Trusting Jose's Judgement

[goin4glory]

Since the transfer threads on the players have been such colossal trainwrecks on the subject I was just attempting to prove a little bit more of a considered stance on the subject, offering my own point of view while also trying to remain balanced.

People can question all they like but I was just trying to say it doesn't have to be all one way or the other. Also throw anything back in my face you like but I won't be saying I told you so regardless of what transpires.

I don't see how it's an issue to get Mourinho the players he wants that're attainable, if he fails then it won't be because he wasn't supported in the transfer market. LVG failed miserably in the transfer market and lost his job, if these signings are failures then he will too.

The trainwrecks I've seen are the posters completely slating Matic, it's shocking. He's been a massive part in a Chelsea side winning 2 titles and kept Fabregas on the bench for most of last season, he's incredibly underrated. Some muppets would prefer Barkley or Nainggolan.

Have you been paying any attention to Mourinho's comments in the press about playing a 3-5-2 system this year and using it in a few pre season games? It means we can play Lukaku/Rashford up top as a duo and if all the media reports are correct and Ibra rejoins us in December/January then Lukaku/Ibra as a pairing. There's a very good chance Perisic is being brought in to play as a LWB in that system given he's a winger who rarely comes inside, has a great delivery and very good defensively.

If Perisic is a key signing to try that formation then so be it, we don't need Dembele or Reus to play a 3-5-2.

 

[Natener]

I don't have a problem with fans having a difference in judgement with the manager. I used to see plenty of it even under SAF too. I do have a problem with fans thinking that means they're right and the manager's wrong by default. We don't know the reasoning for the manager's decisions, results will determine if he's right/wrong. Last season Jose failed in the league but achieved success elsewhere. I would prefer Morata and Fabinho than Lukaku and Matic, but how do I judge Jose is wrong by adding one of the best goalscorers in the league and a regular DM in a 2-time league winning team to address his league failure? I will look an absolute tool if Jose gets us winning the league along with repeated cup success if I did that. Unlike some other fans I am cautious of looking like a tool.

 

[Akshay]

Have you been paying any attention to Mourinho's comments in the press about playing a 3-5-2 system this year and using it in a few pre season games?

He pretty clearly said it will be an option for some games and that's why we were trying it out. That doesn't equate to it being our preferred system.

 

[Hawks2008]

I trust Mourinho but this season he still has much to prove at United, no matter how you dress it up, 6th place and the Europa league is nothing to brag about. His signings were pretty good last season and I'm happy with Lukaku so far. I'm not a fan of the Matic signing but I'm even less a fan of the Perisic signing. Our wide areas are already weaker than our rivals and Perisic alone isn't enough of an improvement.

My main concern with Mourinho is his style. Winning ugly is a necessary evil at times but I'm just worried that's going to become the norm this season. I wouldn't be surprised to see many matches were we line up with Lingard, Perisic and Lukaku as a 3 backed up by a midfield featuring both Matic and Fellaini and we're just gonna be sitting very deep and pumping long balls and crosses forward all game, especially vs the top 6. Given his track record, he knows how to build title winning squads and barring disaster will win more trophies with us, but I wish we'd play a more enterprising and expansive style of football.

In all, I do think he's the guy for the job. There isn't anyone else of his pedigree we could realistically replace him with and the club should give him every thing he needs. That being said, if he gets Matic and Perisic who he has been pushing hard for then there's no more room for excuses.

 

[MILLHILLMANC]

The bottom line is that Jose is a winner wherever he manages and he has proven it here as well at United.

Saying all of that, this club has a tradition for playing fast free flowing football a la Madrid Barca - it's what has made us famous the world over.

Jose sees Fellaini as a key player.

its calls like that that make me think great manager and winner at all costs but not a Utd manager. For me Guardiola is a Utd manager.

 

[krazyrobus]

What would the people who are unhappy with this transfer window have preferred instead of what we got?

 

[2 man midfield]

Definitely. I've never won the premier league, so I would tend to bow to Jose's superior knowledge.

