Is the best way to stop that fast defensive players? Jones and Valencia aren't slouches.
Tonight's MNF (City demolition)...
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) was joined by comedian Ali Woods to look back at the best and worst moments of a rollercoaster season with the annual United Hour Awards.
Has Ten Hag been sacked yet? We're not sure and we hope not, but it's looking more likely as the days pass.
Who should replace him and why is it taking so long to make a decision?
I don't think that's really an option with Smalling and Jones in the middle. They're both lightening quick. I don't know if there's a striker in the league capable of getting away from either in a foot race and then De Gea's sweeping has been excellent this season.
Smalling, the leader 
If we continue playing this way then I don’t see many EPL playing their way through the middle. It was the same with Barca, teams in Spain (usually much more technical then in England) just couldn’t hold on to the ball against them. So I can see a lot of opponents trying to play long ball against us but again, we have rapid defenders (I love the way they stand in line, always on their toes, ready to burst into a foot race). Blind is the only one who is unlikely to win one, but I expect Shaw to be our main left back soon (what happened to him?). Even with Daley in defence, this is superb way of defending if the whole team understands it.
This. So tired of hearing about us being "battered" by City that night. We actually played fairly decent in that game, but lost our heads a bit at the end + City were amazingly clinical.
We've had some terrible, terrible games against them the last years, but that wasn't one of the worst, despite the final result.
Both games under Moyes were much worse, when a 4-0 defeat felt just about right, because we all went into the game not really expecting anything else.
The 0-1 defeat at Old Trafford in the 2011-2012 was also much, much worse. Wrestling for the title, and we just caved in.
Some people think City cut through us at will in the first 15 minutes.. Sure they were better and more dangerous but once we got into the game all changed. Also City didnt just decide - fe.k it we wont play like this anymore. There's 2 sides to it, they stopped playing like that cause we got back in the game, shaped up and brought the game to them, dominated them and game went how we wanted it to.
YOu mean at Emtpihad?
I might be wrong, but wasn't it at Old Trafford? Kompany's header?
It was away.
Alright, my bad.
Can't find this on YouTube, anyone know where I can find it?
This is the bit about the derby.
Great analysis, I really wish Sky would give you the option to watch the game live in that Angle. It shows the pitch so much better, and you get to see everything off the ball.
I feel a lot of people were thinking LVG was a bit of a charlatan, all talk but not really doing anything - this shows how much the team has improved and 4-3-3 is his real winning formula.
We should now definitely be aiming our new recruits to fit into this system, and with a good pre season I feel we can hit the ground running. It's certainly an exciting prospect for the future.
I feel a lot of people were thinking LVG was a bit of a charlatan, all talk but not really doing anything - this shows how much the team has improved and 4-3-3 is his real winning formula.
We should now definitely be aiming our new recruits to fit into this system, and with a good pre season I feel we can hit the ground running. It's certainly an exciting prospect for the future.
Maybe I should rephrase and say its probably easier to drill less gifted players than more gifted ones?
You're right Pep's Barcelona had wonderful players who bought into what he wanted to do. However, the issues Pep had with Zlatan that you mentioned sort of illustrate the point I wanted to make: Naturally gifted players can find it difficult to accept being told to stick to a rigid plan. Also, Zlatan wasn't the only one.
Many of the players Pep inherited he moved out fairly rapidly, replacing them with La Masia graduates more inclined to respect him for his legendary status at Barca. Its not unusual for big players like Eto'o and Zlatan to think they know what gets the best out of them, and for them to push back against coaches they feel mismanage them. Its not that much of a leap to see why Zlatan thought the attitude of the Barca cantera products was childlike.
I don't disagree that ego is part of the equation. Still, the better a player is the more big headed he's likely to be. For instance, Messi does not get on with Luis Enrique. Messi took pretty much half a season to accept Lucho's decision to play him inside right, and that acceptance came only after his professional pride was bruised by losing the Ballon d'or to Ronaldo. Unsurprisingly as soon as Messi stopped resisting the new role Barcelona got into title chasing form. However, its not difficult to see what might have happened had he continued his battle with Lucho.
Players who aren't elite level are less likely to have these kind of battles with their managers. Its not impossible to drill a side of exceptional players, especially if you can capture their imaginations as Pep has successfully at Barcelona and Bayern. However, I think the task is considerably harder than it is getting into the heads of less extraordinarily talented players.
