I read it as "Maradona" first and was thoroughly confused.
True greats who aren't remembered as such: The fall guys of football?
- Thread starter Fortitude
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
Interesting thing is, if he were there, they probably wouldn't have won. Despite him being their best player by far.
Probably not. That team winning the Euros was a combination of a miracle and Peter Schmeichel
Del Piero is one of my idols but I appreciate he probably shares a mantle with Totti
Even though I love Baggio like most, his historical assessment didn't really suffer great blow following the 1994 World Cup tragedy, and the effects from that fallout (especially wrt. the Italian media which dramatized things) are a bit overplayed from a broader context — he's rated almost exactly where he should be, IMO, and his estimation didn't sway a whole lot from the myriad hatchet jobs — not quite as great or as remarkable as Kaiser/Cruyff/Cristiano/Platini/Puskás — more towards the second or third tier of European footballers — a genuine legend, but not a true giant who dwarfed the other players of his era. Had a remarkable peak of 3-4 years, but his career and overall legacy as an attacker or footballer or leader just doesn't stack up against the best of the best from a historical perspective, even if he had won a World Cup.
Aside from the injuries that impacted his career, the biggest issue is that his Juventus stint was cut short following the appointment of Lippi...
Then they go on to establish one of the more notable dynasties of the modern era with his spiritual successor Del Piero at the fore — which reflects poorly on Baggio, while he also suffers with a Milan team that fails to recapture the glory days of the late '80s and early '90s — and then proceeds to have a fairly decent career with other clubs. Even though there's a lot of drama surrounding fall guys in the immediate to medium term, things usually even out in the grand scheme of things as their career is scrutinized more thoroughly, unless they don't recover as footballers from all the emotional or psychological damage.
Aside from the injuries that impacted his career, the biggest issue is that his Juventus stint was cut short following the appointment of Lippi...
Then they go on to establish one of the more notable dynasties of the modern era with his spiritual successor Del Piero at the fore — which reflects poorly on Baggio, while he also suffers with a Milan team that fails to recapture the glory days of the late '80s and early '90s — and then proceeds to have a fairly decent career with other clubs. Even though there's a lot of drama surrounding fall guys in the immediate to medium term, things usually even out in the grand scheme of things as their career is scrutinized more thoroughly, unless they don't recover as footballers from all the emotional or psychological damage.
Deco fits this topic: he was one of the best midfielders I've seen, but his later years with recurring injuries just took a toll on his career reputation. Lionel Messi even admits that Deco is one of the players who influenced his development as a senior player and says that Deco's vision was the best he ever saw on a player.
Weird OP. Baggio is a god in Italy and known as one of the best forwards of his generation.
Even so, Roberto Baggio is still looked as a Serie A legendary player. Lacked a bit of consistency overall, but he was unstopable in plenty of matches.Even though I love Baggio like most, his historical assessment didn't really suffer great blow following the 1994 World Cup tragedy, and the effects from that fallout (especially wrt. the Italian media which dramatized things) are a bit overplayed from a broader context — he's rated almost exactly where he should be, IMO, and his estimation didn't sway a whole lot from the myriad hatchet jobs — not quite as great or as remarkable as Kaiser/Cruyff/Cristiano/Platini/Puskás — more towards the second or third tier of European footballers — a genuine legend, but not a true giant who dwarfed the other players of his era. Had a remarkable peak of 3-4 years, but his career and overall legacy as an attacker or footballer or leader just doesn't stack up against the best of the best from a historical perspective, even if he had won a World Cup.
Aside from the injuries that impacted his career, the biggest issue is that his Juventus stint was cut short following the appointment of Lippi...
Then they go on to establish one of the more notable dynasties of the modern era with his spiritual successor Del Piero at the fore — which reflects poorly on Baggio, while he also suffers with a Milan team that fails to recapture the glory days of the late '80s and early '90s — and then proceeds to have a fairly decent career with other clubs. Even though there's a lot of drama surrounding fall guys in the immediate to medium term, things usually even out in the grand scheme of things as their career is scrutinized more thoroughly, unless they don't recover as footballers from all the emotional or psychological damage.
But Italy at the time had so many talented forwards that the Italy NT manager could just randomly pick from Baggio, Vialli, Mancini, Casiraghi, etc
Zola was not even taken in consideration for the NT roster despite being an extremely talented forward, for crying out loud.