He knows what he wants, as has been proven at numerous clubs. If anything he's the one manager you should trust with this sort of thing. He's not David Moyes buying Juan Mata and just sticking him on the wing before telling him to do a goal. He has a clear picture in his mind of what he wants and the best man for that job.

 

[roonster09]

It's not even blindly trusting Jose's judgement, he knows what kind of players He wants and how he wants to build his team.

For example, Matic - as an individual player he isn't that good but for Jose he is important as other midfielders will have less defensive responsibility.

Saying that, so many judge players without even watching them play. So much nonsense is written about Perisic it's just unbelievable. Anyone who never watched game would think he is some sunday league player.

 

[Sad Chris]

I like to think about things thoroughly first, but as soon as I decide to do something, I go all out and stand by my decision through thick and thin. No more time for hesitation. Full speed ahead for better or for worse.

Be sceptical if it gives you a false sense of security, but in my case that stage ended when we signed him. Doesn't mean I'll always agree with every decision, but it does mean that I'm willing to put my wild guesses and personal opinions aside and offer him some trust up front.

If his signings don't work and things go tits up, ok. But until then I'll trust his judgement, experience and silverware and I'll sit back and enjoy the ride.

 

[Ninja7Red]

None of his signings last year were duds. But let's be honest we can and should be expecting a hell of a lot more out of Pogba and Mkhitaryan this coming season.

Precisely the reason why we must discuss and contemplate whether getting Perisic in would mean he bucks that trend and signs a more predictable player, who is consistent but nothing spectacular, surely?

Mourinho 's a top manager but hasn't done much at United. Europa League champion is nice and all but it's still a loser cup in my book and we finished 6th in the league last season. He's been here for one year and nothing guarantees his priority is keeping United tradition more than his self-interest (winning silverware).

Which being said he has my support but until his team look like a title challenger or champion league giant again, I don't blindly trust anyone.

Three different contrasting points delivered with not-so-contrasting style of writing. Yes, I do get that you are not a big fan of his style of operation. Yet here I am; about to help you get your thoughts together:

#1 -
Not really his fault that we ended up in Europa is it? But give credit where it's due - he helped us win it fair and square. Please don't get started off on the weak teams we played (not his doing either); but the style of play was not helped by several players going missing in crucial games - can't remember more than two, three instances in a game where the likes of Martial or Pogba lit the stadium up. The best creative bet - Mikhi - was horrendously bad in the first part of the season.

Loser Cup? You cannot possibly deny that winning it did feel good - and did the world of good to youngsters like Rashford; they will be better for this experience. And winning this Loser Cup meant that the season was transformed from an average one to a reasonable success.

#2 -
The United way - oh the United way we think is the right way; associated with our short memory spans of seeing Sir Alex's sides playing expansive football with pacy, tricky wingers hugging the touchline? That is surely exciting - but putting Jose in charge made some muppets go on as if we had just made a deal with the Devil himself.

He never set up any of his teams to be gung-ho attacking sides in his long and illustrious career; why would you suddenly expect him to change his approach which worked wonders for him in the past? Yes, there is a lot of work yet to be done for him to convince all the fans about this side's true potential. But he always comes good in his second season, doesn't he? So just let's just wait and watch.

And oh, before I forget, winning silverware is IN KEEPING with United's tradition.

#3 -
Fair points on this one; he needs to do well in the league and impress in Europe before he can be "trusted blindly".

But my question to you, fair sir, is would you trust anyone blindly even after that. Somehow, and I hope to God I am wrong, if we do perform poorly this season, you surely would be calling for his head - wouldn't you? Doesn't this past season count for anything at all, then?

I'm not entirely sure what's your point OP and I don't mean it as an insult. You don't like people questioning you questioning Mourinho? Or, should we fail, you can say 'I told you so' but should we succeed, we cannot tell you 'you ain't know shit'?

FWIW no, neither Perisic nor Matic would be my first picks (Bernardo Silva and Fabinho would be) but if Jose deems them the right players, then so be it. For all my hate towards this average Dier, if he was brought in, I wouldn't sit my ass in his thread 24/7 telling everybody how we've made a mistake and that he should feck off, scathing him at any opportunity given. It's not even about some blind belief in Mourinho, I've had the same stuff with LVG in his first season when I'd criticise our own players if they didn't play properly in the 352, not the tactic or system itself. In the second season when it was pretty clear that we're going through a fecking borefest again, it would be too much especially given that LVG's CV was last impressive around the time Jesus rode T-rex to work.

