Turning on Rangnick

sosolid4u09

Full Member
Joined
Jan 8, 2012
Messages
1,466
I dont understand what donny has done to deserve this
 

giggs-beckham

Clueless
Joined
Sep 9, 2007
Messages
5,843
We all thought it would be Cavani coming off for Bruno. Cavani looked low on energy all first half, then came out in the second half harrying about as if he had been told to give everything for the next 15 minutes before a pre-planned substitution.
He said it was between Cavani and Mason who'd come off. And that Cavani was more of a striker or something so he subbed off Mason. Flimsy logic and said the crowd weren't happy cus Masons a homegrown player.
 

Pronewbie

Peep
Joined
May 17, 2004
Messages
3,300
Location
In front of My Computer
No one is suggesting we shut things down and I'm not saying he should go scorched earth and send those dissenting to the reserves. There's a balancing act but the priority has to be the long term development of this squad and overhauling the failed structure that has lead us to this point. If some players are upset over that then so be it. Not a single one of them has earned any sort of indispensable status.

We decided to go this direction after Ole failed and given our preferred choices obviously weren't available it made sense to bring in Ralf in this capacity. People really need to give their head a shake if they think Ralf was brought in because of his management pedigree. If the goal was to get top four and put the long term planning off to the summer then the appointment made no sense at all. Ralf's job first and foremost is putting in place a direction for this club on and off the pitch - I'd far prefer he does that effectively even if it means we finish 6th or 7th. There's far more important work to be done than securing CL football next year.
The club’s in a mess and everyone - the board, players, coaching staff have a part in this. I also think it’s knee jerk to completely dismiss Rangnick so early on.

Where I disagree with you are his priorities and KPIs for the next 5 months. He’s not hired as a DOF or Consultant, he’s our interim manager. Therefore, he has to focus on results on the pitch, while planning for the future and prioritising low-hanging fruits. As manager, he should have enough non-playing staff to delegate a sizable chunk of the execution work.

Where the summer helps is the replacement of players for our new playing philosophy. In the meantime, he cannot be absconded for poor performances and non-entertaining football. I’d also argue that securing CL football next year is critical to attract better players for the rebuild.

It’s a tough balancing act for sure.
 

dwd

Saturday Night Spies
Joined
Jan 16, 2012
Messages
15,035
Location
Under soil heating.
I am very very concerned, not really sure what difference he has made at all so far. The 'we were conceding 2 goals per game before I came, today we almost got a clean sheet' line was especially alarming. Did he see how many chances Wolves created? I am worried he doesn't quite grasp the enormity of the problem he is trying to solve nor am I convinced his methods will end up being compatible. Severely hope I am wrong though.
 

ForeverRed1

Full Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2013
Messages
2,684
Location
England UK!
Not turning on him but questioning some of his decisions for sure. He’s still not dropping some of the bigger names that need dropping. Of course it’s still all early days, hoping he gets a defensive midfielder ASAP.
 

Esquire

Full Member
Joined
Feb 28, 2014
Messages
2,154
I was never a fan from the beginning. Everything about him screams Van Gaal and more except for the face he's never proven himself at the top level. He talks a good game but the sooner he fecks off the better.
The common denominator is the players? We have literally tried everything else. Surely the players cannot escape scrutiny. No matter how harsh the reality is, this mix of players just don’t work. You can chalk it down to chemistry, desire whatever else which can be a factor. It’s clear that we need another rebuild.
 

Esquire

Full Member
Joined
Feb 28, 2014
Messages
2,154
Why are we turning on the manager? It’s the players. How’s he meant to account for so many unnecessary errors?

I’m not even a massive fan of his but he’s been given a totally unbalanced squad and we’re expecting him to work wonders?

Tonight was shite as we’re the games at Newcastle and Norwich so I understand the frustrations. But these players didn’t look arsed under Jose, they gave up eventually under Ole and now seemingly haven’t even bothered for this guy.

They don’t deserve our support any more than the man coaching them.
Completely with you. Yes, the 4222 doesn’t work. RR has made mistakes. He needs to play guys like Lingard and be realistic that he doesn’t have the personnel to play 4222 right now. Not with these players but last night was along with a string of performances lasting over a few months absolutely unacceptable. Those guys couldn’t even string a few passes together. Played into traps set by Wolves. FFS the Wolves team did not even have a hard time.

