Ok so that kind of proves my point. A Mussolini era crash and another in the desert. It's hardly like people are claiming these things are dropping out of the skies, so not quite such an outlandish idea as the original poster I responded to was making out.
UAP - Unidentified Aerial Phenomenon
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And in those cases I think it's possible they may have seen some secret technology, in some cases. To entertain the notion that we're being visited by aliens I'm going to something a lot more convincing than that, when there's a much likelier explanation for those events. Particularly when it suits governments to have people speculating about aliens, since they're not going to come out and say "oh no, yeah, that was one of our new stealth bomber tests" (or drones, missiles, spy balloons, whatever).
There are cases that have seen crazy speeds, up to mach 30, backed up by radar, along with experiencing electromagnetic effects to their vehicle, stretching back to the 1940s. The argument has weight but it doesn’t add up when the same kind of accidents stretch back as far as then. We certainly didn’t have secret technology capable of such things back then, and it seems like we still don’t nearly 80 years later.
I don't believe there are any reliable reports of mach 30 or anything close to it.
Most of it is classified, pilots and radar operators have testified it exists and this is what this current situation is about, forcing the hand to get it public.
There was a case over Lake Michigan in 1994 where 300 people reported the sighting, and the national weather service caught it on radar doing Mach 10. The back and forth phone calls between the police and weather service is available to listen to.
I fell down the Bob Lazar rabbit hole before; he is interesting but I don't believe a word he says. Add to that, Jeremy Corbin, with whom he was being interviewed by Rogan, is also a grifter who claims to be a skeptic who explores everything objectively but he almost instantly jumps to aliens/UFOs at the earliest opportunity. He is not some earnest researcher looking to debunk things and only accepts aliens when no other explanation is warranted - he jumps to aliens whenever he sees dollar signs.
Bob on the other hand is far more interesting. I think he is a fraud, but he has persisted in his lies for so long that his story is fascinating, regardless of whether he is telling the truth. There is a long post on imgur/reddit I am trying to find that outlines some of the evidence against Bob. Just a note - a lot of the info against Bob comes from the late, great Stanton Friedman, who was everything Bob and Jeremy claim to be - a real nuclear physicist who applied a critical eye to the study of UFOs not simply to debunk but to bring legitimacy to the study of UFOs. Anyway, the evidence against Bob includes that there is no record he ever attended MIT or Cal Tech, that he was never clear on when he graduated from either place, and that he couldn't name one professor or fellow student at either university (when asked by Friedman to name any professor/instructor Bob had at MIT or Cal Tech, the only professor he did name when asked was a professor at Pierce Community College, the only school in which there is a record that Bob attended). Bob claims that the government wiped his academic records but also cannot point one piece of real evidence - a diploma, a term paper, an exam, an eyewitness, a picture of himself on campus, a textbook - that would show he attended either MIT or Cal Tech. In fact, the records that exist show that Bob was attending Pierce Community on the West Coast of the US in California at the same time he claimed to attend MIT on the East Coast in Boston. Bob has never explained how he was capable of attending both institutions at the same time or why an MIT student would ever need to attend a community college. Stanton Friedman also found his high school records and claims that Bob was a middling to subpar student who would not have been offered acceptance into either MIT or Cal Tech.
Bob also claims that the ship's fuel was Element 115, now known as Moscovium, which his proponents will tell you wasn't synthesized until after Bob came forward with his story - thus, Bob knew the element existed before everyone. Bob knew about Element 115 before it was named or even on the periodic table. That's crazy, right? Well, its bullshit - I don't remember exactly the terms, but chemists have known about the potential existence of things like Element 115 for hundreds of years, they just couldn't synthesize it and thus it wasn't named. I believe on periodic tables during Bob's time there were even blank spaces left on many periodic tables in anticipation of things like Moscovium, element 115, being artificially created.
Bob also claims to have never made a cent off of his stories when there is plenty of evidence that he profited, including a book, speaking tours, selling his story to multiple movie studios, selling hand drawn pictures through social media and even designing toys made to look like the craft he claimed to have worked on. The guy is the archetype grifter claiming to never sell a thing when he was probably making money off his story from day 1.
