Pretty sure it was the mnf team and i reckon they know more than me or you. RVP shouldn't be anywhere near the starting line up at present.
Tonight's MNF (City demolition)...
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) was joined by comedian Ali Woods to look back at the best and worst moments of a rollercoaster season with the annual United Hour Awards.
Has Ten Hag been sacked yet? We're not sure and we hope not, but it's looking more likely as the days pass.
Who should replace him and why is it taking so long to make a decision?
Van Gaal will also have to concentrate on stopping Chelsea's.
Wow! That was an awesome analysis.
In regards to what they said about Mourinho, I think he'll be mad to put Zouma and Matic as holding midfielders against us. Neither of them are particularly great on the ball, and with the way we've been pressing of late, I can imagine we'd constantly win the ball back in dangerous areas. Will be interesting as to how he sets up against us, though.
In regards to what they said about Mourinho, I think he'll be mad to put Zouma and Matic as holding midfielders against us. Neither of them are particularly great on the ball, and with the way we've been pressing of late, I can imagine we'd constantly win the ball back in dangerous areas. Will be interesting as to how he sets up against us, though.
We're playing a Barca type system (organised, possession based) but we have pace and physicality in the side too.
So how do teams play against us to get a result?
So how do teams play against us to get a result?
- Attacking us out wide to get in behind our advancing full backs? Blind and Valencia have pace/energy and discipline to get back quickly
- Taking mid range shots? We have DDG and we close down quickly so it will take something special
- Putting a man on Carrick and/or closing down the CBs and keeper to prevent our build up play and regain possession? We have the option of the clearance ball straight to Fellaini
- Putting a man on Fellaini? He needs two on him which opens up spaces elsewhere for us
- Having a compact shape to cut out the passing lanes? We have the option of isolating teams out wide through Rooney occupying their CBs
- Parking the bus on the assumption we have no plan B if we can't break them down. Yes we do. Fellaini can move up top to receive long balls for knock downs or we can bring on a pacey attacker like a Di Maria or a Wilson to make runs and get in behind
- Playing balls in behind to run at us with pace. We have a defence with pace and energy to match.
They are also forgetting how useful the Herrera/Mata/Valencia combo has been. We have more avenues of attack than we are given credit for. I cant remember who but someone in the caf said after the Pool game that a lot of teams wont 'turn up' against us. It will look like they wont but in reality we will be forcing them to submit.
I put this in the match thread, but I'll say it here as well:Hopefully Mourinho wasn't watching and has an idea of how to stop us.
"Think the way we played in the match at OT this season should be the blueprint for how we approach the game at the Bridge. Fellaini and Carrick occupying Fabregas and Matic respectively, ensuring that their influence will not be as consistent on the match as it could be. This would then allow the space for Young and Mata to drift. Maintain this shape for an hour, and then bring on ADM to exploit Chelsea's tiring legs in the last 30 minutes or so. Hopefully, with recent performances considered, he will have a point to prove and he'll provide that all important moment of magic.
Tbh, with the way our recent performances and results have gone, this is pretty much a freebie for us. Win/Lose/Draw, it shouldn't have too much of an effect on our final league position. So, for the first time in two months, I'm actually not going to be as arsed with the result. The only thing I want to see is a maintenance of the level of our performances since Spurs."
Even if it was, I'd take a lot of what they say with a pinch of salt as well. As someone pointed out earlier, they say stuff like "you're supposed to keep your eye on the ball at set pieces", and then criticise a player for ball-watching.
Besides, back then there was no way for them to know what LVG was going for. There was a clear disconnect between the runs RVP made, and what the rest of the team was doing. My impression at the time was that RVP wasn't the problem. I guess we'll find out if/when RVP gets a chance!
Seeing Fellaini play in this system makes me realise why Pep may have wanted Ibra. A big, strong, technically perfect player to give his team of midgets another option.
If you said Shaw, I'd agree but Blind was exposed because of his lack of pace on Sunday.
Was he really though? No one is catching Navas for that chance he had early on, the ball was too good. And thats the only time I remember him beaten.
