Tonight's MNF (City demolition)...

[#07]

Watching tonight's analysis helps to explain why the unfashionable players in our squad are succeeding under Van Gaal.

I can imagine if you were a naturally gifted footballer playing for Van Gaal might be frustrating. If your instinct is to drift around the pitch, without much thought about team shape, and do things off the cuff, Van Gaal's rigidly drilled attacking set up might feel like a straight jacket.

However, if you are just a solid footballer who is willing to listen to instructions and execute them Van Gaal must be like an oracle. Players like Young will have no difficulty going out onto the pitch and just doing what Van Gaal says. Young knows he's not, well, Angel Di Maria. So if Van Gaal tells him to run here when Carrick has the ball, or run there when Fellaini does, Young will just carry out the instructions. He won't be thinking 'but I'm good enough to dribble past 2-3 men on my own, why should I not go looking for the ball?' like players of supreme talent will. That's exemplified by how Van Gaal fell out with Rivaldo or how his first stint as Holland boss blew up.

Watching the analysis of Rooney's work in the Van Gaal system, it became even more clear to me why Olic preferred Van Gaal over Gomez at Bayern. A player like Gomez is never going to be content just occupying centre halves to make space for other players, he'll want to be scoring goals himself. While the likes of Olic will be willing runners all day long without worrying about their goal returns, giving Van Gaal someone he can rely on to pin back the opposition back line and allow his midfield room to work in.

Van Gaal is a system manager, who by coaching is able to make the sum greater than the parts. Guess that's how he could replace Clarence Seedorf with Kiki Musampa and still make it to two Champions League finals running. Van Gaal's better suited to managing good, competent, obedient players who will respond to his methods than he is to coaching brilliant, unpredictable and temperamental players who wanna express themselves.

 

[Trizy]

They're talking about United after the Liverpool game too?

Will have to watch that when it finishes

No I was watching the link of the pre-game while the game was nearing an end, probably should've stated that when I said they were moving onto a new topic ''now''. Sorry.

 

[Sylar]

I think this is why Herrera was out of the team for a while despite all of us obviously wanting him in. Herrera was going all over the place asking for the ball which you would expect from a midfielder. But in the system hes pretty much focused on the right (with herrera and Valencia). LVG likes his discipline on the pitch but its nice seeing whats happening and the analysis on top of that.

Carragher and Neville did a fantastic job (as I was worried most of the time would be spent on how bad / lazy City were)

 

[Borys]

This type of super-high defensive line requires fast defenders but I think it will work wonders in the EPL. Not a lot of teams are used to such small amount of space in the middle, most teams will struggle. I expect 70-80% of possession next season regularly.

Next step is to teach De Gea how to do a Neuer-esque clearances

 

[Trizy]

This type of super-high defensive line requires fast defenders but I think it will work wonders in the EPL. Not a lot of teams are used to such small amount of space in the middle, most teams will struggle. I expect 70-80% of possession next season regularly.

Next step is to teach De Gea how to do a Neuer-esque clearances

Barca done this style of pressing in their best years of the club with Pique and Puyol in defense, probably a slower pairing than say Vidic and Terry

 

[Shyftyy]

This type of super-high defensive line requires fast defenders but I think it will work wonders in the EPL. Not a lot of teams are used to such small amount of space in the middle, most teams will struggle. I expect 70-80% of possession next season regularly.

Next step is to teach De Gea how to do a Neuer-esque clearances

I felt DDG was pretty Neuer-esque on that first goal by Young

 

[Borys]

Watching tonight's analysis helps to explain why the unfashionable players in our squad are succeeding under Van Gaal.

I can imagine if you were a naturally gifted footballer playing for Van Gaal might be frustrating. If your instinct is to drift around the pitch, without much thought about team shape, and do things off the cuff, Van Gaal's rigidly drilled attacking set up might feel like a straight jacket.