He also claimed to have worked as a physicist at Los Alamos before working at Area 51, but the records show he was instead a contracted technician working a job that directly linked to the degree he obtained from Pierce Community College. After working at Los Alamos he himself even admits that he went and started another business, a 1 hour photo development store. And finally, while supposedly working at Area 51, he also owned and operated a brothel and was in severe financial hardship.
So, for their super secretive program that only a handful of people EVER witnessed (I think Bob claimed only about 20 people worked on the program), by Bob's own story, the US government hired an individual who had not been working in any related scientific field for half a decade, didn't have a PhD, and didn't have any published papers. In the best case scenario, Bob has to explain why the US government hired him instead of any of the millions of better qualified candidates out there. He doesn't explain any of this, and simply admits he wasn't necessarily qualified but claims that he was kind of an outside the box thinker. In the worst case scenario, which I believe, Bob has to explain why the US government would ever hire a community college graduate with extreme, extreme security risks (owns brothel, in dire financial situation - basically giving super secret information to a guy who is more likely than anyone to sell that info to the press).
Bob is interesting to me because his lying is at pathological level at this point, but also because it shows how a guy with a basic understanding of physics and a keen interest in science fiction can convince people he is some sort of super genius who worked on the most top secret program ever. I admit that when you hear him speak about the craft, how it flew, I cannot debunk it, in part, because I am so scientifically illiterate. I think what Bob shows is how so many, including myself, can barely understand scientific concepts beyond a rudimentary level and when someone speaks to complicated subjects with an air of authority people have trouble separating the fact from the fiction. That being said, I think people are better at detecting other lapses in logic in another person's story that doesn't involve technical language and relatively foreign concepts and Bob's story has enough of those if you look closely enough.
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Maybe they get distracted by couples banging in the front seat of their cars?
Perhaps they never figured out how to land their space ships. Gong ho missions.
The ones coming here might also be the Stockton Rushes of aliens...
(Not that I'm buying any of it. If they're smart enough to come here they'd be smart enough not to make landfall in the most powerful, best armed and least tolerant society towards them on earth).
(Not that I'm buying any of it. If they're smart enough to come here they'd be smart enough not to make landfall in the most powerful, best armed and least tolerant society towards them on earth).
Assuming the technological capabilities they suggest is accurate, it would be reasonable to assume that whatever they are would be monitoring the most powerful, most advanced and best armed society on the planet. A "what threat level are they at" kinda thing. That is porbably what we would do in a similar situation, after all.
I dunno what to make of all this. A congressional hearing where it is alleged that the US has alien/non-human spacecraft and bodies, that there has been a reverse engineering project going on for 90 years, that overpriced services related to other SAPs has been used to fund it, and that the intelligence committee has recieved an extensive list of people who work directly on that program to call in for closed door hearings...
It is wild. A former intelligence official literally told Congress under oath that the US government has alien bodies, and space crafts, the location of which he supposedly has given to the intelligence committee, and he has the names of people working directly on that program right now who would testify if their NDAs were waived. A sitting member of the committee, formerly on the defense comitttee and comitte for advanced technologies openly said he had seen images and radar of technologies he could not link to any capability the US or any other country has. Then they told us that congressmembers with top clearance and oversight authority over US-SAP projects were denied access to information , data, locations and personell - which they specified is competely unheard of for them.
To top it all of Republicans and Democrats completed a hearing with virtually no grand-standing or political jabs.
It all just seems utterly insane, but it seems like congress is taking it very seriously.
The technology needed to get to Earth from another star system would put them so far ahead of us that to them there would be no functional difference between the US and Uganda. If an alien race that advanced really wanted to observe they wouldn't need to fly to the US to do it either. They could do it with undetectable spy satellites/drones from far away.
I'm not watching or following this so I can't say anything about the other people testifying, but Grusch has zero credibility. Anyone who puts any faith at all in what he claims is bound to be disappointed at the end of all this.
Fair point. I have always found it very strange that any alien race with that capability would supposedly just "hang around".
As for Grusch, I know nothing of him, nor do I know anything about the veracity of his claims. Why do you consider him uncredible?
