto'o and Zlatan to think they know what gets the best out of them, and for them to push back against coaches they feel mismanage them. Its not that much of a leap to see why Zlatan thought the attitude of the Barca cantera products was childlike.

I don't disagree that ego is part of the equation. Still, the better a player is the more big headed he's likely to be. For instance, Messi does not get on with Luis Enrique. Messi took pretty much half a season to accept Lucho's decision to play him inside right, and that acceptance came only after his professional pride was bruised by losing the Ballon d'or to Ronaldo. Unsurprisingly as soon as Messi stopped resisting the new role Barcelona got into title chasing form. However, its not difficult to see what might have happened had he continued his battle with Lucho.

Players who aren't elite level are less likely to have these kind of battles with their managers. Its not impossible to drill a side of exceptional players, especially if you can capture their imaginations as Pep has successfully at Barcelona and Bayern. However, I think the task is considerably harder than it is getting into the heads of less extraordinarily talented players.

In many ways, the absolute authority of the manager at Old Trafford and the tactical naivety of the Premier League, makes Man Utd the perfect place for Van Gaal. In England, and especially at Man Utd, the manager's word is law. Plus, English players are (generally speaking) not taught to develop their own ideas on the game to the same extent as Dutchmen or Spaniards. With Holland, Barcelona and Bayern it all fell apart for Van Gaal, he had too many people above and below him questioning him. At United he won't get that. I'm sure he must feel sort of like he did 20 years ago back at Ajax.

I cannot believe @matherto watched either Sunday's game or the 1-6 game.

City started well last Sunday but we were dominant from about the 12th minute, City did not cut through us at will. The City players used the direct ball to exploit our high line with the pace of Navas and Aguero. It worked a couple of times but as soon as we shook of the nerves and started playing they were gone.

As for the 1-6, we were much better in the first half and Balotelli scored against the run of play. Even after Evans's sending off the game was very tight until Fletcher scored. However, once we got it back to 1-3 Old Trafford began encouraging the players to chase a draw. In the last 10 minutes, desperate to try and rescue a point, the players threw caution to the wind, committed to attacking, and got hit on the counter repeatedly. It was a bit crazy, given we had 10 men against a very good City side, but we're Man Utd we don't go down without swinging.

If you want to point to a game where we were comprehensively dispatched by City, the 4-1 at their place last season would be it. We were never in the game.

All fair points I have to say. I especially agree with your point about English players and how discouraged they are about developing their own ideas about the game. Since his appointment, I thought that this might be the only job Van Gaal doesn't fall out with people over. Like you say, the manager's word here is a law and nobody interferes, we tend to idolize managers and especially foreign ones. Players like Jones, Smalling, Young and even Rooney will follow his instructions to a tee. That is one of the reasons that I feel it is impossible to tell what do we need in terms of personnel. Our players have never been coached this way before, they have never been given that tactical platform to make their jobs easier which is why IMO it is impossible to tell how good or bad they are compared to their European counter parts. I am of course here not including obvious game changers like a Messi, Ronaldo or Suarez but more about midfielders and defenders. Overall, I can't really argue with any of the points you are making. I think what is making this topic interesting is the definition of extraordinary talented players. To some, this would include Xavi, Pirlo, Scholes and so on which is at the end of the day a linguistics issue but those are the types of players I feel are not affected so much by ego as despite being some of the best in the business, their job is more subtle. The problem comes with what I would call the explosive players who like to have the ball and run at defenders and do more on their own; instinctive players like Messi, Zlatan, Suarez, Ronaldo and so on. I think we only have Di Maria, Rooney and Van Persie who can be put into that bracket so whereas Van Gaal might have a problem with somebody like Rivaldo or today maybe Cristiano Ronaldo, he would have no issues with a Kroos or Vidal. I am not if it is but I hope that my point is coming across clearly.

 

[Theonas]

Guys I am leaning back in my chair and going wow! Look back at the last decade of commentary by ex pros, in Ireland and the UK. Dunphy, Giles, Brian Kerr even Brady in Ireland, Keano, Dixon, Savage, Shearer, Keown. One thing gets them all going; failures in fulfilling defensive duties. How a goal chance might have been prevented. How to cover, to organise at set pieces. Never about attack. We left that in the lap of the gods, or the almost inhuman skill sets of the Georgie Best's the Eric Cantona's etc, or in another sense the opportunism of the Sheringhams or whatever. No need to go back and make this a judgement on Fergie, but to look forward to a new way of doing things that completely re-writes the coaching books. Terrific post, @Theonas.