In many ways, the absolute authority of the manager at Old Trafford and the tactical naivety of the Premier League, makes Man Utd the perfect place for Van Gaal. In England, and especially at Man Utd, the manager's word is law. Plus, English players are (generally speaking) not taught to develop their own ideas on the game to the same extent as Dutchmen or Spaniards. With Holland, Barcelona and Bayern it all fell apart for Van Gaal, he had too many people above and below him questioning him. At United he won't get that. I'm sure he must feel sort of like he did 20 years ago back at Ajax.
I cannot believe @matherto watched either Sunday's game or the 1-6 game.
City started well last Sunday but we were dominant from about the 12th minute, City did not cut through us at will. The City players used the direct ball to exploit our high line with the pace of Navas and Aguero. It worked a couple of times but as soon as we shook of the nerves and started playing they were gone.
As for the 1-6, we were much better in the first half and Balotelli scored against the run of play. Even after Evans's sending off the game was very tight until Fletcher scored. However, once we got it back to 1-3 Old Trafford began encouraging the players to chase a draw. In the last 10 minutes, desperate to try and rescue a point, the players threw caution to the wind, committed to attacking, and got hit on the counter repeatedly. It was a bit crazy, given we had 10 men against a very good City side, but we're Man Utd we don't go down without swinging.
If you want to point to a game where we were comprehensively dispatched by City, the 4-1 at their place last season would be it. We were never in the game.
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No, that year we lost to them 1-6 at OT and 1:0 at their place, it was Kompany header though, you're right about that.
I tend to agree with this. I came away from the game thinking that Aguero's first 20 minutes gave an absolute masterclass as to how to play the lone striker; he hounded our defenders, caused unforced errors and dragged us all over the place. Obviously we stifled his supply after that, but it highlighted the difference for me. Rooney was far more disciplined than usual and worked hard, which is great, however he was still quite sloppy in possession and didn't hugely influence the game.
I think it's a bit of a stretch to say that Van Gaal might think that was his best performance; merely because he stood with discipline between 2 defenders and worked hard.
I agree, I can't see Zouma coming into midfield. I would predict that Ramires will come in and Cesc pushed further forward.
Too many armchair Football Manager diehards, who think a manager's job is simply picking the right formation.
I'm glad to see that he's proving his detractors wrong, and it really is exciting to think that in the next few years, we'll see a well coached United side, with massive spending power, really take it to Europe. We underachieved in Europe in the Fergie years due to tactical naivety (they were exciting games though), and it's high time we added a few more UCL trophies to the cabinet.
I do think people were getting confused with all the formation changes, and some may even suspect that he lucked into 4-3-3 or stumbled onto it. Whether he was truly going to try this formation if Falcao/RVP remained fit is hard to say, but I think eventually he would have. I guess luckily for us the injuries forced his hand, but I am sure he will not be changing it once they return.
What scares me is that i defended Moyes right till the death last year in the Newbie section of this forum.
However, i can imagine him sitting in his lovely 6 bedroom Villa in Spain, wearing a string vest covered in gravy stains watching Neville and Carraghers analysis last night eating a beef and tomato pot noodle, developing a major head ache whilst thinking ''WTF?!?!?!?!?!?! Just lump it to Fellaini for god sake, these guys are clueless''
However, i can imagine him sitting in his lovely 6 bedroom Villa in Spain, wearing a string vest covered in gravy stains watching Neville and Carraghers analysis last night eating a beef and tomato pot noodle, developing a major head ache whilst thinking ''WTF?!?!?!?!?!?! Just lump it to Fellaini for god sake, these guys are clueless''
Sorry, I am work so it's a bite more difficult to respond but but you (and the others that quoted me) may be correct in that I underestimated the speed of our defenders.
It may be fun to take a proper look at our tactics and see how we would counter them. Could be a good discussion
It may be fun to take a proper look at our tactics and see how we would counter them. Could be a good discussion
Do you remember both finals vs Barcelona? especially the Rome one? We started the game much better than Barcelona and could and maybe even should have scored. Barcelona sorted them selves out after about 15 minutes and we were never in the game again for the rest of the match. Sounds pretty similar to Sunday doesn't it...