You can say some of the players aren’t good enough. That’s fair but my word when we get out worked, out tackled, beaten to second balls consistently to the likes of Newcastle and Burnley then you know a clear out is needed. We don’t want to admit it but it’s staring us in the face, this squad needs a massive churn.
 

RedIan

Full Member
Joined
Dec 30, 2015
Messages
1,946
Location
Manchester
The wolves manager clearly knew RR would play 4-2-2-2 and tactically set up to smash that system with 5 midfielders and wingbacks exploiting our narrow formation…. Other managers will follow suit.
I hope RR isn’t a one trick pony.
To early to judge him but I’m slightly concerned.
 

Siezard

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Dec 9, 2020
Messages
915
Ralf don't seem to understand the United way. Should hire back Carrick.
 

Houdini

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Sep 20, 2017
Messages
1,514
And what about Jose? Or LVG? or Moyes? We were so unfit back than it was unreal.
 

redIndianDevil

Full Member
Joined
Jun 24, 2017
Messages
2,890
Turning on him? What is the point of that? He is an interim and he took the job on the promise that he will be a consultant after his interim role. We have to write this season off not because Rangnick is not up to it, this season was written off when we decided to retain with Ole at the end of last season.
 

SteveCoppellFan

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Jul 17, 2014
Messages
236
Ive watched too many episodes of Vikings lately, I keep calling our manager Ragnar.

Regardless of that .. he needs to change what he's doing as its eerily similar to what Ole did, I assumed he was a couple of levels above that nonsense.
 

Zed 101

Full Member
Joined
Jun 27, 2014
Messages
589
Our players are not doing it and I am not sure that any manager is going to impact that, they need a kick up the "£$%, I think their confidence is shot and their form is atrocious, no easy fix for this, even Pep would take months to get a tune out of them.... this is compounded by years of failing to properly address the lack of quality in DM instead bringing in unnecessary additions i.e. Ronaldo and Sancho

I watch us play now and over the last 12 months, then I watch other matches (not utd) and it is like we are playing a different game, and not in a good way, the gaps between our midfield and defence and down the wings is just unbeliveable
 

kkengvib

Full Member
Joined
Jan 10, 2011
Messages
128
Location
Basel, Switzerland
I do disagree with some of the decisions that he's made in terms of team shape/formation and player selection but at least he is honest about the team's assessment. He doesn't blindly defend the performance and over protect the players like Ole did.

It would be interesting what kind of changes (if any) he makes over the next few games. Does he insist on his style or does he make some compromises (we haven't really pressed since the 1st game have we?). I just don't think we have the right players to immediately implement his vision of how we should play. A lot of our players just don't have the technical/physical ability to carry out the quick passing and/or the pressing he wants.

No point turning on him now. He's only managing the team until the end of the season anyway. Top 4 would be a fantastic achievement at this point and I'm keen to see he sets the squad up for next season. Unfortunately this could be a painful season for us
 
  • Like
Reactions: oates

Matt851

Full Member
Joined
Sep 10, 2016
Messages
1,108
Ralf needs to stop experimenting with two striker systems ASAP otherwise he risks pissing away what little time he has to develop a coherent team. The frustrating aspect of his reign so far is that he appears not to have watched us much in the preceding months and is making the same mistakes as ole. Of course a two man midfield including matic is going to get overrun by wolves. And playing two immobile strikers who like to head the ball and then relying on wan bissaka to cross to them is obviously a terrible idea

Ronaldo needs to be dropped because he can't play up top on his own and our midfield can't cope with only two players. Bring Bruno back in as part of a midfield 3
 

justsomebloke

Full Member
Joined
Oct 25, 2020
Messages
3,030
Some combination of the following reasons:
  1. Fans being back meaning more pressure on a mentally weak squad
  2. Ronaldo unbalances the team tactically and psychologically
  3. Euro hangovers for key players
  4. Entropy, Ole's vibes had run their course and we regressed to the mean.
  5. Ultimately, when things fall apart they do so slowly, and then quickly.
I'm gonna spin a bit from your point 5 there. The hypothesis goes like this:

A dysfunctional team like we were in say November 2019 becomes gradually better by solving different areas of its game better, one by one (I know, no shit Sherlock). If it continues doing so, without regressing in other areas, it gradually evolves into an elite team. It takes time and there are ups and downs, and that's fine as long as the process generally keeps moving in the right direction. But if that process stalls, and too many players are asked to do more than they're really able to for too long, there's a risk the squad end up feeling in their guts that those lofty ambitions are just getting further and further away from them, and a form of collapse takes place in the end. If a problem is seen by everyone but isn't solved, everyone ends up being a part of it, affected by it.

