Top 4 race / race abandoned (or maybe not) / Leicester & Chelsea in the process of bottling it

NK86

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You’re a good team, no doubt, but I do indeed think that you’ll never win the league or let alone the CL with Ole, so yeah long may it continue for me. That’s my opinion regardless of how Liverpool is doing. Happy to admit I was completely wrong should it happen.

And Tuchel is a world class manager imo, not sure how he’s viewed globally but I think quite a few would agree. Many on here want(ed) Pochettino instead of Ole if I’m not mistaken and he hasn’t won anything ever either.
Us wanting a manager doesn't make him world class though. As far as I am concerned there are only 2 genuine world class managers in the world right now and are managing our biggest rivals. Rest are all who have yet to prove everything.

As for Ole, only time will tell but we are building up nicely and I think we will win a big trophy withing the next two years.
 

Pow

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That City run is pretty crazy.
Whats crazy is 5/8 goals conceded came in one game against West brom
Which means in the other 14 games we've only conceded 3 goals.
Alas if only our attack wasn't so profligate.
 

NK86

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Didn’t Tuchel win a cup with Dortmund as well?

I don’t get why fans seem to hate other managers getting credit - Tuchel may well get to a CL final, FA cup trophy and top four from where Lampard left them. Ole hopefully will finish 2nd and pick up the EL. It’s only at the end of the season you can really judge but you’d be a fool to suggest he hasn’t done well with Chelsea so far.
Before jumping in, you may at least have read that I never said he was not doing a good job. All I highlighted was that he is not a world class manager yet and has everything to prove to even consider that as something passable.

Didn't Chelsea win the UCL with Di Matteo when he took over middle of the season? Does that make him world class?
 

NK86

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Since he took over I think they've got 32 points from 15 and we've got 27 points from 14.

So we win today and they're currently a whopping 2 points ahead of us since Tuchel took over.
Chelsea have a horrible run in. I would wait to see how much he has gained by the end of the season. They still have to play away to City for starters.
 

ZolaWasMagic

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Chelsea have a horrible run in. I would wait to see how much he has gained by the end of the season. They still have to play away to City for starters.
We can almost afford to lose to City. And if Utd win today and West Ham fail to win tomorrow, we can absolutely afford to lose. So the City game will almost be irrelevant

Plus we still have Leicester to play, who also still have Utd away.
 

Dancfc

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Didn't Chelsea win the UCL with Di Matteo when he took over middle of the season? Does that make him world class?
He's not but if we judged from the basis that helped you come to the conclusion Tuchel isn't then he would be.

I can only really talk from what he's given us and it's the most confident I've been in a manager from a tactical POV since Hiddink the first time round.
 

ZolaWasMagic

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He's not but if we judged from the basis that helped you come to the conclusion Tuchel isn't then he would be.

I can only really talk from what he's given us and it's the most confident I've been in a manager from a tactical POV since Hiddink the first time round.
Im almost certain its still a "honeymoon period" to some. Incredible
 

The holy trinity 68

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Us wanting a manager doesn't make him world class though. As far as I am concerned there are only 2 genuine world class managers in the world right now and are managing our biggest rivals. Rest are all who have yet to prove everything.

As for Ole, only time will tell but we are building up nicely and I think we will win a big trophy withing the next two years.
Surely Zidane has done enough to be seen as World Class?
 

Lee565

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You're going to have to explain your logic behind that one.
They seem almost identical to man city under tuchel where they are just well oiled machine of being defensively solid where they barely conceed goals and doing what needs to be done to pick up 3 points without an out and out striker. If they recruit a world class forward in the summer then they will be a major threat to city

Don't get it wrong, man united are more entertaining to watch but for me defences win titles and we are still suspect in this area in terms of striking the right balance of defending and attacking as a team as I find it hard to believe Chelsea's defenders are anything outstanding it's just how well drilled they are as team in their defensive shape.

I wouldn't mind seeing ole trying out using false 9 option now and then in certain as I feel like it's a very advantageous tool to have game plan wise of being able to cope with missing a natural goalscorer in the side for whatever reason (injury etc..) during a season as seen with man city and chelsea.
 

Dancfc

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Im almost certain its still a "honeymoon period" to some. Incredible
A new manager bounce/honeymoon period suggests many players burst into form out of novelty/relief of change, with the exception of CHO that just simply wasn't the case.

Tuchel brought more structure and tactical nous to the table which allowed us to get the results we simply weren't getting under Lampard. The issues with our players form especially attackers still remained and it's only the recent few weeks there's been signs of that changing.
 

tomaldinho1

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Before jumping in, you may at least have read that I never said he was not doing a good job. All I highlighted was that he is not a world class manager yet and has everything to prove to even consider that as something passable.