Giggs, Scholes, keane. Three bonafide legends of the game that if they were Italian or Dutch would be regarded as heroes, but get absolutely hammered by some of our own fans and their contribution and ability seems to diminish in line with what they say in the media. Have seen all three regarded as not all that. Which is crazy considering some players who are unanimously seen as greats.
Not sure he qualifies for this thread but Denis Irwin was such a remarkably consistent player and I think people forget how good he was. I remember it said when he retired that he would be remembered as the best full back in the pl ear but he rarely gets remembered outside of united fans. Just so solid defensively, could support attacks , took a great free kick, great first touch. We’d kill to have to someone as dependable as that nowadays.
Great performance against Juve in 99 too, like a certain other Irishman
Great performance against Juve in 99 too, like a certain other Irishman
Platini?
I'm Dutch myself, and we're not that respectful or good at honouring former players really. Very few are seen as or treated as heroes or legends by everyone.
This “only if Giggs was named Giggincha” business needs to end — there are plenty of insert random nationality players that aren't always rated at the level some reckon they should be and it isn't a unique phenomenon. See iterations of that arguments in loads of places, and it does my head in.
* This isn't a reflection on your post as a whole, it's just that the narrative really triggers me...sorry! (╯°Д°）╯
I dunno, the Beckham backlash was brutal.
The English press pinned it all on him. They separated him from the rest. I remember one headline being something like "10 Lions and 1 Twat" or words to that effect, as well as many similar headlines. Pretty sure it was the Daily Mail who put a David Beckham dartboard on the back page of the next days paper too. He was interviewed a couple of years after and he said he received countless death threats, and even bullets sent to him in the post.
He turned it around though and became a hero again, and now he seems to be universally loved since he retired, but at the time it happened it was brutal.
He was immense for us that season directly following France 98. The mental strength of that guy was ridiculous really.
Always thought David Villa has been underrated.
He is not the pinnacle of footballing ability. However although not all, alot of people underestimated his ability and his impact on the game.
He is not the pinnacle of footballing ability. However although not all, alot of people underestimated his ability and his impact on the game.
How ridiculous is that.. You must have the worst press in the world.I dunno, the Beckham backlash was brutal.
The English press pinned it all on him. They separated him from the rest. I remember one headline being something like "10 Lions and 1 Twat" or words to that effect, as well as many similar headlines. Pretty sure it was the Daily Mail who put a David Beckham dartboard on the back page of the next days paper too. He was interviewed a couple of years after and he said he received countless death threats, and even bullets sent to him in the post.
He turned it around though and became a hero again, and now he seems to be universally loved since he retired, but at the time it happened it was brutal.
He was immense for us that season directly following France 98. The mental strength of that guy was ridiculous really.
Beckhams situation with the press and the fans after '98 looked a lot like Ronaldo's after '06, when he winked after Rooneys red card. He was hated everywhere too, and he came back better than ever the following season. Ferguson did a fantastic job following up on these two incidents .
Overseas those there's a romance associated with the dutch, Italians, Brazilians etc. Its not unwarranted but i think people tend to celebrate players theyve seen less of by sheer virtue of the fact they haven't seen them week in week out. Zidane is a great example. Undoubtedly one of the best and i player i love but one who many who saw him week in week out said he could be very patchy and inconsistent borderline disinterested.
See above reply, no need to apologise i see what you mean but feel in this case its appropriate. Ive seen Bergkamp, vieira, sammer for example deified while the three i mentioned as united examples discussed as good players under fergusons watch.
Literally 80-90% of tens of my Italian friends consider Baggio their best player in history. Hardly underrated, although this penalty cost him some recognition - for obvious reasons.
I'd say Gerrard after the slip, but there is a good chance I might get banned
Willie Miller. One of the best defenders the UK has ever produced. Sadly, in terms of reputation he played his career in Scotland not England. To add insult to injury he had the temerity to play for Aberdeen and not Rangers or Celtic. His name is most used now in the context of: 'Alan Hansen, what a defender, he should have got more caps but that Miller bloke played instead'.
Willie Miller and your one handed trophy celebration. I salute you.
Willie Miller and your one handed trophy celebration. I salute you.
Forgotten players are generally those who played a long time ago or are "underrated recent players": Baggio can't belong to one of these categories.
