UK General Election - 12th December 2019 | Con 365, Lab 203, LD 11, SNP 48, Other 23 - Tory Majority of 80

[Fiskey]

Hey, I’m not arguing with that, but if you think 10 years of Tory austerity has helped.. well...

And blaiming Blair? Wasn’t it just a 3-5 years boom of Poles coming in after they entered into the EU?

Poles work too man, pay taxes, use little NHS and pay for our old.

I love Poles, I'm dating one. I think we understand what each other think now.

 

[Redlambs]

Aye I feel the same way. Actually feel sick this morning. Tory got 63.0% in my area. It's Brexit all over again for me, I don't feel any connection with people who vote Tory, none.

Around 63% where I am too. Utterly ridiculous, but not surprising.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Another interesting read @DFreshKing and @Fiskey

https://infacts.org/eu-citizens-arent-scrounging-on-the-nhs/

SO rather than “putting a strain” on our NhS, they are helping prop it up.

 

[Siorac]

Maybe you should read the whole post before commenting...

Those other 3 countries kept themselves out of the fighting and had virtually no rebuilding to do afterwards.

And how is that relevant now, over seven effing decades later, to the effectiveness of different levels of taxation?

Seriously, your argument is that "you need to look abroad to see the effects of higher taxes, except you can't look at countries where higher taxes actually work pretty well".

 

[Olly Gunnar Solskjær]

 

[BluesJr]

So... where are all these Tory voters??

Everywhere I look all I see is Labour - both in real life and online.

I think it's a fix / scripted. Have done for years - tin foil brigade on this one.

Head down to your nearest supermarket. Look around. It’s all of them.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

And how is that relevant now, over seven effing decades later, to the effectiveness of different levels of taxation?

Seriously, your argument is that "you need to look abroad to see the effects of higher taxes, except you can't look at countries where higher taxes actually work pretty well".

And he conveniently ignored the Finns.

 

[sebsheep]

There's enough international evidence, you don't have to focus purely on UK. I'm not saying growth has to be 4% all the time, I'm very in favour of Keynesian economics. GDP growth is an imperfect metric for deciphering whether an economy is doing well for its population or not.

You look overseas, to similar countries. It's a favourite example of socialists but you cant use Scandinavia because we dont have a massive oil fund paying for everything, and we did have a costly rebuild after WW2. We also don't have the rabid patriotism that would keep many Americans captive if they ever raised taxes.

Countries with exorbitantly high tax rates always struggle, and will do so even more as it gets easier to move around the world.

Ah come on let's not be so vague, pop a few countries out there.

I do agree that gdp growth isn't the perfect way on measuring how well the country is doing for it's people, but I also didn't put the growth argument out there.

 

[Josep Dowling]

Public services are already crumbling and its the poor who rely most on them. There is no economic benefit to Brexit so things aren't about to improve. When push comes to shove at the end of next year and we're facing no deal, BoJo & Co will have "the mandate" to take this country out without one. The poor working class gave it to them. And they will suffer for it will those who funded Brexit in the first place will make billions. I really hope that happens not for some self sadistic vindication purposes, but its because that's what they deserve.

Well clearly for many leaving the EU was a more important reason to vote for Tories than any other issue. I’d argue public services have been crumbling for years, not just under a Tory government. Labour did nothing about the situation before them as well. Fact is there is too many people in this country (I am not blaming immigration) for services to function properly, and mismanagement of government spending in the wrong places means nothing changes. I don’t get care who’s in power that doesn’t change those two issues.

 

[Siorac]

And he conveniently ignored the Finns.

Or the Netherlands, which has higher income tax rate and corporate tax rate than the UK. And had to be rebuilt after World War II.

Or do you know another country where the top corporate tax rate is higher than in the United Kingdom? Germany! I recall they had some involvement in that war, too.

 

[EwanI Ted]

Let me try and understand your argument. Is it that having nearly 2 million people come to a country in 20 years has no affect on housing or healthcare provision?

Edit: Actually the figure will be more than 2 million.

Yes because they put more money into the economy then they take out. It’s the governments fault if they spend that money badly.