He had been beaten several times in the first 15 minutes, Blind has never been known for his pace he just doesn't have it. Only when we started to get a strangle hold on the game and Blind got his positioning right did he shut out Navas completely. I think it was his worse game for us. But Valencia had a problem too but that was to do with positioning not pace.
So anyone got a link or no?
If City carried on the way they started we'd have lost because we couldn't cope with them and they were getting in between us constantly in the first ten minutes. If I was trying to beat us I'd just do what they did and hope that my players had the energy to keep it up and get a lead. It was actually shocking how easy they got through, shades of the 6-1 all over again.
A better touch by Aguero gets a 2 on 1 versus Valencia and an easy goal too.
Putting a man on Carrick stops him and the Fellaini ball isn't fullproof. Arsenal also dealt with Fellaini perfectly in the FA Cup game and outplayed us so it's simple really. Just do what they did.
Alright but there is a guy called Lionel Messi who also plays in this role and he's kind of successful...
.You made up more stuff here than Stephen King! Shades of the 6/1? If you watched that game, you would know that it was a horrible 7 mins spell at the end of the game when we were trying to get back in it that did it to us. We were never outplayed in that game with 11 men and even in the second half, we were obviously inferior but nothing close to the first 15 mins yesterday.
Arsenal outplayed us? Do you just read the scoreline and assume whoever won was the better side? Nobody outplayed anybody in that game. It was an end to end first half followed by a slow niggly second and it got decided by a stupid back pass. It's frustrating when results can affect the perceptions of people on a game THAT much.
Finally, of course you can counter our system. You could counter Barcelona's system between 2009 and 2011 for goodness sake. Brazil 1970 could be stopped. So I don't really get your point. Are you looking for a team that dominates 90 mins of every game all the time? Because that would be the first time ever in the history of the game. The objective is to have a system, coaching and personnel who can be as dominant and therefore tough to play against as possible. We are already this very well and in the process of improving so pointing out every flaw in our games is an exercise in futility.
Yea exactly! #07's post was a really good one. I just disagree with the point about workmanlike players. That Barcelona side was as drilled as they come, a clockwork like movement and discipline. Zlatan even called them kids in how they listen to Pep without argument. So it's not so much about talented players and workmanlike players and more about the ego of said players.Alright but there is a guy called Lionel Messi who also plays in this role and he's kind of successful...
We were outplayed in the 6-1. They cut through us at will. We had a lot of the ball and did nothing with it, they tactically outdid us and were clinical when they attacked. The scoreline was buffered out by the ending yeah but 3-1 would've flattered us considering how easy we were to get through. Same on Sunday, City just carved through us and we couldn't get near them nor get any meaningful possession going. We were lucky that they were knackered/gave up and we took full advantage. Great to see but we would've been battered if they kept up the way they started.
Arsenal did a similar job. We couldn't work our way through them. Coquelin took care of Fellaini which basically stopped us and they carved through us on the counter. Arsenal were wasteful with their chances but they had better ones than we did.
I was merely responding to a post that made us sound unbeatable. We've played well recently, it's been fantastically pleasing but I think we're going to really struggle against Chelsea and Arsenal. Chances of them doing a job on us are higher than the other way around IMO.
It was me that posted all those points, mate but they're not really flaws. You're right- it's not impossible to stop us right now but it's definitely difficult. That was the point I was trying to make.
no wonder LvG was getting dog's abuse for not starting the shiny muppet favourites Mind you, I never understood the tinkering iteration with Di María upfront and Rooney in midfield. Still baffled by it.
Terrific post.
I learn a lot about the game from these MNF shows. Being in Canada I typically see them online but I really enjoy them, wish we had something similar here. We do it for other sports but not football (aka soccer over here) as of yet.
I consider myself pretty astute with tactics in the game but there are points I miss when watching a match which are highlighted. Great to see, and good analysis.
I consider myself pretty astute with tactics in the game but there are points I miss when watching a match which are highlighted. Great to see, and good analysis.