However, if you are just a solid footballer who is willing to listen to instructions and execute them Van Gaal must be like an oracle. Players like Young, will have no difficulty going out onto the pitch and just doing what Van Gaal says. Young knows he's not, well, Angel Di Maria. So if Van Gaal tells him to run here when Carrick has the ball, or run there when Fellaini does, Young will just carry out the instructions. He won't be thinking 'but I'm good enough to dribble past 2-3 men on my own, why should I not go looking for the ball?' like players of supreme talent will. That's exemplified by how Van Gaal fell out with Rivaldo or how his first stint as Holland boss blew up.

Watching the analysis of Rooney's work in the Van Gaal system, it became even more clear to me why Olic preferred Van Gaal over Gomez at Bayern. A player like Gomez is never going to be content just occupying centre halves to make space for other players, he'll want to be scoring goals himself. While the likes of Olic will be willing runners all day long without worrying about their goal returns, giving Van Gaal someone he can rely on to pin back the opposition back line and allow his midfield room to work in.

Van Gaal is a system manager, who by coaching is able to make the sum greater than the parts. Guess that's how he could replace Clarence Seedorf with Kiki Musampa and still make it to two Champions League finals running. Van Gaal's better suited to managing good, competent, obedient players who will respond to his methods than he is to coaching brilliant, unpredictable and temperamental players who wanna express themselves.

Good post. The bolded part is exactly what I’ve been reading about here in Poland about Di Maria. A lot of people seem to think he’s very far from being van Gaal type of player.

Thinking about it, van Gaal seems like a perfect fit for our squad (relatively few world-class players for a top team, but a lot of intelligent and hardworking players).

Barca done this style of pressing in their best years of the club with Pique and Puyol in defense, probably a slower pairing than say Vidic and Terry

Well we don't have to worry about that at all with Smalling, Jones and Valencia in defence line.

 

[Attila]

This type of super-high defensive line requires fast defenders but I think it will work wonders in the EPL. Not a lot of teams are used to such small amount of space in the middle, most teams will struggle. I expect 70-80% of possession next season regularly.

Next step is to teach De Gea how to do a Neuer-esque clearances

Didn't De Gea do that like 3 times yesterday

 

[cyberman]

Yeah that can be an issue it you're focusing too much on one moment. When a goal is conceded, you can always say that any of the defenders could do better. 20/20 hindsight. Both Neville and Carragher had a few dodgy moments as does every defender.

I agree.
Jamie more than Gary thinks while talking a bit too much, it's not thought through or prepared when he says it.
He made this big point tonight about how well City started and the subsequent trailing off shows how their energy can't last 90 minutes anymore.
It may well be that it can't last the full 90, but you have to assume it should last longer than the opening 10 minutes.
It's a good listen but not this ground breaking excellent piece of analysis IMO

 

[Raptori]

Watching tonight's analysis helps to explain why the unfashionable players in our squad are succeeding under Van Gaal.

I can imagine if you were a naturally gifted footballer playing for Van Gaal might be frustrating. If your instinct is to drift around the pitch, without much thought about team shape, and do things off the cuff, Van Gaal's rigidly drilled attacking set up might feel like a straight jacket.

However, if you are just a solid footballer who is willing to listen to instructions and execute them Van Gaal must be like an oracle. Players like Young, will have no difficulty going out onto the pitch and just doing what Van Gaal says. Young knows he's not, well, Angel Di Maria. So if Van Gaal tells him to run here when Carrick has the ball, or run there when Fellaini does, Young will just carry out the instructions. He won't be thinking 'but I'm good enough to dribble past 2-3 men on my own, why should I not go looking for the ball?' like players of supreme talent will. That's exemplified by how Van Gaal fell out with Rivaldo or how his first stint as Holland boss blew up.

Watching the analysis of Rooney's work in the Van Gaal system, it became even more clear to me why Olic preferred Van Gaal over Gomez at Bayern. A player like Gomez is never going to be content just occupying centre halves to make space for other players, he'll want to be scoring goals himself. While the likes of Olic will be willing runners all day long without worrying about their goal returns, giving Van Gaal someone he can rely on to pin back the opposition back line and allow his midfield room to work in.