 

[DFreshKing]

Another interesting read @DFreshKing and @Fiskey

https://infacts.org/eu-citizens-arent-scrounging-on-the-nhs/

SO rather than “putting a strain” on our NhS, they are helping prop it up.

Not sure quoting an anti brexit organisation is going to be all that reliable but even so there is a massive lead time difference between investment required to build new schools, hospitals, roads to support millions of new people and the tax receipts they will generate. It means higher borrowing, higher interest payments which in turn leaves less money in the future for social costs and more debt for the population. Also all these working immigrants are still going to be welcome - in fact more because the whole world is a labour market not just the EU. The immigration that is going to be stopped (reduced) is people coming with no jobs, no skill-set to fill vacancies in the jobs market.

 

[11101]

Hmmm @11101, explain Finland to me if you want to cherry pick.

They had paid their debts off by 1952 and were able to prosper unhindered. They effectively surrendered to the Russians before too much damage was done and they were 'lucky' that the country they sided with and would have owed the most to lost the war.

And how is that relevant now, over seven effing decades later, to the effectiveness of different levels of taxation?

Seriously, your argument is that "you need to look abroad to see the effects of higher taxes, except you can't look at countries where higher taxes actually work pretty well".

Are you aware of how compounding works? If you were, you wouldn't need to ask that question.

Nations that emerged relatively unscathed from the war had far more freedom to set themselves up for the future.

 

[sebsheep]

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The thing is, I don't think the wider population really wanted the divide to be healed. Labour lost a lot of seats because voters went to leave parties and didn't really gain any who wanted remain.
To me the line Labour took made the most sense, but I don't think it interested people. I don't think they would've won even if they'd back leave either, but it would've been closer.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Yes because they put more money into the economy then they take out. It’s the governments fault if they spend that money badly.

Yup!

European citizens make a net contribution of £2,300 more than the average UK resident. Their total net contribution was £4.7 billion in 2016/2017.

How can anyone read above and claim migration since 00 has negatively affected the NhS?

The mass of EU people who have moved to the UK since then pay tax and barely use the fecking NHS.

 

[utdalltheway]

It saddens me what this country has resorted to. Its absolutely crushing and the Brexit idiots will lap it up. They feel they are vindicated but have no idea the world of pain that they've inflicted on themselves. I really hope that they suffer greatly from this decision, worse than with Maggie. I hope they lose their jobs, their homes and are forced to live on the streets fighting everyday to survive just like some of those who they have let down with their vote last night.

I was so dismayed that I asked my wife this morning if we should move to LA instead. Trump's America suddenly seems more appealing because at least his term is limited to the next 5 years should he win again. With boundary and constitution changes bulldozed through this country will never ever be able to elect a Labour government again. Last night I feel was the final chance to change things and I now fear what this hard right-wing politics will do for the future of my children.

Swap places with Amy Schumer.
You could both be happy.

 

[bpet15]

It saddens me what this country has resorted to. Its absolutely crushing and the Brexit idiots will lap it up. They feel they are vindicated but have no idea the world of pain that they've inflicted on themselves. I really hope that they suffer greatly from this decision, worse than with Maggie. I hope they lose their jobs, their homes and are forced to live on the streets fighting everyday to survive just like some of those who they have let down with their vote last night.

I was so dismayed that I asked my wife this morning if we should move to LA instead. Trump's America suddenly seems more appealing because at least his term is limited to the next 5 years should he win again. With boundary and constitution changes bulldozed through this country will never ever be able to elect a Labour government again. Last night I feel was the final chance to change things and I now fear what this hard right-wing politics will do for the future of my children.

Jesus. Calm down.

 

[Fiskey]

Yes because they put more money into the economy then they take out. It’s the governments fault if they spend that money badly.

That's fine, but there is an effect. These people need houses, their kids need schools, they need health care.

These things aren't an on demand service, expanding capacity is a 5-10 year project. The planning and investment was never made, by Labour seemingly through absentmindness and the Conservatives through claiming they would reduce immigration while failing to do so and also failing to build new houses.

 

[11101]

Ah come on let's not be so vague, pop a few countries out there.

I do agree that gdp growth isn't the perfect way on measuring how well the country is doing for it's people, but I also didn't put the growth argument out there.