Didn't Chelsea win the UCL with Di Matteo when he took over middle of the season? Does that make him world class?
Ok fair - I do think you should acknowledge his cup win though. I actually agree he’s not world class FYI but that might change if he can bring in the CL.

Not on Tuchel but I actually wonder if the bar for world class manager is too high - realistically if you win a league or CL surely you’re world class. It doesn’t mean you are permanently that good however. Di Mateo is a good counter to that but then I wonder if he should get more credit. CL is the hardest trophy to win and he did win it after all.
 

Dancfc

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Ok fair - I do think you should acknowledge his cup win though. I actually agree he’s not world class FYI but that might change if he can bring in the CL.

Not on Tuchel but I actually wonder if the bar for world class manager is too high - realistically if you win a league or CL surely you’re world class. It doesn’t mean you are permanently that good however. Di Mateo is a good counter to that but then I wonder if he should get more credit. CL is the hardest trophy to win and he did win it after all.
Managers can't really win.

If they overarchieve with relitevely small budgets ala Pochettino it's "show us your medals" then there's Pep who can stick multiple medals on the table it's "yeah but Shannon from Scunthorpe and her dog could have done that with those teams".
 

ivaldo

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They seem almost identical to man city under tuchel where they are just well oiled machine of being defensively solid where they barely conceed goals and doing what needs to be done to pick up 3 points without an out and out striker. If they recruit a world class forward in the summer then they will be a major threat to city

Don't get it wrong, man united are more entertaining to watch but for me defences win titles and we are still suspect in this area in terms of striking the right balance of defending and attacking as a team as I find it hard to believe Chelsea's defenders are anything outstanding it's just how well drilled they are as team in their defensive shape.

I wouldn't mind seeing ole trying out using false 9 option now and then in certain as I feel like it's a very advantageous tool to have game plan wise of being able to cope with missing a natural goalscorer in the side for whatever reason (injury etc..) during a season as seen with man city and chelsea.
When you discount the first few games of the season, where our team was clearly not fit, our defense has been as good as any. As Pogue pointed out in his thread yesterday, if you extrapolate that across the season then we have the meanest defense in league. We also have the best form in the league, while having obvious areas of improvement, just like Chelsea.
 

Lee565

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When you discount the first few games of the season, where our team was clearly not fit, our defense has been as good as any. As Pogue pointed out in his thread yesterday, if you extrapolate that across the season then we have the meanest defense in league. We also have the best form in the league, while having obvious areas of improvement, just like Chelsea.
Fair enough, it just games like roma, Leipzig, psg where we have looked all over the place defensively and lost control of games but I don't see that same issue with Chelsea and City, I could be wrong though as obviously I invest far more time watching nearly every united match and most fans tend to scrutinise their own team to a higher standard.
 

rotherham_red

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That chelsea win yesterday basically put an end to both top 4 fight and relegation fight.

It would be nice to think Chelsea are just having a honeymoon period under tuchel but the consistent structure and rock solid defence that has continued under him is no fluke.

United may be second in the table but in reality we are currently the third best side in the league, with it being a real toss up between man city and Chelsea as to who is actually currently the best team in the league and expect Chelsea to be best positioned to beat man city to the league title next season.
What you have to remember is, what Tuchel is essentially doing is shoring up that defence with a 5 man backline and two sitters/defensively minded players in Jorginho and Kante. I don't think that will be the system he perseveres with so the question is what he will bring in next season and will it work. With us and City you know what we're looking to do, with Chelsea you can see what they're currently doing but you don't quite yet know what they're building towards at the moment.

For us, it will depend almost entirely on what extent the board will back Ole to. He's done really well to last as long as he has with a board who have only backed him three quarters of the way through each summer he's been here, but I think at this point the clear bottlenecks are apparent for all to see and if at least half of them aren't resolved we'll be stagnating at best.
 

Zaphod2319

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What you have to remember is, what Tuchel is essentially doing is shoring up that defence with a 5 man backline and two sitters/defensively minded players in Jorginho and Kante. I don't think that will be the system he perseveres with so the question is what he will bring in next season and will it work. With us and City you know what we're looking to do, with Chelsea you can see what they're currently doing but you don't quite yet know what they're building towards at the moment.

For us, it will depend almost entirely on what extent the board will back Ole to. He's done really well to last as long as he has with a board who have only backed him three quarters of the way through each summer he's been here, but I think at this point the clear bottlenecks are apparent for all to see and if at least half of them aren't resolved we'll be stagnating at best.
Our wingbacks play forward. It is not a back 5 under Tuchel. When Lampard used wingbacks it truly was a back 5. Tuchel does employ the double pivot defensively so in that sense it is 5 in defense most of the time to prevent counter attacks through the middle.
 

cyberman

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Our wingbacks play forward. It is not a back 5 under Tuchel. When Lampard used wingbacks it truly was a back 5. Tuchel does employ the double pivot defensively so in that sense it is 5 in defense most of the time to prevent counter attacks through the middle.
Its a back 5. All modern fullbacks attack, its like claiming Utd play with a back 2 because Shaw and AWB push so far forward.
 