Van Gaal is a system manager, who by coaching is able to make the sum greater than the parts. Guess that's how he could replace Clarence Seedorf with Kiki Musampa and still make it to two Champions League finals running. Van Gaal's better suited to managing good, competent, obedient players who will respond to his methods than he is to coaching brilliant, unpredictable and temperamental players who wanna express themselves.

Thing is, it's incredibly similar to what Barca did when they were the best team in the world, they just did it using some of the best players in the world. I've often seen people say that the reason for Guardiola's success wasn't his playing style or the players he had, it's the fact that he was able to convince those great players to play his way.

I don't see a reason to assume LVG cannot do that - after all, he's managed to persuade Wayne bloody Rooney to develop some tactical discipline, something that even Fergie apparently couldn't manage.

 

[Macern]

Watching tonight's analysis helps to explain why the unfashionable players in our squad are succeeding under Van Gaal.

I can imagine if you were a naturally gifted footballer playing for Van Gaal might be frustrating. If your instinct is to drift around the pitch, without much thought about team shape, and do things off the cuff, Van Gaal's rigidly drilled attacking set up might feel like a straight jacket.

However, if you are just a solid footballer who is willing to listen to instructions and execute them Van Gaal must be like an oracle. Players like Young, will have no difficulty going out onto the pitch and just doing what Van Gaal says. Young knows he's not, well, Angel Di Maria. So if Van Gaal tells him to run here when Carrick has the ball, or run there when Fellaini does, Young will just carry out the instructions. He won't be thinking 'but I'm good enough to dribble past 2-3 men on my own, why should I not go looking for the ball?' like players of supreme talent will. That's exemplified by how Van Gaal fell out with Rivaldo or how his first stint as Holland boss blew up.

Watching the analysis of Rooney's work in the Van Gaal system, it became even more clear to me why Olic preferred Van Gaal over Gomez at Bayern. A player like Gomez is never going to be content just occupying centre halves to make space for other players, he'll want to be scoring goals himself. While the likes of Olic will be willing runners all day long without worrying about their goal returns, giving Van Gaal someone he can rely on to pin back the opposition back line and allow his midfield room to work in.

Van Gaal is a system manager, who by coaching is able to make the sum greater than the parts. Guess that's how he could replace Clarence Seedorf with Kiki Musampa and still make it to two Champions League finals running. Van Gaal's better suited to managing good, competent, obedient players who will respond to his methods than he is to coaching brilliant, unpredictable and temperamental players who wanna express themselves.

Absolutely amazing post.

 

[Señor]

The point about Rooney is interesting because yes his off the ball work was good, and obviously to the instructions that Van Gaal would've given. However what about on the ball. Yes he assisted Mata but most people came away from the ground not thinking much of Rooneys performance for a reason imo. Making the right runs and occupying the right spaces is fantastic but should they come at the expense of basic ball control and quality in the final third?

Like someone already said, RVP is capable of following those same instructions but with better build up play and ball control, in my opinion at least. It's not as if you have to have serious pace or mobility to do what Rooney did that Nev and Carra highlighted, just your average footballers ability to run and a functioning brain.

What is funny to me is that I think RVP and Falcao could probably carry out those same instructions. Rooney maybe got a bit lucky that he was the one fit when the system came about. It's no secret that RVP and Falcao have always been better lone strikers than when they have a partner, better even than Rooney historically.

Anyway, I don't want this to sound negative, just an interesting thought I think.

I agree. I think Neville was talking a lot of bollocks when he said that performance could be seen as one of Rooney's best. I mean it was ok, better than we all originally thought having watched the match but that was nowhere near one of Rooney's best games. I think they made something out of nothing and like @cyberman said earlier, if we'd have lost that, we'd be criticising Rooney.

 

[Theonas]

One of the most interesting things about Gary's analysis is his claim that British coaches do not focus on attacking drills the same way they do about defensive drills which something I assume most fans suspected for a long time. I find this directly linked to English teams performances in Europe, our own inability to truly dominate Europe despite having some wonderful players and the general myth about our players not being good enough technically compared to other European countries. There is this deep ingrained mindset in the English pundits, players and public that there are talented footballers who go out to express themselves and limited footballers who set out to stop said talented ones. This therefore means that the game is about learning how to defend through bravery, tackling and positioning and scoring through the raw talent of your offensive players ie: pacey wingers, skillful attacking midfielders and powerful central forwards.