There is some weird stuff going on in the US Congress, there are hearings on aliens, and Democrats and Republicans are working together. It certainly seems that some of them believe this - which in itself is kind of wild.
The animals at the zoo would/could think the same about us if their intelligence were capable enough. Why are these creatures always watching us but keeping a distance? We’re just walking around in the mud doing nothing. If we created a network across the Milky Way to study exoplanets using AI drones, we’d do exactly the same thing. It would be in our best interest to leave them alone and naturally evolve, it’s a lot more interesting that way and a lot more valuable from an educational perspective.
How do you know it's not the same technology?
Humans have crashed plenty of objects and devices into other planets,
You're making a lot of assumptions here.
Here's a video if you're very interested, but obviously I'm not expecting anyone to watch a 40 minute video just because.
Basically, his claims range from the quite mundane (as far as ufo stuff goes) to the clearly fictional, displaying no ability to separate the two. He also doesn't claim he's actually seen anything, he's always saying he's talked to people who say this and that.
Also a great point.
Anyone who thinks Grusch is uncredible hasnt got a clue what they are taking about. Just look at his record and where he's worked.
Personally i dont think he should have ever come forward as everything is stuff he was told by others he interviewed in his job. Unless he was actually working on one of those projects then why put yourself and your loved ones through the ringer like this?
Its a good analogy, we could be the equivalent of zoo animals to an much more advanced species who simply ignore us unless we kick up a fuss ala animals in a zoo and the zoo keepers.
They are taking it seriously from a national security perspective. If they arent American aircraft and not another superpower's then whos are they? Wondering into restricted airspace, ovwr restricted nuclear missile bases with impunity and no one can seem to do anything about it.
Centralising the military and commerical reporting will give them a better estimate of the problem.
Do i think they (congress) will get the answers they want? Nope.
Simply not true, as they are sightings the world over. Granted there will be prozaic explanations for 99% of them.
Thats discounting more exotic theoritical ways of travel that a type 2 or type 3 civilsation would have figured out i.e. warping spacetime or some other clever shit. There are between 100billion and 400billion stars in our milky way alone. Using the drake equation with its lowest inpts for the formula would still yield 50,000 civilisations in the milky way. Thats a tiny number considering the number of starts.
One of the biggest galaxies innthe known universe IIOC 1 has 100 trillion stars in it. God knows what the numbers would be if you ran the drake equation for that galaxy.
The universe and our galaxy is probaly teeming with sentient life. Its just that we arent very interesting. We havent been back to our moon for 50 years and never set foot on mars. Why would anyone bother with this backwater planet?
His claims are patently absurd. Individually some of them don't seem so bad for an ufo believer, but put them together and it's obvious he's not credible. Here are some of his claims:
- the US has several crashed/landed spaceships (with alien bodies in them), that the US is reverse-engineering and giving the technology to industry
- the aliens might be inter-dimensional beings
- the US government captured live aliens
- Russia and China are also in on this
- Aliens have murdered humans (and some of them are evil)
- the aliens have spaceships that are bigger on the inside than the outside (he didn't say this, but his lawyer did)
- the Vatican helped the US transfer a spaceship from Italy to the US during WW2
- the US government has an agreement with the aliens (but not the president, who doesn't get to know any of this)
So there's a massive conspiracy that would shake the world to its core... and yet the authorities are apparently perfectly fine with a former intelligence official revealing what must surely be top secret information. They reviewed his claims (as they do) , and basically said "this is fine, none of this is classified".
Aliens probably aren't visiting to observe us. They'll be more interested in the almost infinite supply of funny cat videos online.
The Drake equation and the Kardashev scale are certainly very fun thought experiments, but they are pure conjecture. You're talking about them as if they're something real, something tangible. They're more science fiction than science.
Edit: the Kardashev scale is at least more sciency than the Drake equation, I should add. There's something there.
None of this is new stuff (your list), its done the round for decades. Again i said he shouldnt have come forward unless he actually worked on stuff himself. However where we worked and the access he had, gives him credibility.