Really enjoyed watching that. It's enlightening to get that kind of analysis compared to the junk we usually get here. The bit about Smalling and the defensive line was good to see. We really are becoming a well disciplined outfit now. It would be interesting to know how LvG would have gone with Spurs had he taken that job.
Regarding Mourinho and Chelsea, I believe that he will refer (and we can also refer to) to what he already faced with Barcelona. He managed to win at the end, though at the beginning, it was not that easy. The only difference in the equation is for me the fact that Fellaini brings a bit more power and height, while Mata is more central (the asymmetry United has currently). Otherwise, it's the same equation. I am pretty certain Mourinho will go for a "sacrifice" one pawn option to handle who he considers as being the biggest threat for United. After all, Hazard can deliver magic. I do not know who he will choose to consider as the biggest threat though. Intuitively, I would say either Carrick or Herrera.
To be honest, I am really wondering how Mourinho will tackle this.
PS: ManUArfa, fan of Ben Arfa?
I am sorry I still have to disagree here. They did not cut through at will in the first half. I remember clearly that it was against the run of play when Balotelli scored. In the second half, we got Evans sent off within minutes so we were on the back foot and they never committed that much since they had the numerical advantage. At no point in that game, were we pinned back not being able to get out of our box like the first 15 mins yesterday.
As for Arsenal, again I feel you are mistaking the fact that we couldn't open them up with them outplaying us. It's the same thing that's been said about our pre Spurs performances. We weren't attacking well and looked impotent but we were rarely outplayed in the sense that teams would put us under sustained pressure which only happened away to Arsenal and Southampton. Of course they did that through the counter at the end of the game when we were chasing and 2 or 3 times in the first half but we only created 2 or 3 very good chances. Overall, it was a typical close game that was decided with a big individual mistake.
I think we are going to struggle against Chelsea too as they're happy to sit back and be patient and play the waiting game. They'd rather take a draw than actually try to impose themselves on the game. That is why they're the only team that could stop Barcelona at their best (Inter did as well). If they could nullify the best team at what we are trying to do, they can definitely do it to us. However, it doesn't bother me that much as they're pretty much the only top team that plays like that and if the price of the sheer thrill that we can get out of performances like yesterday's when it clicks is being bored to death by Chelsea twice a year, I will take it.
But that's the thing though, nobody really thought Iniesta, Busquets, Piqué, Pedro and Abidal were some of the best players in the world. They were written off back then and they were calling for investment and such. It simply is impossible for the average fan with our limited insight to know whether the system and discipline made them look a level or two above or if they did. If I had to guess personally, I would say only Iniesta offered to the system more than it offered to him. The point still stands that we don't know the potential of the players we have until they are given the chance of that type of meticulous coaching.
Yeah of course, though they also had players like Eto'o and Puyol, not to mention Messi. That's kind of what I'm saying, they had a squad of quality players laced with world-class talents, and a coach capable of moulding them into something greater than the sum of its parts. The signs are that we have a manager like that right now, the only question is whether our current players are all just quality (in which case we could buy a few world-class players to take the next step), or whether some of them will take that step up/reach the peaks people expected of them.
That is indeed true. I just think there is often a general assumption about the quality of a player and people generally dismiss that maybe with a change in the system and through coaching a player can actually reach great peaks. Obviously, that is not what you have been saying so I think I just misunderstood you there. Cheers!
Did Carragher say, "He got the winning goal midweek, against Blackbear?"
It took months to implement it successfully, I doubt one video analysis would enable opponents to defend it successfully.
Yeap. I remember a fair few people here saying how Van Persie didn't get involved enough when being critical of him. I thought he was doing what strikers should be doing, which was being in positions to occupy the centre backs. Rooney did this brilliantly against City.
They both bring something different to the same approaches though. I myself prefer Van Persie's assured first touches and layoffs. Rooney's better at harassing the opponents, which was how we scored our goal against Newcastle.
We've got two very good strikers. I can't fathom why people would want to get rid of Van Persie. Look at Liverpool and their struggles to replace Sturridge this season.