I believe this instinctive approach to the offensive part of the game is the reason we dominated the PL for so long since most other teams in the league have the same approach but also the reason we fell short in Europe. It is also the reason most English managers will talk 2 months in advance about the transfer market and how they need to "get someone in to score goals". The public is the same, there is an automatic belief about how the absolute quality of a player so when they don't show it, the response is automatically that there is a need to simply buy better. Now obviously there are players who can change games and ones who are simply average, the point though is that through dismissing the value of creating a system that helps the players, we never help our own. Xavi and Iniesta for example are two of the greatest midfielders ever but like Carragher pointed out, isn't it a bit easier to play in a team that offers so many passing options compared to what Carrick for example had to face? Two wide men, an advanced striker and a deep defense. Every time we played a big team that pressed us, he looked out of ideas and panicky. The pundits and public alike instead of pointing out that the shape of the team made it extremely difficult for him simply concluded that he isn't good enough.

I am not claiming that Carrick is of the same level as Xavi, nor am I claiming that now we are the new Barcelona and that we were garbage under Fergie. I wouldn't change the Fergie years for anything and we were the luckiest fans in the world. I just accept that we had some clear handicaps with the way we played that I can see applies to most English teams and by extension the National Team. I only wonder what Keane and Scholes would have been capable of if they had the compactness and support that continental teams offer to their midfielders. On the other hand, maybe they would not have been able to dominate the league as much as they did. We can't have it all after but it is interesting to see where this new approach is going to take us. It is also the reason why I gave up on predicting what we needed in terms of personnel as it is simply possible to tell what the potential of the players we have since we have never seen them with the benefit of tactical coaching that their continental counter parts enjoy.

 

[Thisistheone]

Interesting stuff from Carragher and Nev. That bit about us having 25, 30m distance between the centre backs and Rooney made me think of Sacchi at Milan. So compact off the ball, and proof of van Gaal putting in some serious work on the training pitch. Not having European football this year has surely been a big help to him.

 

[Thisistheone]

Watching tonight's analysis helps to explain why the unfashionable players in our squad are succeeding under Van Gaal.

I can imagine if you were a naturally gifted footballer playing for Van Gaal might be frustrating. If your instinct is to drift around the pitch, without much thought about team shape, and do things off the cuff, Van Gaal's rigidly drilled attacking set up might feel like a straight jacket.

However, if you are just a solid footballer who is willing to listen to instructions and execute them Van Gaal must be like an oracle. Players like Young, will have no difficulty going out onto the pitch and just doing what Van Gaal says. Young knows he's not, well, Angel Di Maria. So if Van Gaal tells him to run here when Carrick has the ball, or run there when Fellaini does, Young will just carry out the instructions. He won't be thinking 'but I'm good enough to dribble past 2-3 men on my own, why should I not go looking for the ball?' like players of supreme talent will. That's exemplified by how Van Gaal fell out with Rivaldo or how his first stint as Holland boss blew up.

Watching the analysis of Rooney's work in the Van Gaal system, it became even more clear to me why Olic preferred Van Gaal over Gomez at Bayern. A player like Gomez is never going to be content just occupying centre halves to make space for other players, he'll want to be scoring goals himself. While the likes of Olic will be willing runners all day long without worrying about their goal returns, giving Van Gaal someone he can rely on to pin back the opposition back line and allow his midfield room to work in.

Van Gaal is a system manager, who by coaching is able to make the sum greater than the parts. Guess that's how he could replace Clarence Seedorf with Kiki Musampa and still make it to two Champions League finals running. Van Gaal's better suited to managing good, competent, obedient players who will respond to his methods than he is to coaching brilliant, unpredictable and temperamental players who wanna express themselves.

Good post. The Olic point is a good one. I remember back when we played that Bayern team, thinking Olic puts in such a shift off the ball. Can see why van Gaal loves that.