So, let's assume that there are three phases involved here:

1. Improvement to the peak point of Ole's reign - which I would argue was the post-lockdown part of the 2019-20 season.
2. Long phase of trying to improve beyond that - the 20/21 season (slow decline)
3. The collapse phase - this season


Peak point first. The key components of that were:

- Bruno freewheeling, creating and scoring, arguably the most dynamic attacker in the league
- Rashford very effective on the left, Martial knocking them in as the 9 and Greenwood enjoying a breakthrough on the right side
- Matic and Pogba forming an effective partnership in the middle
- Back four generally reasonable stable and reliable defensively

There were two major unsolved issues:

- Goaltending, with De Gea performing significantly below previous levels
- Limited offensive contributions from the back four (ie, the full backs)

That was the point of reference as we were heading into 20/21 - the level we had showed over over a sustained period that we had, and from which we needed to improve further to sustain our evolution into a top team.

As it would turn out however, a bigger problem was the sustainability of what we already seemed to have in place.


Relative to this point, 20/21 brought an increase in the number of problem areas, and hence regression. Martial fell off a cliff, and though Cavani brought a lot of positives his game time was too limited and his scoring too infrequent to really fill the void. Greenwood was plainly not yet ready to just keep building on the previous season's breakthrough, and had considerably less impact than in the previous spring. This meant that while we'd had a highly dynamic and effective front 4, we now had 2 problem positions in that part of the team. This was partly offset by Rashford's full return, and by the development of his offensive partnership with Luke Shaw who finally emerged as a dominant left back (and hence solved half the problem of missing contributions from the back 4). But it also put even more pressure on Bruno to carry the torch, making him undroppable (and hence likely to be worn down) and the team more vulnerable.

The bigger issue however was central midfield. It quickly became apparent during the horrible 3 opening games that the Matic/Pogba combo, which had been at least adequate the previous spring, was not really usable. Ole turned to McTominay and Fred instead, for defensive balance. That in turn helped the central defence perform better than the previous season. But they did so by being better shielded, not by advancing towards a higher calibre of play. And it gradually became very clear that the CM acted as a main limiting factor on how the team was able to perform offensively. Also, as time wore on they increasingly struggled to deliver defensive stability. It was becoming apparent that McFred was simply being asked to do more than they were able to do, on most nights. Meanwhile, there was no sense that we knew how to best use one of our best players, Pogba, which added another point of insecurity. Finally, question marks in goal were not settled but rather multiplied as we oscillated between Henderson and a still underperforming De Gea. And Wan-Bissaka was simply not developing the offensive side we needed him too, and was also overused due to the lack of alternatives. Not being able to progress, he regressed - to the point where he was sometimes a defensive liability.

When we were a good team last season, it was usually because Bruno was great, Rashford and Shaw dominated down the left and McFred had one of the increasingly rare evenings where they were able to pull it together defensively and offensively and the defence could cope with what remained. But in the long run, all of those wilted. Bruno was worn down. Rashford too, especially as he struggled with niggling injuries. For McFred the frequency of the games where they could not cope kept increasing, until it must have become really difficult for themselves or the rest of the squad to retain confidence - a bad spiral. Shaw and Maguire finally hit the wall after the Euros.

So in the end, that's too many areas that don't work well, and too few that does. What is worse, the former are becoming more numerous, the latter fewer. The players must know this. We are regressing, though we are still getting decent results.