As for your Carrick point, its really funny I keep hearing that City 'stopped' doing that. There's no way in hell, Pallegrini switched tactics after the first 10 minutes when his team was dominating. Either Milner stopped doing what he was doing on his own accord, or the United team and Carrick adjusted to being pressed. Id like to think it was the later.
I agree with their analysis on the defensive shape and how we attack, that's why it's stupid hearing people say that the way we play now is down to using 4-3-3 and having Rooney up top, it's such a myopic way of looking at football. I can't remember how many times Valencia was under pressure BUT still managed to pick a pass and find a United player [previously he'll just hoof it somewhere], we're seeing less hoofing even from Smalling and Jones, look at that defensive high-line, see how the players are moving together, watch the distance between CB and striker always being about the same when City have the ball, if you think this kind of improvement is simply down to 4-3-3 and having Rooney upfront, I don't know what to tell you.I think Enland don't really appreciate "coaching". We're looking like a very well coached team and I like it, but it was coming, we were trying to do this things before, we were just slow, cumbersome and unsure [which is normal when you learn new things anyway]. The signs have been there before we beat Spurs. Tactically, LVG is on a very high level, only Mourinho is better in the PL. This weekend will be a game of chess, and could go either way, but one thing is certain, we'll go there and try to impose our game, we won't be outplayed. I don't agree with the analysis regarding Rooney, I think Rooney was poor as he couldn't control the ball or even find his man with most of his passes, but he worked hard and occupied the CBs, something he has always done very well before.
The worst part is he wasn't even able to do that one thing right - playing Fellaini like some deep lying playmaker
The analysis was great and goes somewhat to prove what we have been aiming for but it takes time for it all to click.
I'm surprised the number of people saying "I said play Herrera months ago, I said 3 at the back was never going to work" blah blah.
There were reasons for all of these decisions and to think that simply choosing this team and going 4-3-3 at the start of the season and we'd be seeing performances like this is ludicrous.
Whether the reshuffling around and learning something completely new in 3 at the back made things take a little longer than usual, who knows. If the current 4-3-3 was forced rather than completely by choice - probably not. But the formation doesn't matter as much as the system and philosophy - I'm starting to sound like LvG now - the point is that things are starting to click and we've not had to put up with injuries so we've been able to persist with the same team.
Others that haven't been playing still need to pick it up.
But in any case - this is the making of a brilliant team. We might need to swap some more players and it'll take time for the new additions to pick it up, but this is going to be something special in the making.. I can't wait. I'm unsure we'll see the fruition next year, but the year after I expect we'll be real contenders for the treble.
I'm surprised the number of people saying "I said play Herrera months ago, I said 3 at the back was never going to work" blah blah.
There were reasons for all of these decisions and to think that simply choosing this team and going 4-3-3 at the start of the season and we'd be seeing performances like this is ludicrous.
Whether the reshuffling around and learning something completely new in 3 at the back made things take a little longer than usual, who knows. If the current 4-3-3 was forced rather than completely by choice - probably not. But the formation doesn't matter as much as the system and philosophy - I'm starting to sound like LvG now - the point is that things are starting to click and we've not had to put up with injuries so we've been able to persist with the same team.
Others that haven't been playing still need to pick it up.
But in any case - this is the making of a brilliant team. We might need to swap some more players and it'll take time for the new additions to pick it up, but this is going to be something special in the making.. I can't wait. I'm unsure we'll see the fruition next year, but the year after I expect we'll be real contenders for the treble.
Don't worry yourself mate, don't you know we're never good enough to do anything on our own, anytime we win, people like that poster keep saying it's either the opposition stopped, allowed us, wasn't good enough or didn't turn up. It's never that United outplayed them, I'm used to it, you should too. I can't believe someone with a brain and make a statement like "if City had continued doing what they were doing" Lol, so City were doing something right, then decided to stop it and let United play haha...
Shaw is faster than Navas to be fair to him.
I reckon the biggest issue has been players understanding what they should and shouldn't be doing. Neville mentioned Rooney's normal tendancies would have seen him sitting in midfield looking for the ball after tracking back but on Sunday he was winning the ball and getting straight back into position up front which allowed a defence splitting pass from Carrick. If Rooney stays in midfield we see this as total football and Rooney getting stuck in for the team but in fact its allowing the defenders to push up and limits the opportunities for a killer ball.