Cheers mate, you do flatter me haha! It is something I have always noticed, I follow the BBC commentary section and I swear that after 9 out of 10 goals anywhere, there is always a comment about how the atrocious the defending was from a pundit or a fan. They're usually not wrong at all but that is not the point. The point is that it is the first thing the English based individual notices, it is the main and only point. It points to a very clear and utter dismissal to coaching in other areas. Zonal marking and man to man is another one where we are so much more comfortable with the idea of individuals doing a job instead of a team functioning as a unit. Carragher in one of those MNF videos pointed out how he thought zonal defending is better but that he would still ask his players to do man to man if he was manager simply because he thinks players are not smart enough. It's a chicken and egg scenario in England. Do managers simply not trust players to think or are players too thick to think. IMO it is both but not because of some genetic flaw but more because of the fact that we DO like football in this country fast, furious and emotional.

I remember an article by Martin Samuel after England's defeat to Germany in the WC where he predicted the usual whinging about how England doesn't have quality players and pointed out that it was more about being out-thought than outplayed. He was absolutely spot on, English players are simply asked to do it on their own. Carrick was playing with a deep defense, Giggs on his side, two wide men and two strikers in the 2011 final, Busquets was playing with high defensing live, inside winger and a false nine. That was about 5 times more passing options than Carrick had. Instead of pointing out how our system did not enable Carrick to show what he can do, most pundits simply concluded "well, he isn't good enough compared to the very best". I am just thinking, how could you even know? they were playing practically different games. The funny thing is that this is so easy to point out, Sir Alex must have known this but his instincts did not change much in that love for wingers, pace and power. That's the way he wanted his team to play and how he built it to play, it meant we could outfight anyone, had brilliant players and an unbelievable mentality. However, it meant we were so easy to counter from a tactical point of view.

 

[#07]

All fair points I have to say. I especially agree with your point about English players and how discouraged they are about developing their own ideas about the game. Since his appointment, I thought that this might be the only job Van Gaal doesn't fall out with people over. Like you say, the manager's word here is a law and nobody interferes, we tend to idolize managers and especially foreign ones. Players like Jones, Smalling, Young and even Rooney will follow his instructions to a tee. That is one of the reasons that I feel it is impossible to tell what do we need in terms of personnel. Our players have never been coached this way before, they have never been given that tactical platform to make their jobs easier which is why IMO it is impossible to tell how good or bad they are compared to their European counter parts. I am of course here not including obvious game changers like a Messi, Ronaldo or Suarez but more about midfielders and defenders. Overall, I can't really argue with any of the points you are making. I think what is making this topic interesting is the definition of extraordinary talented players. To some, this would include Xavi, Pirlo, Scholes and so on which is at the end of the day a linguistics issue but those are the types of players I feel are not affected so much by ego as despite being some of the best in the business, their job is more subtle. The problem comes with what I would call the explosive players who like to have the ball and run at defenders and do more on their own; instinctive players like Messi, Zlatan, Suarez, Ronaldo and so on. I think we only have Di Maria, Rooney and Van Persie who can be put into that bracket so whereas Van Gaal might have a problem with somebody like Rivaldo or today maybe Cristiano Ronaldo, he would have no issues with a Kroos or Vidal. I am not if it is but I hope that my point is coming across clearly.

Can't find anything to disagree with in what you have said. In fact, I think you have hit the nail on your head with the point about where the gaps in our side actually are.

We are accustomed to depending on the individual attacking quality of players, whereas Van Gaal's system is not. That's been proven over his decades as a football manager. People will say so and so isn't as good as X player or Y player, so United should go out and spend £30 million on him and £40 million on him. They think that's the only way to compete. Van Gaal's career as a coach shows otherwise.

At this stage, its unclear who will or won't respond best to Van Gaal's instructions. It is also difficult to judge how long new arrivals will take to adapt to Van Gaal's philosophy. One thing I am certain of is that when thinks click we will win the title.

The newness of Van Gaal's ways makes it exciting to think of where United will go under his management. The only thing that seems certain is that one or two players who nobody expects much of will end being crucial cogs in his machine.

 

[Rick88]

Any link (PM please)

 

[Theonas]

Can't find anything to disagree with in what you have said. In fact, I think you have hit the nail on your head with the point about where the gaps in our side actually are.

We are accustomed to depending on the individual attacking quality of players, whereas Van Gaal's system is not. That's been proven over his decades as a football manager. People will say so and so isn't as good as X player or Y player, so United should go out and spend £30 million on him and £40 million on him. They think that's the only way to compete. Van Gaal's career as a coach shows otherwise.

At this stage, its unclear who will or won't respond best to Van Gaal's instructions. It is also difficult to judge how long new arrivals will take to adapt to Van Gaal's philosophy. One thing I am certain of is that when thinks click we will win the title.

The newness of Van Gaal's ways makes it exciting to think of where United will go under his management. The only thing that seems certain is that one or two players who nobody expects much of will end being crucial cogs in his machine.