 

[Manny]

I'm glad Neville spotted the bit about Rooney because I would never have picked that up and I agree with Carragher about Smalling fast becoming our leader in defense.

 

[Macern]

One of the most interesting things about Gary's analysis is his claim that British coaches do not focus on attacking drills the same way they do about defensive drills which something I assume most fans suspected for a long time. I find this directly linked to English teams performances in Europe, our own inability to truly dominate Europe despite having some wonderful players and the general myth about our players not being good enough technically compared to other European countries. There is this deep ingrained mindset in the English pundits, players and public that there are talented footballers who go out to express themselves and limited footballers who set out to stop said talented ones. This therefore means that the game is about learning how to defend through bravery, tackling and positioning and scoring through the raw talent of your offensive players ie: pacey wingers, skillful attacking midfielders and powerful central forwards.

I believe this instinctive approach to the offensive part of the game is the reason we dominated the PL for so long since most other teams in the league have the same approach but also the reason we fell short in Europe. It is also the reason most English managers will talk 2 months in advance about the transfer market and how they need to "get someone in to score goals". The public is the same, there is an automatic belief about how the absolute quality of a player so when they don't show it, the response is automatically that there is a need to simply buy better. Now obviously there are players who can change games and ones who are simply average, the point though is that through dismissing the value of creating a system that helps the players, we never help our own. Xavi and Iniesta for example are two of the greatest midfielders ever but like Carragher pointed out, isn't it a bit easier to play in a team that offers so many passing options compared to what Carrick for example had to face? Two wide men, an advanced striker and a deep defense. Every time we played a big team that pressed us, he looked out of ideas and panicky. The pundits and public alike instead of pointing out that the shape of the team made it extremely difficult for him simply concluded that he isn't good enough.

I am not claiming that Carrick is of the same level as Xavi, nor am I claiming that now we are the new Barcelona and that we were garbage under Fergie. I wouldn't change the Fergie years for anything and we were the luckiest fans in the world. I just accept that we had some clear handicaps with the way we played that I can see applies to most English teams and by extension the National Team. I only wonder what Keane and Scholes would have been capable of if they had the compactness and support that continental teams offer to their midfielders. On the other hand, maybe they would not have been able to dominate the league as much as they did. We can't have it all after but it is interesting to see where this new approach is going to take us. It is also the reason why I gave up on predicting what we needed in terms of personnel as it is simply possible to tell what the potential of the players we have since we have never seen them with the benefit of tactical coaching that their continental counter parts enjoy.

Great post, I agree 100%

 

[Berbaclass]

Excellent analysis. Really made me smile to think that this is our team, how far they have come

 

[Skills]

Watching Smalling haul that line up every time there was a negative pass was brilliant. Every time we step up with that pace it cut 3-4 players out of the game and restricted almost all dangerous passing avenues, superb.

Yep. Good to see him finally get some credit in the media. He's really taken the leadership mantle on this season - highlight was probably when him leading two kids in McNair and Blackett at Arsenal away.

 

[Rado_N]

To be honest I usually find that in depth analysis with touch screens and pens pretty boring and OTT, but I enjoyed that one.

Probably more down to the subject matter, but still it's always nice to hear a Scouser compare United to Barcelona. If you can bear the accent for long enough, of course.

 

[DWelbz19]

Watching Smalling haul that line up every time there was a negative pass was brilliant. Every time we step up with that pace it cut 3-4 players out of the game and restricted almost all dangerous passing avenues, superb.

Fast becoming an excellent defender. He always had the talent, it's now he's growing into the character that his abilities need to match.

 

[Ramshock]

Interesting about how they think Mourinho will line up Chelsea against us. Zouma v Fellaini would be a battle and a half

 

[Tarrou]

Gary didn't say it was one of Rooney's best performances did he? I thought he said something like "it wouldn't surprise me if Van Gaal thought that was one of Rooney's best performances". On account of him being so disciplined.

Anyway, great analysis from Neville and Carragher today.