If you assume that as the starting point for this season, the collapse makes some sense. What remains to account for is the impact of this summer's arrivals. In theory, they ought to have fixed three problem areas from last season. However, Varane arrived late and then were injured for a long period. Also, while he has been good, he could not offset Maguire's dramatic drop in form. Sancho has also taken his time to adjust, and probably added to challenges rather than alleviate them in the first months. Also, ironically, the problem he was supposed to solve no longer exists as much, because this year, it is clear that Greenwood is more than ready to shoulder a major role. And then there's Ronaldo. He certainly fills the striker position. But he also looks like not quite the right thing arriving too late. Either Bruno and Rashford were already burnt out and demoralised, or he's not a good fit. Whatever the reason, we now seem further than ever away from the collective attacking dynamism we possessed in the spring of 2020.
 
Last edited:

Dans

Correctly predicted Portugal to win Euro 2016
Joined
Jun 4, 2001
Messages
26,382
Location
Oberbayern
How long has it taken you to turn on Rangnick?

5 games in and the footy is flaccid, no penetration.

Get Ten Haard in.
I don't think any manager can get what they want out of this squad. It is completely unbalanced and lacks the right players to play the system we need to play (4-3-3) to even hope to compete with City, Liverpool or Chelsea. Arsenal will be better than us soon. Kinell.
 

Demas

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Apr 8, 2014
Messages
91
Supports
Chelsea
Forum was wanking over this guy when he came in and the difference he would make compared to Ole. Now it’s already at the point of blaming the players
The number of drooling emojis were through the roof and it's hilarious in hindsight. I didn't know anything about him at the time but it sounded like he was some kind sort of god
 

sparx99

Full Member
Joined
May 22, 2016
Messages
2,627
It still seems like we are trying to use all of our attacking players. We need to sacrifice an attacker to play with more control.

It needs to be Sancho or Greenwood, Rashford or Lingard, Cavani or Ronaldo. That’s why you have competition and/or depth.

The best teams around the world have almost exclusively played 4-3-3 for a decade now and yet we still persist in not playing that way. Yes, we don’t have a world class DM but you make do with the best option in that position until you do get one.

We need to decide how we plan on playing and systematically sell those who don’t fit and buy players who do. This will include selling good players.
 

Bestietom

Full Member
Joined
Dec 16, 2013
Messages
7,597
Location
Ireland
Yes, I am with most fans on here. I am concerned about the system he tries to play. I am concerned that he is not wanting a Midfielder or 2 in this window ( ASAP).
We see full backs running up the field and no one to pass the ball to. Shaw was right in saying " We are not together". There is something rotten going on inside this club and we need to dig the culprits out, then get rid this month and bring in players that want to play for the badge.
As a fan I'm really sick to the teeth seeing players sulk and stroll around the pitch, and not putting in a performance their fat wage packets demand. Now If it is a case they do not agree with the system, they surely can speak with the manger as he said his door is always open.
 

Maticmaker

Full Member
Joined
Nov 8, 2018
Messages
3,315
Listening to Ralf Rangnick I get the feeling he is not into the 'cult status' of being a PL manager.

You get the feeling he is still surveying what he has available to him in terms of players and skill levels and how they respond to his ideas and how they react to instructions. I suspect he still think he has a few things to try out yet and he doesn't appear to expect miracles, which will be bad news for lots of our fans.

Some of the (proverbial) 'soup' has been in the pot a long time and continual stirring has tended to make it more sluggish rather than clear, so its not going to be a easy road and I perceive Ralf is isn't promising that. When he has gone through all his options we will have to see where he intends to go from there. I think he will need to start from scratch with predominately younger players, with more zest and enthusiasm, more energy and who collectively represent a sort of 'blank canvas' that he can write on!

Our hunt for 'Glory Glory Man United' days to return is along way off and Ralf knows it, we are miles behind City, Liverpool, Chelsea, streets behind West Ham and Spurs (now) and it seems falling behind Wolves and their like.

Big big job Ralf!
 

AndySmith1990

Full Member
Joined
Oct 2, 2021
Messages
1,587
I don't understand the calls for Ralf to make changes, just to accommodate our players and what's best for them. One of our biggest problems has been changing managers that have completely different visions, and that's led to having a squad that consists of players that don't work well together.

If we keep ripping up the plan and starting again when things aren't going well we'll never get anywhere. We should trust the manager and allow him to implement his system as best he can. If some players can be coached to fit it then great, we keep them, and the others we weed out and gradually replace with players who fit.