Well a big one is France. That is the best and most recent example of a high tax rate massively backfiring.

Nobody is saying taxes cant ever be increased from where they are now but the numbers some talk about would cripple us.

 

[Lay]

So... where are all these Tory voters??

Everywhere I look all I see is Labour - both in real life and online.

I think it's a fix / scripted. Have done for years - tin foil brigade on this one.

It isn’t a fix, the same happened for Brexit, Trump etc social media including the cafe aren’t the popular opinion. My social media was all labour, vote labour, tories bastards etc yet at work, the people who rarely make statements online were voting Tory.

 

[The Brown Bull]

It’s a good analysis but let’s also keep it real too; most people just aren’t very intelligent and are single issue voters. Largely against their own self interests. Boris, like Trump, has tapped into the psyche of the legions of dummies

Pretty much nails it. Unfortunately Hugh swathes of people can't be bothered to Educate themselves. Listening to various vox pops on radio I heard some truly incredible reasons given by people for voting Tory.

 

[11101]

It saddens me what this country has resorted to. Its absolutely crushing and the Brexit idiots will lap it up. They feel they are vindicated but have no idea the world of pain that they've inflicted on themselves. I really hope that they suffer greatly from this decision, worse than with Maggie. I hope they lose their jobs, their homes and are forced to live on the streets fighting everyday to survive just like some of those who they have let down with their vote last night.

I was so dismayed that I asked my wife this morning if we should move to LA instead. Trump's America suddenly seems more appealing because at least his term is limited to the next 5 years should he win again. With boundary and constitution changes bulldozed through this country will never ever be able to elect a Labour government again. Last night I feel was the final chance to change things and I now fear what this hard right-wing politics will do for the future of my children.

I think you need to log off for a while mate.

 

[Massive Spanner]

Not all disabilities are visible.

Exactly. Look at Boris.

 

[Boycott]

The thing is, I don't think the wider population really wanted the divide to be healed. Labour lost a lot of seats because voters went to leave parties and didn't really gain any who wanted remain.
To me the line Labour took made the most sense, but I don't think it interested people. I don't think they would've won even if they'd back leave either, but it would've been closer.

Labour should have asked themselves how best to replicate the result of 2017 first and foremost and the most important way to do that was to consolidate the leave seats in the north. To get a social agenda fulfilled you have to win an election and to win this election or get in hung parliament territory you have to admit brexit is the deciding issue. They may have pissed off remainers in London but at least those seats would have gone LibDem in such a case still stopping the tories.

I think if Corbyn matched Johnson on committing to leaving the eu then such damage wouldn't have been done. Look at the Labour holds in leave seats up north. They held them but the swing from 2017 was still ominous.

 

[Acole9]

Oh no look out everyone Burgon on the BBC.

 

[TheGame]

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[Siorac]

They had paid their debts off by 1952 and were able to prosper unhindered. They effectively surrendered to the Russians before too much damage was done and they were 'lucky' that the country they sided with and would have owed the most to lost the war.



Are you aware of how compounding works? If you were, you wouldn't need to ask that question.

Nations that emerged relatively unscathed from the war had far more freedom to set themselves up for the future.

So you're saying that even now, seventy-four years later, the UK is suffering the effects of World War 2 and therefore cannot afford to raise taxes?

Because compounding or not, that is utterly ridiculous. Lots and lots of countries managed to rebuild after World War 2 and have high taxes. Your point simply doesn't stand up to even the slightest bit of scrutiny.

fecking hell, even the likes of Poland and Hungary have recovered well enough from World War II by this point - and these countries had no Marshall Plan but had 40 years of Soviet rule instead! The idea that rebuilding after World War 2 still hinders the UK economically... it's bonkers.

 

[EwanI Ted]

That's fine, but there is an effect. These people need houses, their kids need schools, they need health care.

These things aren't an on demand service, expanding capacity is a 5-10 year project. The planning and investment was never made, by Labour seemingly through absentmindness and the Conservatives through claiming they would reduce immigration while failing to do so and also failing to build new houses.