If I had to mention an Italian citizen, a former Juventus players or a Ballon d'Or, then I wouldn't mention Baggio but Sivori
If I had to mention an Italian citizen, a former Juventus players or a Ballon d'Or, then I wouldn't mention Baggio but Sivori
Not a Madrid fan, but Emilio Butragueño would get a lot more international recognition if he had won at least one European Cup in the second half of the '80s. Anyway, he's the best Spanish player of his generation. Raúl basically achieved in 98-02 what Butragueño couldn't in 85-91.
He came second in the Ballon d’or the season after and won the treble!
Beck's career suffered after this. Certainly played a part in the way people evaluate him looking back at his career. Should be up there with the best!
Deco's legacy seems to be falling into oblivion as well.
And that's a shame: best damn midfielder of the mid '00s. (Gerrard? Ha!). Should have signed for Man. Utd after leaving Barcelona in 2008. Chelski ruined him.
And that's a shame: best damn midfielder of the mid '00s. (Gerrard? Ha!). Should have signed for Man. Utd after leaving Barcelona in 2008. Chelski ruined him.
Ballack? He seemed so much more restricted at Chelsea. Lampard got the role he should have been played in.
Don’t see him mentioned with Bastian etc as one of the better German CM’s.
Don’t see him mentioned with Bastian etc as one of the better German CM’s.
Gaetano Scirea is considered as one of Italy's and Juventus' greatest players of all time, but at least here in Germany I have hardly ever heard his name mentioned on TV and never among average football fans, while many know Zoff, Tardelli, Baresi or Gentile. Of course, his early death has prevented him from being a pundit, manager or a guest at footabll shows or interviews.
Actually, I think what makes him be undervalued as a footballer is the fact that his image was very overlooked because of his celebrity's status. By the way, Beckham was never a showman when it comes to dribbling his opponents like Ronaldinho and Neymar, even because his play style is completely different. He knew how to read the game, give accurate long passes and so on, but it doesn't call as much attention as someone who destroys other players individually.
Beck's career suffered after this. Certainly played a part in the way people evaluate him looking back at his career. Should be up there with the best!
Dragan Dzajic was a fantastic winger for Yugoslavia in early 70's.
@Ecstatic great call. At one point he was up there with Don Alfredo as the best in the world. Most of the older juventus fans who got to see him still consider him their best player ever
I’d say Rivaldo.
He’s never really put in the same light as Ronaldinho and Ronaldo. Won the ballon d’or and had some fantastic moments with Brazil and Barcelona.
He’s never really put in the same light as Ronaldinho and Ronaldo. Won the ballon d’or and had some fantastic moments with Brazil and Barcelona.
Paul Ince ? 
(Perhaps not a true ‘great’ but he’s another that I think isn’t remembered as well -ability wise- as he should be)
(Perhaps not a true ‘great’ but he’s another that I think isn’t remembered as well -ability wise- as he should be)Good shouts re: Deco & Laudrup. Also Redondo, Rui Costa, Seedorf (specially by us dutchies)
Andriy Shevchenko and George Weah. Both glossed over in conversation about great players of their era, largely due to their nationalities I suspect.
In this FIFA run game way too much stocknis put on what is done in their flagship tournament.
In this FIFA run game way too much stocknis put on what is done in their flagship tournament.
For me, Hagi and Stoichkov, perhaps Hagi the most. I thought Hagi was phenomenal to watch, but he is hardly ever talked about as a great.
Two ballon d'or winners, largely glossed over? Where???
I always thought Pablo Aimar was a fabulous player but his name doesn’t get mentioned at all these days. Others I’d include are Hagi, Boban, Nedved and Litmanen.
Don't think this did a lot for this guy's career!
The suit didn't help either!
Joking apart Fowler scored more goals for Liverpool than Michael Owen. Yet doesn't get anywhere near the same recognition as Owen does. Wonder why?? Wasn't the suit BTW!
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Exactly. They are Balon D’or winners, but are rarely mentioned in retrospective conversations about the very best. Rarely a case made for either.Two ballon d'or winners, largely glossed over? Where???
Henry, for example, had a much bigger profile than Shevchenko, but I think both were just as good. You will always hear Henry’s name come up in a convo today though while those two may be forgotten.
Paul McGrath
In England. Sheva beat him to the BoD