The point is that all 3 witnesses would have been vetted to the nth degree. No senator who sat on that sub comittiee would have done so knowing that Grusch wasnt credible. Obviously theres alot we joe public wont be or cant be told. However he was willing to share names of projects, individuals and companies partaking in this to them behind closed doors. Whether it leads somewhere remains to be seen.
Yep. The Drake equation is a great way to start thinking about the relevant factors, but it’s no more than that, and Drake himself never pretended it was.
You use the models and equations you have available at the time to try to make sense of the universe. Yeh they will be replaced by something better over time as the data improves on planetary formation, other solar systems, star formation etc, but its a start. It gets the ball rolling and promotes thoughts and conversations.
Okay, I see where you're coming from. I disagree, and I think you're holding senators to way too high a standard that doesn't match reality, but I get it.
Im open to see where it goes. I dont think it will go anywhere. Simply because even if 1% of what he said was true and the US are in possession of materials or biologicals, the dollar value of that stuff is beyond comprehension. The technological advantage you could get as a nation would be unheard of. Hence i dont think anything will come out of this ie. Hard tangible evidence or materials.
Hm, interesting. I haven’t looked any further into him, but yeah I guess if those holes in his story are real then he really is a great liar. He seems so believable and comes across as very intelligent and someone who wouldn’t make all that up, but again too many holes in his story to believe him even though I really want to.
It’s entirely reasonable to doubt Grusch’s credibility though. Not necessarily to call him a liar, but at this stage I’d say he’s more likely a fantasist looking for fame and attention than anything else. Not because I necessarily believe he’s a fantasist, but because what he’s claiming is so fantastical. One of two unlikely scenarios must be true. Either (a) there are alien spacecraft who have visited earth, and no one but him feels able to talk about it, or (b) he has invented ‘facts’. Given what we know about human nature, and how difficult it would theoretically be to keep an extraordinary secret like this for decades, I know which side of the fence I’m on.
So according to him humans are killing humans to keep this a secret, But somehow he was allowed in congress to talk about it in front of the world ?
Ok.
Ok.
He testified under oath so therefore if he was lying they can send him to jail for perjury. The whole thing was stage managed to get the "questions" onto the public record. They probably asked him these exact questions behind closed doors before the hearing.
Thats why the newsweek interview with him was alledegly rushed out early. Because they want him in the public eye therefore less chance of him "disappearing" apparently.
(Ps. Im not trying to defend him on here, i just find the whole thing interesting and weird).
My theory. This is a ploy to scare the sht out of the commoners so they can start spending billions on a space force. With the true intent being for the elites can get the fk off this planet before its totally fkd. Heck I even expect some fake high tech to be wheeled out at some point. But it won't really go anywhere like an advancement of technology or actual contact with aliens. It will be all theory, hearsay and fear mongering.
There was another gathering discussing UAPs from the pentagon top brass a few weeks ago. Was incredible listening.
Got me onto YouTube vids of the round rock sightings. A few of them videos are pretty interesting.
Got me onto YouTube vids of the round rock sightings. A few of them videos are pretty interesting.
It's gonna be a monkey corpse (non human biologicals) which the chinese blasted into space, and they're just reverse engineering the Chinese craft.
The real question for me is, "Men in Black", was that a movie or was it really a documentary 
There is one glaring error in discrediting him. This isn't a rando off the steet. This is an official who worked on an official USG program and uncovered evidence of misappropriation of funds and attempts to subvert congress' oversight authority. Those claims, and the evidence provided for that is apparently good enough that he has been given the protected status. He has been going entirely by the book.
The DoD has no reason to deny him the right to speak about misappropriation of funds or attempts to subvert oversight authority, even if aliens are involved. Details that could compromise national security however is a different matter (trade craft, names, titles, recent events, ranks, SAP contractors and locations). That someone is operating a secret SAP illegally, outside the purview of congress and the president, can not be considered classified information.
He could of course be lying his ass off, but to do that under oath, and promising to provide concrete locations, names, witness lists and other information in a closed setting - is extraordinarily risky. Someone in Congress will get clearance for the SCIF, obviously, and at that point you're looking at jailtime.
Could be the latterThe real question for me is, "Men in Black", was that a movie or was it really a documentary