The first line, purely emphasizing what most United fans feel and behave like, along with the excellent satire makes this post the best one in this thread. Kudos, sir.

 

[devilish]

During the shareholder's meeting Woodward came out saying that the squad need tweaking and that he's not expecting alot of signings. I found that to be pretty strange tbh considering that we're in a middle of a transition period. Since then we tried to sign Morata and we failed. We tried to sign Dier and we also failed. Same can be said about Griezmann and possibly Perisic. Mourinho himself said that he's quite frustrated about it and that he might have to settle for just 3 players.

Which makes you wonder are these the signings Mou really wanted? Because by the looks of it they all seem to be second if not third choices. That would justify why Mou is so reluctant in letting go players (ex Fellaini). God knows if this club is able to bring him a replacement for him.

 

[Welbeckham]

Yes and "Jose knows his defenders" is such a tired argument. For example, I watched Lindelöf properly in EURO2016 and I wasn't impressed in the slightest. That doesn't mean I should judge him just by that. But this environment makes me feel like I should discard my opinion just because Jose supposedly knows his defenders. This place always makes me hope I'm wrong

 

[GM K]

I refuse to trust any man who declares Marouane Fellaini an important player.

 

[GBBQ]

During the shareholder's meeting Woodward came out saying that the squad need tweaking and that he's not expecting alot of signings. I found that to be pretty strange tbh considering that we're in a middle of a transition period. Since then we tried to sign Morata and we failed. We tried to sign Dier and we also failed. Same can be said about Griezmann and possibly Perisic. Mourinho himself said that he's quite frustrated about it and that he might have to settle for just 3 players.

Which makes you wonder are these the signings Mou really wanted? Because by the looks of it they all seem to be second if not third choices. That would justify why Mou is so reluctant in letting go players (ex Fellaini). God knows if this club is able to bring him a replacement for him.

Thats just nonsense to be honest.

Morata - we spent more on a seasoned and proven goal scorer
Dier - Spurs didn't want to play ball but again we're bringing in a proven midfielder who Jose knows well
Griezmann - for all intents and purposes this was a done deal except for Atletico having a transfer ban
Perisic - inter are playing hard ball but there's a month to go still and I'd guess we'll sign him

And these are 100% Mourinho signings, every news reporter has mentioned that Woodward received a list with 3 or 4 options for each position. And why would we need a replacement for Fellaini when he was only an impact sub by the end of the season.

 

[cheeky_backheel]

Matic and Perisic dogged pursuits at rumored prices have been baffling to me, as I felt there should be reasonable alternatives available to either player.

Mourinho usually knows what the team needs but is often less accurate in identifying which player would provide what he is looking for, and thus he has his own fair share of failed transfers like any other manager.

The risky part is when he is fixated on a player and wants the club to get him no matter the cost (and throws a tantrum when they dont) e.g. Carvalho at Inter and Stones at Chelsea. The fixation puts the club in a weak negotiating position.

In fairness to him, he admitted he was totally wrong on Lucio who had been signed instead of Carvalho against his wishes, as Inter refused to meet Chelsea's demand.

I think its a tough balance to achieve as you want the manager to get the players he wants, but it should also be within reason as the players tend to stick around longer than the manager. A good process would involve the manager providing targets and reasonable alternatives (and not asking to sign unrealistic targets).

Improved scouting and relationship with some feeder clubs could also help in giving the manager a wider and/or affordable pool of players to choose from

 

[Stevie G's Red Card]

Around a year ago, Squawka helpfully assembled two teams - the best and worst Mourinho signings over the years. He doesn't get it right every time that's for sure ...