Zaphod2319

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Its a back 5. All modern fullbacks attack, its like claiming Utd play with a back 2 because Shaw and AWB push so far forward.
If you do not see the big difference between how Tuchel uses the wingback vs how Lampard used the same team, then I guess we have nothing to discuss. Lampard kept them primarily in defence, Tuchel uses them to widen the attack. Of course they fall back when the opponent has possession but so do the other attacking players. Tuchel uses them differently than a traditional back 5.
 

cyberman

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If you do not see the big difference between how Tuchel uses the wingback vs how Lampard used the same team, then I guess we have nothing to discuss. Lampard kept them primarily in defence, Tuchel uses them to widen the attack. Of course they fall back when the opponent has possession but so do the other attacking players. Tuchel uses them differently than a traditional back 5.
Reece James was your main attacking outlet long before Tuchel was in charge. James to Giroud and hope he sticks it in.
Its this weird, modern reasoning that fans use to pretend a back 5 doesnt exist. Almost all back 5s have wingbacks, theres nothing wrong with having a back 5.
 

Zaphod2319

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Reece James was your main attacking outlet long before Tuchel was in charge. James to Giroud and hope he sticks it in.
Its this weird, modern reasoning that fans use to pretend a back 5 doesnt exist. Almost all back 5s have wingbacks, theres nothing wrong with having a back 5.
No doubt, there is a pretty big difference in saying the wingbacks are out there to primarily defend as was the case with Lampard, and understanding that Tuchel plays them completely different. It is nothing new to the position, other managers use the same tactic, but it is clearly attacking. CHO and Pulisic have played wingback by Tuchel. I doubt anyone would argue they are defenders.
 

NK86

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Ok fair - I do think you should acknowledge his cup win though. I actually agree he’s not world class FYI but that might change if he can bring in the CL.

Not on Tuchel but I actually wonder if the bar for world class manager is too high - realistically if you win a league or CL surely you’re world class. It doesn’t mean you are permanently that good however. Di Mateo is a good counter to that but then I wonder if he should get more credit. CL is the hardest trophy to win and he did win it after all.
There's a flip side to every argument. Obviously CL is one of the toughest to win, but you can always get lucky in a cup run. That's why a league is a true barometer of a side's performance over the course of the season, and thus logically for a manager as well it's the true test of his ability.
Chelsea were not even the top 2 side in the league that season and were then the champions of Europe. So that muddies the water a bit.
 

NK86

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He's not but if we judged from the basis that helped you come to the conclusion Tuchel isn't then he would be.

I can only really talk from what he's given us and it's the most confident I've been in a manager from a tactical POV since Hiddink the first time round.
I am not talking about your chances for top 4. It was in response to someone asking how many points you have gained on United since Tuchel has been there. I just said let's wait till the end of the season to count that since we have already played some of our toughest fixtures while you still have City and Leicester.
 

NK86

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Im almost certain its still a "honeymoon period" to some. Incredible
You don't have to look far. Under Ole as a caretaker, we had a better run than you have had now under Tuchel, but the next season really caused a lot of pain till we got Bruno in. Not necessary that Tuchel will be the same, but you can never discount players playing out of their skin to stay relevant for the next season as it's a new manager.
 

NK86

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He's not but if we judged from the basis that helped you come to the conclusion Tuchel isn't then he would be.

I can only really talk from what he's given us and it's the most confident I've been in a manager from a tactical POV since Hiddink the first time round.
Tuchel is definitely better than Lampard. I was merely pointing out he isn't world class. Surely all you Chelsea fans will acknowledge the same as you have had truly world class managers at the helm. Jose (first time around) and Ancelotti (he was excellent those 2 seasons). Tuchel is nowhere near that category yet.
 

Dancfc

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Tuchel is definitely better than Lampard. I was merely pointing out he isn't world class. Surely all you Chelsea fans will acknowledge the same as you have had truly world class managers at the helm. Jose (first time around) and Ancelotti (he was excellent those 2 seasons). Tuchel is nowhere near that category yet.
Ancelotti wasn't excellent for two season's, his second season was basically an even lesser version of United 17/18, ala awful performances getting results well beyond what was deserved (largely thanks to the keeper).

Also he overseen our two most gutless CL eliminations to date where he was made to look like a complete rookie by Jose and Fergie respectively.
 