Thing is, Rooney also only had around 35 touches at Anfield - it was a similar performance back then but it wasn't noticed.
Agree 100% I think the tactical analysis is way over board and exaggerated in Rooneys favour. For the majority of games the players will have their instructions and should carry them out that's par for the course. Fair enough Neville is highlighting Rooney and his role and how important it was in the tactical battle and how well disciplined he was. But the fact was on the ball his hold up play was pretty sub standard saying anything otherwise is just wrong and I'm a massive Rooney fan I think he's our best player but let's be honest any credit for Rooneys tactical role should be heavily weighted in the favour of our management team and only small credit to Rooney for carrying it out. Rooney did well carrying it out but he needs to sharpen up on his own performance for me over the last 3 games.
I didnt watch much of MNF till yesterday and its far better than MOTD analysis wise.
It was great to see how compact we are in defense and how are defense starts immidiately as soon as the oponnent has the ball. We are in good positions and dont allow oponnents to make an easy pass or any pass whatsoever. THat kind of defens or positioning allows us to quickly transforum ourselves in attack. It was a great comparison to West Browmich away game when we looked all over the place.
It was great to see how compact we are in defense and how are defense starts immidiately as soon as the oponnent has the ball. We are in good positions and dont allow oponnents to make an easy pass or any pass whatsoever. THat kind of defens or positioning allows us to quickly transforum ourselves in attack. It was a great comparison to West Browmich away game when we looked all over the place.
I think people are missing Nevilles point regarding Rooney. Even as a centre forward for us he typically roams all around the pitch, he always wants to be involved, he can't help but drop deep looking for the ball. I think a Neville was pointing out that it was one of Rooney's most tactically disciplined games, even when he came a bit deeper on one occasion he immediately got back into position. Nevilles point was that for LvG to have attained that kind of discipline from Rooney is a big achievement.
Yes, and plenty more times over the last month or so.
Knowing Mourinho, he'll probably ask his players to fall over, the moment Fellaini or Herrera are within 5 yards of them
Regarding Rooney, this isn't a LvG transformation IMO. When the team is playing well, he's more than happy playing a restricted center forward role. As has been evidenced by his previous number 9 displays at numerous European aways under Fergie. It's only when the team is doing crap, does Rooney go around looking for the ball trying to make things happen.
Great analysis from the guys.
The best thing about watching MNF is it helps me massively with my Football Manager tactics!
The best thing about watching MNF is it helps me massively with my Football Manager tactics!
Brilliant.
As for how to counter us at the moment, it's surely got to be to target the full backs. That is the weak point for us isn't it?
As for how to counter us at the moment, it's surely got to be to target the full backs. That is the weak point for us isn't it?
Generally I would say it's the space behind the high defensive line. You'll need to counter us in the same way Real(also under Mourinho) countered Barcelona.
What is absolutely brilliant is that our players seem to know where to be and they're disciplined. You'd normally associate that with ponderous boring football. But because this "discipline" is all about giving players like Herrera, Young and Mata options in the front third of the pitch we can play some lovely fluid stuff. LVG's philosophy isn't all about having players stay in position, it still gives all our little superstars time to run at players and pick out killed balls. It's quite literally the best of both worlds.
I remember last year going mad when we'd have the ball around the box but no-one making movements. By drilling into every player where they should be, you can tell that everyone knows where to look for on the pass. Even if they can't see the player, they're aware of where they should be.
The next issue LVG has is our full backs. In Shaw and Rafael we have two brillant full backs who can win games for us through stamina, pace and link up play. They could help push us on again because I feel their pace could be a massive help for us. Just hope LVG can get them used to the system. Exciting times ahead.
I remember last year going mad when we'd have the ball around the box but no-one making movements. By drilling into every player where they should be, you can tell that everyone knows where to look for on the pass. Even if they can't see the player, they're aware of where they should be.
The next issue LVG has is our full backs. In Shaw and Rafael we have two brillant full backs who can win games for us through stamina, pace and link up play. They could help push us on again because I feel their pace could be a massive help for us. Just hope LVG can get them used to the system. Exciting times ahead.