Best Signings II:
Lopez
Lucio, Carvalho, Cole, P Ferreira
Essien, Sneijder, Ozil
Eto'o, Drogba, Di Maria

Worst Signings II:
Hilario
Djilobodji, Ben-Haim, Del Horno, Boulahrouz
Jarosik, Mariga, Quaresma, Leon
Shevchenko, Kezman

You can see article at http://www.squawka.com/news/combine.../680421#!squawka-gallery-25//0/MouWorstXI.jpg

 

[cheeky_backheel]

What would the people who are unhappy with this transfer window have preferred instead of what we got?

Younger players than Perisic and Matic

 

[sglowrider]

I trust that he's making us hard to beat (Moyes likes this) but I don't trust that he will get us playing great entertaining football.

When did United play football the way United was supposed to play the United way? 2008?

Fergie was pragmatic/dire for years but no one complained because we were winning.

 

[kouroux]

Doubting the decision of any manager is not a problem as long as it's done fairly. I doubted some of SAF's decisions, specially in his last 4-5 seasons. No one is immune from criticism and certainly not Jose. Signings like Lindelof and Perisic underwhelme a lot whereas I think Matic/Lukaku are good acquisitions. When I consider a player, his price means almost feck all to me because now the market is loco. Whoever is signed and confirmed to be a Man Utd player, will receive my support from day one, just like any other player.
However having doubts over them is fine by me.

What would the people who are unhappy with this transfer window have preferred instead of what we got?

One of Lemar/Fabinho or both (one could dream) for me but tbh I'm fine Matic. It's Perisic that I find weird.

 

[Wumminator]

But my question to you, fair sir, is would you trust anyone blindly even after that. Somehow, and I hope to God I am wrong, if we do perform poorly this season, you surely would be calling for his head - wouldn't you? Doesn't this past season count for anything at all, then?



The first line, purely emphasizing what most United fans feel and behave like, along with the excellent satire makes this post the best one in this thread. Kudos, sir.

I think you're trying to give off an air of knowledge by posting absolute nonsense like this, but if I were you I'd stop the "kind sir" thing pretty sharpish because it makes you sound like a knob.

 

[Siorac]

When did United play football the way United was supposed to play the United way? 2008?

Fergie was pragmatic/dire for years but no one complained because we were winning.

Actually, plenty of people complained about the quality of football in the final years of his reign. The "Static, slow motion zombie passing" thread was very popular and regularly near the top.

Since then we got the worst of both worlds: we still play shite stuff and we're no longer competitive in the Premier League.

 

[devilish]

Thats just nonsense to be honest.

Morata - we spent more on a seasoned and proven goal scorer
Dier - Spurs didn't want to play ball but again we're bringing in a proven midfielder who Jose knows well
Griezmann - for all intents and purposes this was a done deal except for Atletico having a transfer ban
Perisic - inter are playing hard ball but there's a month to go still and I'd guess we'll sign him

And these are 100% Mourinho signings, every news reporter has mentioned that Woodward received a list with 3 or 4 options for each position. And why would we need a replacement for Fellaini when he was only an impact sub by the end of the season.

Read my post again. I never said that Mourinho didn't want them. I only suggesting that they might have been second or third options in that list. You have to admit that there's a tiny weeny difference in terms of quality between Griezmann and Perisic or Morata and Lukaku (the latter is a scorer but technically he's nowhere near to the Spanish striker). Matic might be as good (or even slightly better) to Dier but age is hardly at his side, which is a problem for a DM.

I am not a big fan of Fellaini myself but I think that selling him without adequate replacement would be a massive mistake. We're pretty light (in terms of staff) in CM. Maybe Mou doesn't any confidence in Woody's ability to bring someone to replace Fellaini? He did said that he might be forced to reduce his list from 4 players to 3 players after all.

 

[GBBQ]

Which makes you wonder are these the signings Mou really wanted? Because by the looks of it they all seem to be second if not third choices.

 

[kouroux]

Actually, plenty of people complained about the quality of football in the final years of his reign. The "Static, slow motion zombie passing" thread was very popular and regularly near the top.

Since then we got the worst of both worlds: we still play shite stuff and we're no longer competitive in the Premier League.