We need to endure the pain to get the long term rewards. Great teams aren't built in weeks, they take years. How long did it take Liverpool to progress from the days of Hodgson and Andy Carroll to the team they've become? Did Klopp change his vision and do something different when he joined and there were players who couldn't do what was asked of them? No, he stuck at it and bought players that possessed the attributes he needed.

The entitled and short term attitude some of you are showing would lead us to being in the same position forever. We play poor and lose? Change formation and the starting XI immediately, it's that easy apparently.
 

James35

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Jan 3, 2021
Messages
1,620
Location
Cardiff
He has had 6 games now and to be honest we look just as crap or worse in some cases. He was doomed to fail from the get go mind, the club is a mess. I was more excited for his behind the scenes role than this interim period. The season could end now for all I care as it will only get worse before it gets better.
 

sparx99

Full Member
Joined
May 22, 2016
Messages
2,627
The number of drooling emojis were through the roof and it's hilarious in hindsight. I didn't know anything about him at the time but it sounded like he was some kind sort of god
It is disappointing not being able to see even a hint of what he’s known for. We pressed in the first half of Crystal Palace and that’s about it.

I guess two things give me pause:

1. Is he trying to do a ‘little bit of pressing’ because it’s mid season, busy fixture list and we had a big COVID outbreak?

2. Is he trying to change too much or too little? Are we simply seeing a team who are a mish mash of two very different coaches and it’s resulted in it looking awful? Shaw said he didn’t know who to pass to. Is that because players aren’t getting into positions Ralf wants them to?

Here’s hoping a week of training before Villa can yield some progress because it’s hard to watch right now.
 

DomM

New Member
Newbie
Joined
May 27, 2018
Messages
208
Surely RR must see that playing two in midfield doesn't work, no matter what combination.

At a minimum we need three midfielders in there to give us any chance of competing, two wide players who actually attack and defend the wide spaces and a striker who can hold the ball and bring others into play.

At the moment we just look like a bunch of pub players with no coaching, definitely one of the worst teams in the league.
 

Water Melon

before it dries out, eh
Joined
Jan 22, 2014
Messages
4,824
Location
garden bed
After Luke Shaw's interview it is quite clear that there are issues in the dressing room. Even if we do not qualify for CL next season but manage to really change the mentality of our squad, I would be extremely grateful to Ralf. Get rid of players who are happy to collect their wages and do not care much about winning trophies. Get rid of egomaniacs with "holier than thou" mentality. Get rid of players who think that they are doing us, fans, a favour by playing for Man Utd. Anyone who is not willing to give his all for the team needs to be shown the door. Even if it takes an extra season or two to build a squad that is hungry for wins, trophies and is always ready to play out of their skins, I will get behind this trophyless but extremely useful process.
 

UnsungHero

Full Member
Joined
Feb 12, 2012
Messages
737
Location
Monitoring the preparation of the Vidal bid
If you want to use that argument, well Tuchel got his CL title, Arteta got FA cup and even Ole had 10 win streak with PSG elimination during the same period.
What's the point of implementing some new system for only 6 months like the next manager will use it? We all know that he won't, especially if we aim for Ten Haag. Rangnick's goal should be to steady the ship, to try to get top 4 in easiest possible way, and then to choose new manager whom he will support on all levels.
I get that, but ultimately there are no guarantees. Rangnick was an unusual appointment in that he's more of a club builder for the long term. I think that was the right move, as our club needs a complete reset in order to compete at the top table of modern football. We are miles off.

Unfortunately there's no escaping the fact we have a frankly bizarre dressing room dynamic and I don't think any manager could fix that in the space of a month. And let's be fair, despite some poor performances, the results have been OK. Better than the freefall we had under Ole.

COVID also doesn't help matters, whatever anyone might say.
 

MacarisSocks

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Oct 25, 2020
Messages
67
He's called Ralf, not Merlin.

Like sticking a new captain on the
Titanic after the icebergs been spotted, Solksjier had three years of giving out daft contracts to players who dont play, not selling players who he wont play and failing to buy the right player's for the positions we need.

We have to give RR the time to asses the problems he inherited.
 