Sure, but blaming immigration is like saying “I don’t want your money I’m too incompetent to spend it”

 

[esmufc07]

Oh no look out everyone Burgon on the BBC.

He is beyond dreadful.

 

[P-Ro]

“Next year both the Durham Miners’ Gala and the Notting Hill Carnival will take place in seats held by the Conservatives.”
Michael Gove

 

[Pexbo]

Emily Matlis grilling Burgon here and she’s absolutely right. It was a massacre last night and nobody is admitting they got it wrong and nobody is admitting responsibility.

Do these people really think that we’re going to have respect for then and back them going forward if they can’t recognise or admit they were wrong?

 

[Siorac]

Yup!

European citizens make a net contribution of £2,300 more than the average UK resident. Their total net contribution was £4.7 billion in 2016/2017.

How can anyone read above and claim migration since 00 has negatively affected the NhS?

The mass of EU people who have moved to the UK since then pay tax and barely use the fecking NHS.

Which makes perfect sense, if you have an ounce of common sense. If you ever visited a hospital (a hospital for adults, not a children's hospital) in your life then you will have noticed that the average age there is far higher than that of the general population. Old people have worse health - which really is the most obvious thing in the world.

Now, most immigrants, anywhere ever, are not old people. The majority are healthy young people, again, obviously. It's not Polish pensioners that flooded the UK.

 

[Fiskey]

Sure, but blaming immigration is like saying “I don’t want your money I’m too incompetent to spend it”

Haha, how can you interpret that? Wow, the immigration debate gets very ideological.

I think immigration is a great thing, my mother is from Trinidad and was herself an immigrant. However you need two things, 1. The infrastructure to cope with the planned level of immigration and 2. The democratic consent of the population.

The Labour government in particular just didn't engage with either issue, and that has lead to significant problems in our society.

 

[Acole9]

He is beyond dreadful.

He's getting destroyed right now, you can see the reflection of the other guests and they're pissing themselves.

 

[Redlambs]

Emily Matlis grilling Burgon here and she’s absolutely right. It was a massacre last night and nobody is admitting they got it wrong and nobody is admitting responsibility.

Do these people really think that we’re going to have respect for then and back them going forward if they can’t recognise or admit they were wrong?

And Corbyn is still in his job...

 

[Ubik]

"We got more votes than when we won an election" is so Burgon it's painful.

 

[esmufc07]

Emily Matlis grilling Burgon here and she’s absolutely right. It was a massacre last night and nobody is admitting they got it wrong and nobody is admitting responsibility.

Do these people really think that we’re going to have respect for then and back them going forward if they can’t recognise or admit they were wrong?

Bla bla Thatcherite bla bla.

Not just Corbyn who needs to go, pretty much the entire Shadow Cabinet needs binning off.

 

[Fiskey]

Which makes perfect sense, if you have an ounce of common sense. If you ever visited a hospital (a hospital for adults, not a children's hospital) in your life then you will have noticed that the average age there is far higher than that of the general population. Old people have worse health - which really is the most obvious thing in the world.

Now, most immigrants, anywhere ever, are not old people. The majority are healthy young people, again, obviously. It's not Polish pensioners that flooded the UK.

The Polish are only one group of immigrants. Immigration from countries outside of the EU increased significantly under Blair and a lot of these people over time brought their families, including elderly parents, with them.

 

[Pexbo]

And Corbyn is still in his job...

Yeah he obviously needs to go.To be fair to him it doesn’t sound like he’s trying to lead Labour any more, he just doesn’t want to quit and leave a vacuum. Probably because as leader he hopes to have a bit more of a say in the selection process

 

[esmufc07]

Yeah he obviously needs to go.To be fair to him it doesn’t sound like he’s trying to lead Labour any more, he just doesn’t want to quit and leave a vacuum. Probably because as leader he hopes to have a bit more of a say in the selection process

This is what worries me.

 

[Boycott]

Yeah he obviously needs to go.To be fair to him it doesn’t sound like he’s trying to lead Labour any more, he just doesn’t want to quit and leave a vacuum. Probably because as leader he hopes to have a bit more of a say in the selection process

If Ed Miliband did that in 2015 we might not have got Corbyn.