Exactly! The decline of the quality of football has been apparent for almost 10 years now, there were dozens and dozens of thread of the same subject including the famous one you mentionned. If that happened under SAF in a rather successful period, why would it be any better under Jose ?

 

[devilish]

exactly what I said in the previous post! By the looks of it they were not Mou's no 1 option but simply his reserve options ie Bring Fellaini since we can't get Fabregas sort of thing.

 

[Ninja7Red]

I think you're trying to give off an air of knowledge by posting absolute nonsense like this, but if I were you I'd stop the "kind sir" thing pretty sharpish because it makes you sound like a knob.

What aspects of my post gave off an air of knowledge, would you kindly let me know, knob-caller?

"Absolute nonsense" you call it. I can't help but feel I am being targeted here for having an opinion quite different from yours.

But since I don't like taking personal liberties, let's keep this discussion on point and see if you can follow up with precisely where is this "absolute nonsense" that got you all rattled about.

Guess you're being a WUM if you fail to realise I used the "kind sir" so as to point out, rather politely, that the original poster's opinions were biased.

 

[Nighteyes]

If Jose suggested jumping of the nearest bridge some posters on here would begin queueing up because "Jose said so".

 

[Ninja7Red]

And before you start making any judgments on me, I really appreciated your thread on "Potential Milestones for the upcoming season". Your name did sound kind of familiar :

Nice post there mate! Thanks for collecting these and sharing with us.

Would love to see some more stats from you; all apart from the first one were really not that obvious

 

[BULB]

Oh yeah so where do you draw the line?
What if Matic and Perisic were 75m each? How about 100m each?
Should we be backing Jose blindly paying 100m each for these two?
For some people 50m each is already paying over the odds for two 29 year olds.
If they were both available for 25m each I don't think anyone would have a problem and let Jose have his players.
I back Jose to bring in any player he wants, but not for any price he wants.
Nothing wrong with questioning where we spend our not unlimited funds. Some people like to look at the bigger picture, not just one year ahead.
If you are going to throw around crazy money like 100m for those two, I'd rather bid 150m for Paulo Dybala to be honest.

 

[villain]

Oh yeah so where do you draw the line?
What if Matic and Perisic were 75m each? How about 100m each?
Should we be backing Jose blindly paying 100m each for these two?
For some people 50m each is already paying over the odds for two 29 year olds.
If they were both available for 25m each I don't think anyone would have a problem and let Jose have his players.
I back Jose to bring in any player he wants, but not for any price he wants.
Nothing wrong with questioning where we spend our not unlimited funds. Some people like to look at the bigger picture, not just one year ahead.
If you are going to throw around crazy money like 100m for those two, I'd rather bid 150m for Paulo Dybala to be honest.

If ifs and butts were candy & nuts, we'd all have a Merry Christmas.

 

[markhrad]

I was never a fan of Jose due to his perceived massive ego but the way he handled Rooney last season and figured out that Mata, at Chelsea, was not all that his stats made him out to be, makes me feel that the man is probably a genius.
He is clearly cerebral in the way he gets his players to believe in him while playing mind games with the media and opposing managers. Poor Wenger and next is going to be poor Conte.
His style of play in the past may not be the " Utd way" but its early still plus the last 4 years we were not contenders and played like crap now at least we will be contenders.
It seems like in Jose I trust. Sounds almost blasphemous.

 

[whatwha]

When did United play football the way United was supposed to play the United way? 2008?

Fergie was pragmatic/dire for years but no one complained because we were winning.

Our football was nowhere near as bad under SAF as during post SAF. We used to score a lot more goals for one thing and created more chances over the course of each season.

And people did complain about the quality of the football under SAF even as we were grinding out 1-0 wins at times. He was never beyond criticism.

 

[iKeano]

I refuse to trust any man who declares Marouane Fellaini an important player.

I came here to say basically this... might have went as far as to say I refuse to trust any man who declares Marouane Fellaini a player.

 

[devilish]

I refuse to trust any man who declares Marouane Fellaini an important player.