UnitedSofa

Full Member
Joined
Jul 12, 2013
Messages
3,106
He has had 6 games now and to be honest we look just as crap or worse in some cases. He was doomed to fail from the get go mind, the club is a mess. I was more excited for his behind the scenes role than this interim period. The season could end now for all I care as it will only get worse before it gets better.
6 sporadic games where he has had little to no time with the players.
 

Waynne

Full Member
Joined
Aug 21, 2014
Messages
604
6 sporadic games where he has had little to no time with the players.
Add in massive covid outbreak in the squad and the PL as a whole + busy fixture list.

Our fanbase is just as bad or worse than the current crop of players. People throwing their toys out of the pram already :lol:
 

red4ever 79

New Member
Joined
Aug 27, 2015
Messages
9,530
Location
Czech Republic
Ridiculous to turn on the coach when it is quite clearly the attitude of the players. How many more managers are we going to go through whilst this petulant bunch of non achievers (barring a couple of exceptions) continue to cheat the fans and the club.

I have never come across a more lazy self entitled group of players in my life.
 

Ixion

Full Member
Joined
Apr 11, 2003
Messages
15,275
An honest assessment of the squad reveals the job he has on his hands

Short term solutions that need replacing : Ronaldo, Cavani, Matic
Overpaid/elevated above their level : Shaw, AWB, Maguire, McTominay, Sancho, Rashford (how many trophies does this group have between them?)
Want to leave : Mata, Martial, DVB, Henderson, Pogba, Lingard (probably Baily)
Not proven enough : Telles, Dalot, Fred
Jones : Jones

And then you're left with the likes of DDG, Bruno, Lindelof, Varane, Greenwood who you can't complain about but can have bad dips in form. Rangnick inherits that lot and needs to make it work, it cant be normal for a squad to have around 10 players that want to leave or will be leaving within a year.
 
Last edited:

Tom Cato

Full Member
Joined
Jan 3, 2019
Messages
6,540
Ralf stated that he would not be opposed to taking the managerial position on a permanent basis if the club asked him after the season, so he's obviously hoping that he can find success here BEFORE doing his consulting role.

New managers are always judged on what they do in the immediate bounce. Its how Ole got the job in the first place, but so far its doing Rangnick no favors at all.
 

Figgins

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Jan 2, 2016
Messages
1,015
Location
Araʻura
It seems Ralf is trying to keep powerful personalities happy rather than take control. Try herding cats
 

UnitedWA

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Aug 9, 2019
Messages
48
I get that, but ultimately there are no guarantees. Rangnick was an unusual appointment in that he's more of a club builder for the long term. I think that was the right move, as our club needs a complete reset in order to compete at the top table of modern football. We are miles off.

Unfortunately there's no escaping the fact we have a frankly bizarre dressing room dynamic and I don't think any manager could fix that in the space of a month. And let's be fair, despite some poor performances, the results have been OK. Better than the freefall we had under Ole.

COVID also doesn't help matters, whatever anyone might say.
I agree, forgot to add that I am not against Rangnick. I tend to "hate" players more and more as time keeps going. Hopefully he will analyze who's the root of the problem and get rid of them ASAP. But it would be easier to continue if we get CL place for the next season which we won't if he keeps implementing his system which our lazy players won't and don't want to learn.
 

arthurka

Full Member
Joined
Jan 20, 2010
Messages
15,588
Location
Rectum
Add in massive covid outbreak in the squad and the PL as a whole + busy fixture list.

Our fanbase is just as bad or worse than the current crop of players. People throwing their toys out of the pram already :lol:
You could add to that a squad that has had 2 previous managers thrown out the door. What has been assembled here is nothing short of a tragedy.
This squad is not balanced, no idea what should be played or any idea how to go forward. Ronaldo and Cavani are the the perfect picture off a broken ideology and just patches on an open wound.
Using that money to buy Ronaldo instead of getting a midfielder is just baffling really, DVB also he cost us 40m and plays once in a full moon or less.
I just hope Ralf gets the time and authority to get things done here we sorely need a helping hand.
 

Ahmer Baig

Full Member
Joined
Jul 8, 2017
Messages
538
Redknapp saying we're like the 90s Liverpool team was depressingly accurate, plenty young, exciting players and no clue how to use them. Still early for Ralf, hope he can find a way ASAP!