I would just like to add that this is not really exclusive to Van Gaal. He might take it to another level but he is far from the only manager who puts so much importance on the system when it comes to the offensive part of the game. I think Wenger, Guardiola, Klopp and a bunch of lesser known managers do the same thing. Like you said, in England people just assume they have better players which is what we have heard about Dortmund and certainly Barcelona. When City played Barcelona earlier in the CL, most pundits simply went for the "they have good players but not really the top, top quality Barcelona has". Yet if City bought Mathieu, Rakitic and Alba, most of the same pundits would be saying the same thing and come to the same conclusion. Most of these European top teams value and work on their systems so much that just as much as their players make a difference, their positioning and movement extract the best out of their players. In England, the assumption is always the same, send them out there, compete and do your best. When it doesn't work out; "well, the players are simply not at the same level". Very enjoyable discussion by the way so cheers for that.

 

[#07]

I would just like to add that this is not really exclusive to Van Gaal. He might take it to another level but he is far from the only manager who puts so much importance on the system when it comes to the offensive part of the game. I think Wenger, Guardiola, Klopp and a bunch of lesser known managers do the same thing. Like you said, in England people just assume they have better players which is what we have heard about Dortmund and certainly Barcelona. When City played Barcelona earlier in the CL, most pundits simply went for the "they have good players but not really the top, top quality Barcelona has". Yet if City bought Mathieu, Rakitic and Alba, most of the same pundits would be saying the same thing and come to the same conclusion. Most of these European top teams value and work on their systems so much that just as much as their players make a difference, their positioning and movement extract the best out of their players. In England, the assumption is always the same, send them out there, compete and do your best. When it doesn't work out; "well, the players are simply not at the same level". Very enjoyable discussion by the way so cheers for that.

Yeah, definitely mate. Like I said, there's not much you said that I don't agree with. Think you're very right about the pundits as well, they tend to say things like 'if he was still a top, top player would Madrid/Barca have let X go?' Case in point Di Maria and Yaya Toure. When they are playing well every one forgets they used to be at Madrid and Barcelona. However, when they are not you'll hear pundits say 'and that (referring to some flaw real or perceived) is probably why Madrid/Barcelona felt they could let him go'.

 

[Tim Henman]

Really? What did he say?

Just a sly dig here and there. Always making fun of the philosophy and how he talks. And now he is attributing our success to the players that Moyes bought.

 

[Theonas]

Just a sly dig here and there. Always making fun of the philosophy and how he talks. And now he is attributing our success to the players that Moyes bought.

Haha it's hard not to sound cliché about English pundits when they're so clichy in everything they say. Cheers for that!

 

[ManUArfa]

PS: ManUArfa, fan of Ben Arfa?

No. It's from a previous nickname of mine: 'arfa job.

See my location information to the left.

 

[VanGaalEra]

We don't really get to watch what's happening on the field off the ball when watching the game, so this was a good view and what was most pleasing was how in sync our defence was, they knew their roles and Smalling being a leader.

Great stuff.

 

[fishfingers15]

All said and done, Neviller seems to overplay Rooney's part. I watched the game and thought Rooney played well and I was surprised to see he had less touches than De Gea. Normally it would mean that it was a quiet game for Rooney, but watching the match, he seemed to be always involved. Neville's analysis seemed spot on, but somehow I thought he was overplaying Rooney and he made no mention of Fellaini, Young or Herrera about their jobs in attack.

 

[LARulz]

Bloody hell. These two absolutely shit on every other 'pundit' out there. It's so embarrassing how much better this is than BT Sport ever has been. BBC's argument for not going into so much detail is something I agree with and will cut them some slack. BT Sport have absolutely no excuse for being so shit.

 

[Sied]

All said and done, Neviller seems to overplay Rooney's part. I watched the game and thought Rooney played well and I was surprised to see he had less touches than De Gea. Normally it would mean that it was a quiet game for Rooney, but watching the match, he seemed to be always involved. Neville's analysis seemed spot on, but somehow I thought he was overplaying Rooney and he made no mention of Fellaini, Young or Herrera about their jobs in attack.

I think that's just because he tries to highlight things that aren't obvious to the average informed football fan. Most people didn't appreciate Rooney's contribution (or the sole striker in general in this system) whereas Fellaini, Young and Herrera's contributions were much more obvious. It's what sets his analysis apart from the basic post match analysis I'm listening to on ITV at the minute, where I'm not hearing anything I can't see for myself.

 

[saivet]

Bloody hell. These two absolutely shit on every other 'pundit' out there. It's so embarrassing how much better this is than BT Sport ever has been. BBC's argument for not going into so much detail is something I agree with and will cut them some slack. BT Sport have absolutely no excuse for being so shit.

BT Sport is relatively new. Hopefully, probably not, but hopefully they improve in time.

 

[LARulz]

BT Sport is relatively new. Hopefully, probably not, but hopefully they improve in time.