Back in the day SAF faced the media knowing fully well that he'll be asked about JSV. The Argentinian was not delivering the goods at OT and he was clearly unhappy with United. Chelsea were reported to be in advanced negotiations to sign him up. When the journalist asked the obvious, SAF went ballistic. He clearly said that JSV is an intergral part of the team and is there to stay. Less then a month later Veron became a Chelsea player.

I am not saying that the same will happen with Fellaini. Quite the contrary, I suspect that Mou is going to keep him till his end of contract. The reason being that Woody is finding it very very hard to sign players and irrespective whether we buy Matic or not we're still 1 men short in midfield. Having said that, I encourage you not to take the manager's press conference too seriously. Managers lie. They have to else they might drive the price down or, if the player in question isn't sold, they might end up with one unhappy player in their team.

The only 2 ways we can determine if Fellaini (or any other player really) is important to the manager is if

a- if he plays week in week out. An important player is also a first teamer
b- if he's handled a new contract. No one would let an important player go on a free.

 

[Shark]

Mourinho 's a top manager but hasn't done much at United. Europa League champion is nice and all but it's still a loser cup in my book and we finished 6th in the league last season. He's been here for one year and nothing guarantees his priority is keeping United tradition more than his self-interest (winning silverware).

Which being said he has my support but until his team look like a title challenger or champion league giant again, I don't blindly trust anyone.

He didn't live up to expectations last season, which was to at least mount a genuine title challenge, but to to say he hasn't done much is insane. Two trophies and a direct gateway back into the Champions League is fantastic no mattter who you are and based on the three seasons that followed SAF's retirement, last season was a vital step in all the right directions.

 

[Shark]

I refuse to trust any man who declares Marouane Fellaini an important player.

What about a man that declared Phil Jones potentially the best player to ever play for Manchester United?

 

[Ninja7Red]

@Wumminator In hindsight (and after getting sober enough), my usage of "Sir" does sound a wee bit over the top; guess that's the weekend hangover taking its toll.

Gonna restrict that booze for sometime

 

[sglowrider]

Our football was nowhere near as bad under SAF as during post SAF. We used to score a lot more goals for one thing and created more chances over the course of each season.

And people did complain about the quality of the football under SAF even as we were grinding out 1-0 wins at times. He was never beyond criticism.

Moyes had a clusterfeck of a season. LVG's 2nd season was poor too. But you got to understand that for the bulk of Fergie's years, he was luckily able to compete because of the amount of money saved from the Class of 92 and spending it on other areas. No other club was able to get six kids through their system at one go.

There is a lot more money in the league now when compared to Fergie's years. You combine the fact that Fergie was able to save with the Class of 92 and now clubs being able to spend so much more, there is a lot more parity in the league now than during the Fergie years. (Used to be basically United v Arsenal for so long then we added Chelsea.)

Finally, the clubs nowadays have more sophisticated, defensive-minded foreign coaches who tactically are more astute than the bulk the opposition of Fergie's years. Many now have the simple philosophy that you defend first.

Would Fergie be able to be so swashbuckling now? I am not so sure.

Ultimately, its just really difficult to compare different eras on how they would do.

 

[goin4glory]

He pretty clearly said it will be an option for some games and that's why we were trying it out. That doesn't equate to it being our preferred system.

At no point did I say it would be a preferred system.

 

[rocks13]

Moyes had a clusterfeck of a season. LVG's 2nd season was poor too. But you got to understand that for the bulk of Fergie's years, he was luckily able to compete because of the amount of money saved from the Class of 92 and spending it on other areas. No other club was able to get six kids through their system at one go.

There is a lot more money in the league now when compared to Fergie's years. You combine the fact that Fergie was able to save with the Class of 92 and now clubs being able to spend so much more, there is a lot more parity in the league now than during the Fergie years. (Used to be basically United v Arsenal for so long then we added Chelsea.)

Finally, the clubs nowadays have more sophisticated, defensive-minded foreign coaches who tactically are more astute than the bulk the opposition of Fergie's years. Many now have the simple philosophy that you defend first.

Would Fergie be able to be so swashbuckling now? I am not so sure.

Ultimately, its just really difficult to compare different eras on how they would do.

I wouldn't say that Guardiola, Pochettino or Klopp have that philosophy