Herrera said something similar in an interview that he had to curb his tendancy to chase the ball, it seems to have clicked for him and he's been involved in so many of our goals recently it can't be a coincidence.
Its a style of play we're not used to, SAF always favoured the wingers with flair abel to counter attack at speed but LVG's positional based tactics have been just as incisive.
Herrera said something similar in an interview that he had to curb his tendancy to chase the ball, it seems to have clicked for him and he's been involved in so many of our goals recently it can't be a coincidence.
Its a style of play we're not used to, SAF always favoured the wingers with flair abel to counter attack at speed but LVG's positional based tactics have been just as incisive.
Yup, think a lot of people misunderstood him.
Summary - LVG has been trying to tactically change a players mind set that he's had all his life to suit the system and would've been very very please with how Rooney played the perfect game in terms of his role.
When he combines that with goal scoring he'll be the most important attacking player for us.
In that particular shape and line-up, the evidence suggests that it was the right way of utilising Wayne. Most people going to games aren't going to sit there and analytically dissect one players' tactical instructions off the ball so it makes sense that such notion is seen as "meh, he wasn't involved much". In reality though, as put forward by Neville, he was very much involved despite not being on the ball.
But when the ball was played to him, how often did it stick? I have to watch the game again to see, but first impressions were that not a lot was sticking. Even in the second half when he wanted that free kick from Mangala, the reason he didn't get it was because the ball had bounced off him.
I'm repeating myself here but yeah, the ends justify the means. We won and we won won. But there were times when Rooney couldn't even control the football, and those are basics.
My thoughts pretty much as I watched the discussion; I understood the thinking maybe a bit better, though I still miss the energy and committment and personality of Rafael. Maybe he can change, if Wazza can. But this explanation (well done to both Neville and Carragher) greatly boosts my optimism for next year, and even for next week. We are seeing other managers, the ghoul from City, even Mourhino, trying to figure out ways to stop us rather than playing their own game.
Interesting post, but I don't think that's even the whole story. Van Gaal has different levels of rigidity for different players. Sometimes for example you had Fellaini on the right, sometimes left, sometimes deep. Di Maria seems to be given more of a free rein when he comes on. There is a kind of fluidity demanded in that every player learns the positions of others; there is the thing with the total psychology of the person, which I think if we get another year of it, Manchester United will be simply unrecognisable. And fecking brilliant.
One may argue that he wasn't involved as much, when on the ball, as he kept giving it away due to his inability to control it. In fact, the few times he controlled the ball, in dangerous areas, he put Mata in and played a delightful ball, with the outside of his right foot, to Fellaini; which demonstrates what should be expected of him.
He followed his instructions, which is the least you can expect from a player; however, he was really inconsistent with regards to every other aspect of his game.
Guys I am leaning back in my chair and going wow! Look back at the last decade of commentary by ex pros, in Ireland and the UK. Dunphy, Giles, Brian Kerr even Brady in Ireland, Keano, Dixon, Savage, Shearer, Keown. One thing gets them all going; failures in fulfilling defensive duties. How a goal chance might have been prevented. How to cover, to organise at set pieces. Never about attack. We left that in the lap of the gods, or the almost inhuman skill sets of the Georgie Best's the Eric Cantona's etc, or in another sense the opportunism of the Sheringhams or whatever. No need to go back and make this a judgement on Fergie, but to look forward to a new way of doing things that completely re-writes the coaching books. Terrific post, @Theonas.
Rooney has always been an intelligent and selfless footballer though. It was always going to be much easier for him to adapt to LvG's demands than it will be for Rafael.
I think Rooney is an unselfish and committed servant to the club. He has a prick of an agent but he is a true red and deserves massive respect. This level of discipline is new to him, is what Neville was saying. I knew that WR was doing something right when I looked at a replay of the full game, I gave him a 7; but Neville's analysis makes it crystal clear. Well done Wayne; his contribution was just as important with 35 touches and wrecking Kompany's head (what is it? Silent Domination?) as his stunning overhead a few years ago.
Edit: ahh, @Unlikely lad - and yeah, I suspect you are right, unfortunately.
Has everyone stopped hating Neville again now that we are winning?
I still don't like him, and don't agree with his analysis or opinion that Rooney played well.