Zaphod2319

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Tuchel is definitely better than Lampard. I was merely pointing out he isn't world class. Surely all you Chelsea fans will acknowledge the same as you have had truly world class managers at the helm. Jose (first time around) and Ancelotti (he was excellent those 2 seasons). Tuchel is nowhere near that category yet.
I don’t look at Tuchel as world class...yet. I think he has the opportunity to reach that designation much faster than Lampard will, if he does. Both will need to achieve it through results. The future is looking very positive with Tuchel. We have all watched that change quickly with other managers. I am looking forward to Tuchels time here for sure.
 

ZolaWasMagic

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Duffer don't watch cartoons. Duffer is a grown ass man.

Actually, I like South Park I guess. Does that count?
I used to like South Park, not seen it in fecking yrs though

Beavis and Butthead is the cartoon of all cartoons, though :D :D
 

Dancfc

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It does tend to work out that way though. You said the same thing last year when you definetley werent going to lose v Liverpool at Anfield or drop points v West Ham etc last year. By and large you can see whos on the beach and who isnt.
Two years back we were heading into the home straight 5th with Liverpool, United and Leicester as our final three away games, no one gave us a hope especially with the EL schedule alongside it but we not only got top 4 but wound up 3rd.

Last year we again had the toughest run in on paper and maintained our 4th spot (you and Leicester swapped between 3rd and 5th but meh).
 

Cal?

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Us wanting a manager doesn't make him world class though. As far as I am concerned there are only 2 genuine world class managers in the world right now and are managing our biggest rivals. Rest are all who have yet to prove everything.

As for Ole, only time will tell but we are building up nicely and I think we will win a big trophy withing the next two years.
Since when did Real Madrid become our rivals?
 
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Why don’t you go support Chelsea then?
Strange post.

I think he has a point, but we’re picking up points at a similar rate to Chelsea and having some great European results too, so I think it’s more even now than the league makes out and more even than the poster makes out. Both sides are perfectly poised for a title challenge next season if they get the Summer right.
This “in reality” we’re the third best is utter bollocks, in reality we’re second best with Chelsea looking on a similar level and Liverpool likely to be there too next season.
It’s a big Summer ahead for all.
 

TrustInJanuzaj

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Strange post.

I think he has a point, but we’re picking up points at a similar rate to Chelsea and having some great European results too, so I think it’s more even now than the league makes out and more even than the poster makes out. Both sides are perfectly poised for a title challenge next season if they get the Summer right.
This “in reality” we’re the third best is utter bollocks, in reality we’re second best with Chelsea looking on a similar level and Liverpool likely to be there too next season.
It’s a big Summer ahead for all.
Considering we have been a better team than Chelsea for two seasons now it’s incredibly negative to start spouting loads of crap about how we are not going to be at that level but Chelsea are. The same stuff was said last summer after Chelsea spent all their money and yet Utd have easily been better. We still have the younger squad, better players and honestly Ole is proving to be a very good manager. I haven’t got time for fans who look at Utd in the most pessimistic way and rivals in the most positive. How is that support?
 

cyberman

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Strange post.

I think he has a point, but we’re picking up points at a similar rate to Chelsea and having some great European results too, so I think it’s more even now than the league makes out and more even than the poster makes out. Both sides are perfectly poised for a title challenge next season if they get the Summer right.
This “in reality” we’re the third best is utter bollocks, in reality we’re second best with Chelsea looking on a similar level and Liverpool likely to be there too next season.
It’s a big Summer ahead for all.
Chelsea cant really be considered on a similar level until they actually prove it. Their record over the last 2 seasons is average at best, let them go on a season run and see where they are. Right now they are 5 points above Spurs who are having a terrible season. That squad has floundered long enough that the wait and see approach cant hold weight. We have seen at this stage
 
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Bebestation

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The one thing that's going to make Chelsea hard to go a level up is that I genuinely think Tuchel's role will include getting the best of atleast one of Havertz or Werner.

Not sure which one because I think both aren't a title winning player.
 

weetee

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Beavis and Butthead is the cartoon of all cartoons, though :D :D
Ren&Stimpy not far behind.
There, I outed myself as a Chelsea fan?!

Imo, Tuchel is already world-class. That definition is subjective of course but he did amazing at Mainz, his first appointment, for quite some years, brought Dortmund back on track in no-time and got them their last silverware, did well at PSG and now, at his fourth club, does very well at Chelsea under less than perfect circumstances from the get go. The guy didn't get any of his jobs because of his history as a "legendary" player but only because of his work as a manager - to get yourself appointed to 3 elite clubs at your first 4 clubs is proof for me enough that he is world-class already.

DiMatteo isn't a good comparison at all imho, you can use that guy as a template to downplay almost everything. What did he do before and afterwards his CL title? Nobody knows.
 

roonster09

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What does "World class coach" means? It was annoying when it was used to describe players without any clear definition, now it's used for coaches.

Next, world class CEO, directors, groundsman, kitman.