Then they need to get better pundits. They are giving stupid money to people who are clearly not suited to that role. They aren't even popular so I don't get what they are playing at

 

[ivaldo]

Then they need to get better pundits. They are giving stupid money to people who are clearly not suited to that role. They aren't even popular so I don't get what they are playing at

We will see Claire Balding doing the punditry soon, they've given her every other feckin' job.

 

[BobbyManc]

Then they need to get better pundits. They are giving stupid money to people who are clearly not suited to that role. They aren't even popular so I don't get what they are playing at

Hargreaves looks like he has the potential to know what he is on about, but other than him it's mainly just ex-Liverpool players (James, McManaman, Owen) who provide zero insight and just state the obvious. Watching Neville, sometimes you actually learn something and are made aware of something you hadn't given much thought to. BT need to stop just looking for a household name and get an ex-player who at least knows what he is on about and has some enthusiasm for his job.

 

[Melvyn]

Pundits need to stop spouting cliches that even the average pub-goer can talk about. 'Power, passion, determination' etc. I'd like to actually learn something when I watch the post match analysis.

 

[SteveJ]

The tv companies should quit signing pundits solely because they were 'name' players; this doesn't translate into capable pundits, let alone experts.

 

[MZX7]

Brilliant analysis by Carragher. I have to say that his analyses on this show outshine Neville's. Both are good but most of the times I feel that JC has a more analytical reading of the game.

A few points:

1. Rooney is in the team because he can have a brilliant influence even when not on the ball. Of course, when he is on the ball, he is either scoring or assisting his way into record books.

2. Smalling is definitely growing into the role of a calm and collected leader at the back. This is great, given that Evans/Valencia/Jones can have some moments of madness in any game

3. The sheer ball handling capability of Fellaini coupled with his physicality draws a lot of opposition towards him thereby opening up spaces for Mata/Herrera/Young to run into. Need back ups for Fellaini and Herrera. Can't think of one for Fellaini (seriously, does anyone know another BEAST footballer??) but
Miralem Pjanić of Roma could make a fine rotation for Herrera!

4. Considering that we have the second youngest team in the Premiership, the summer transfer buying should be more focused on the right fit more than big name signings

5. I've watched quite a few games of Pogba and while he's great at a lot of things, I do feel that he wouldn't fit into a highly disciplined outfit. LvG, I believe, will not sign him.

6. It will be very difficult for Valdés to step into fill De Gea's role should Dave leave. I really think that De Gea is a MUST keep

7. What I'd definitely like to see is a Carrick protégé (Ilkay Gundogan...if he can prove his return to fitness) coming in, a pacy winger on the right (Memphis Depay) to complement Di Maria on the left, another calm and collected CB (Mats Hummels or if we can get Bayern to sell Mehdi Benatia), one Rooney (striker) protégé (Kane?? says he's never gonna leave Spurs...they all say that, don't they?)...I still have my doubts about Wilson growing into a great striker...hope I'm proved wrong...

8. I'd also want to see Adnan alternating in a No.10 for us. He definitely has the talent and I truly believe that he can be as good as Hazard, if not better

9. Whoever the next manager is, I hope he is chosen more based on merit than on sentiment/nationality

10. Do our best to retain the backroom staff after LvG retires (I'm guessing United will be his swan song?). Whether it is Giggs who takes over or Klopp, they'll both benefit from the experienced backroom staff...Pep though might bring in a few of his own...

 

[JUPITER]

Hargreaves looks like he has the potential to know what he is on about, but other than him it's mainly just ex-Liverpool players (James, McManaman, Owen) who provide zero insight and just state the obvious. Watching Neville, sometimes you actually learn something and are made aware of something you hadn't given much thought to. BT need to stop just looking for a household name and get an ex-player who at least knows what he is on about and has some enthusiasm for his job.

Every time I've seen Hargreaves on BT he just seems incredibly bitter. To the point where it's almost uncomfortable to watch.

When he critiques a team there's almost a slightly 'bitchy' quality to his delivery, as opposed to Carra and Nev who seem to actually care about the points they critique.

Pundits need to stop spouting cliches that even the average pub-goer can talk about. 'Power, passion, determination' etc. I'd like to actually learn something when I watch the post match analysis.

What you're saying is you want a pundit to really 'roll his sleeves up and get stuck in there'...?

The tv companies should quit signing pundits solely because they were 'name' players; this doesn't translate into capable pundits, let alone experts.

Quite, and in case anyone were in any doubt, lets just remind of ourselves of some gems from someone who currently gets paid actual real money to talk and write about football...

And with Nev and Carra's insightful revolution of punditry, your Lawros, Shearers and Hansens are left looking decidedly primitive. Worry not, MOTD watchers, the BBC have found a fresh partnership to usher in a new age of high level knowledge...