 

[FlawlessThaw]

Compare the analysis from Neville and Carragher to the jokes on BT Sport Football Tonight, it's laughable. Hargreaves basically came out with the usual cliches that City lacked spirit, fight and were unlucky with our first goal which changed the match. No real depth

 

[saivet]

Compare the analysis from Neville and Carragher to the jokes on BT Sport Football Tonight, it's laughable. Hargreaves basically came out with the usual cliches that City lacked spirit, fight and were unlucky with our first goal which changed the match. No real depth

I just can't take BT Sport seriously. Never bother even listening to their analysis. A bit of a shame the CL will be on there, hopefully they up their game massively.

 

[Dumbstar]

Gary didn't say it was one of Rooney's best performances did he? I thought he said something like "it wouldn't surprise me if Van Gaal thought that was one of Rooney's best performances". On account of him being so disciplined.

Anyway, great analysis from Neville and Carragher today.

Yep, really enjoyed that. So good to hear football being discussed so professionally and thoroughly.

 

[FlawlessThaw]

I just can't take BT Sport seriously. Never bother even listening to their analysis. A bit of a shame the CL will be on there, hopefully they up their game massively.

Not with pundits like Hargreaves around. And he's not even the worst in this show, they have journos like Tony Evans and Darren Lewis who's opinions would look cringeworthy on here.

 

[Tim Henman]

Worst is Richard Keys on Bein. All he does is take potshots at LVG.

 

[pacifictheme]

Which is why it's not surprising that LVG likes RVP. Throughout the early part of the season, when RVP was favoured, he was making all those kinds of runs. The reason it didn't work that well is that all the other players around him weren't playing to the same tune, imo.

Absolute rubbish. a whole piece was done on how falcao and rvp never made runs and just stood on their markers. Rvps off the ball movement has on the whole this season been crap.

 

[Loon]

Worst is Richard Keys on Bein. All he does is take potshots at LVG.

Going on his wardrobe on Sky over the years, his judgement is somewhat questionable.

 

[Theonas]

Worst is Richard Keys on Bein. All he does is take potshots at LVG.

Really? What did he say?

 

[Bubz27]

Worst is Richard Keys on Bein. All he does is take potshots at LVG.

Yeah but he had chips with Giggsy once. Or something.

 

[Raptori]

Absolute rubbish. a whole piece was done on how falcao and rvp never made runs and just stood on their markers. Rvps off the ball movement has on the whole this season been crap.

Journalists aren't always right, you know? Sure, RVP wasn't making the kind of runs or show the movement you'd expect from him. He was making the kind of runs that LVG wants from the striker in his system. Today, Rooney didn't make the kind of runs or show the movement you'd expect from him. Again, he was making the kind of runs that LVG wants. Back when RVP seemed to be struggling, I re-watched a couple of matches, and could see very clearly that he was making intelligent runs, but they just weren't in synch with the rest of the team - and the runs Rooney has been making recently are the exact same ones.

 

[Rado_N]

Going on his wardrobe on Sky over the years, his judgement is somewhat questionable.

Spoiler

What's up with that?

 

[Bojan11]

Compare the analysis from Neville and Carragher to the jokes on BT Sport Football Tonight, it's laughable. Hargreaves basically came out with the usual cliches that City lacked spirit, fight and were unlucky with our first goal which changed the match. No real depth

Add the clowns Savage, McManaman and James.

These cnuts will be covering champions league next year.

 

[Loon]

Spoiler

What's up with that?

MY EYES ARE BURNING!

 

[ManUArfa]

A great watch and a fascinating thread.

Some superb posts on here too.

 

[Jammydodger7]

Hopefully Mourinho wasn't watching and has an idea of how to stop us.

 

[Rado_N]

Add the clowns Savage, McManaman and James.

These cnuts will be covering champions league next year.

I'm clinging to the hope that they'll be shaking things up ahead of their extra amount of games.

Otherwise I'll just continue to tune in 10 seconds before kick off and switch over for HT.

 

[The Mitcher]

I agree that Mourinho is going to try and find a way to beat our system, but Carragher and Nev forgot to mention that LVG will most likely be aware of that and will probably try and prevent it some how.