I’ve moved to yet another Labour safe seat (******* Harman’s in fact), so I’m again fairly limited in what I can do. Tempted to vote green as an environmental protest.
UK General Election - 12th December 2019 | Con 365, Lab 203, LD 11, SNP 48, Other 23 - Tory Majority of 80
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This is 100% going to be a Brexit election.
You don't understand why a confirmatory referendum is needed?
Who voted ‘other’?
This is a genuine possibility. Tories will lose a lot of seats down south and I don't think Farage will allow them make up the difference up north.
I’d have thought it would be. The whole point is that we can’t move one way or another on Brexit and this election was called as a way out. In 2017 Article 50 was triggered and with both main parties advocating Leave, and the Remain campaign having no traction, it felt very much settled. Now it’s up in the air again and either outcome is plausible. That'll feel true for people who want to leave or remain and I think that’ll be the first thing most people think about, albeit not the only thing, when they vote.
In some eyes, a loss is indeed a win. Not mine though.
Yep, I can't see it being any other way. Which puts Corbyn and Labour in a difficult position if they aren't strong enough to force as much of the narrative away from that as possible.
So Labour can change their stance as events unfold but the Lib Dem’s can’t?You don't understand why a confirmatory referendum is needed?
They said 2017 would be about Brexit. Corbyn managed to change the narrative to domestic issues and overturned the poll ratings. However, Robot May did manage to hand it to him on a plate. Also I think a lot of the Tory big guns (mostly men) hung her out to dry. When Corbyn started on his money-tree promises to students etc. the Tory hard hitters should have been rolled out to kick massive holes in that. They didn't appear and I wondered why. Maybe it was May's stubbornness. I don't know. In any case her failure to respond to the Labour narrative lost her the majority. Plus there were two terrorist attacks during the campaign that didn't play well on the police and security fronts.
Corbyn has no Brexit cards so like last time he's going to try to keep it on a domestic agenda. This time round though I think it will be more difficult to move the focus away from Brexit. That said, Johnson will need to have answers on the domestic front as well as pushing the Brexit issue.
If the country views this as a 2nd referendum then I think Corbyn is going to struggle. Plus the Labour party's whole tone has moved markedly towards the Hatton/McClusky end of things. Good for the rank and file but it has never really chimed with the majority of the electorate.
Corbyn has no Brexit cards so like last time he's going to try to keep it on a domestic agenda. This time round though I think it will be more difficult to move the focus away from Brexit. That said, Johnson will need to have answers on the domestic front as well as pushing the Brexit issue.
If the country views this as a 2nd referendum then I think Corbyn is going to struggle. Plus the Labour party's whole tone has moved markedly towards the Hatton/McClusky end of things. Good for the rank and file but it has never really chimed with the majority of the electorate.
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We could do with an undecided option in the poll because I'm sure there are many like me who haven't made up their mind yet.
Holding his cards I imagine. He's knows that Boris is going to be banking on TBP acting as the Tory wingman, looking to do calculated damage to Labour seats in Leave areas so I have no doubt he's been very busy on WhatsApp chatting with Cummings, writing the Tory manifesto.
Probably someone voting for sdlp/uup in the north.
I know it's not a popular opinion, but I think the lib dems get a hard deal over the coalition. The context at the time was global recession, the country going bust and trillions of pounds being pumped into the banks in an attempt to keep our economy viable on it's feet, whether that should have happened or not is a separate discussion.
David Laws said they would have preferred to go in to coalition with Labour, it was a much more natural fit, but the talks with Brown weren't taken seriously by Labour at all and together they still wouldn't have had the numbers to get a majority in the commons. The country desperately needed stable government, a minority government at that point would have been a disaster.
Yes their voting record in coalition was not perfect and yes they were forced to u turn on tuition fees, but they did good as well. Raising the income tax threshold, pupil premium, investment in green energy, the banking levy, even gay marriage was the result of massive pressure from the Lib Dems, despite Cameron's support, the majority of the Tory party and cabinet were dead against. The Tory government unleashed without them since 2015 has been disastrous.
Like I've stated I'm not a Lib Dem supporter, but the way so many people write them off as power grabbing whores is an easy argument in my opinion and ignores, the good they tried to do and the good they achieved.
I'm confused, so you do understand the logic of a confirmation referendum but you're just trying to deflect from the Lib Dems stupidity?
Bit of a difference between saying we'll do Brexit and then ask you if you're sure when we have the details to "We demand a referendum but we won't enact your result". Or would Lib Dems have enacted the results when Swinson said it in that video?
Pretty clear that both parties changed their policies in the face of unfolding events.
Because leave is not a binary option. There are many different ways to "leave".
I’m neither selfish nor greedy but that is not to say I don’t look at how things affect or impact on my family and how we live.
I think it is, I’ve never voted Lib Dem in my life and don’t like their leader or their pledge to revoke A50 but I’m finding that preferable to the position of Labour or Tories.
Why so obtuse?
The Lib Dems campaigned for a referendum now their policy is to null the result.
Labours policy is for a confirmatory referendum because the outcome needs clarification.
Very different.
I think anyone who isn't swivel eyed kipper needs to vote strategically. If the conservatives get a majority we're sunk. Ideally we need a centre left coalition government, which will ensure a safe approach to brexit, a re-focusing on the social issues crippling society at the moment and a boost to the environment and industry by launching the Green economy. A thin labour majority would simply mean the labour party at war between itself whilst in power; whereas a coalition with the SNP/Libdems (who are more likely to prop up the tories) would help reign in the radical left in Momentum.
People need to remember - non elected party members don't have a say over parliament, no matter how much they shout. If that were the case we'd have done no deal ages ago.
I'm just afraid that in most seats, if you vote Lib Dem, you're likely to get a Conservative.
People need to remember - non elected party members don't have a say over parliament, no matter how much they shout. If that were the case we'd have done no deal ages ago.
I'm just afraid that in most seats, if you vote Lib Dem, you're likely to get a Conservative.
Agree with all of this apart from the bolded
Not to mention welfare cuts, the bedroom tax etc. Homelessness, food banks and poverty rocketing. Massive cuts to council budgets (close to 50% cut in Manchester for example). The income tax personal allowance was minor and welfare cuts meant that it didn't benefit those who needed it most.
It was not an altruistic act by the Lib Dems to get into that coalition. It is revisionism at its finest to suggest otherwise.
I tend to agree. Strategic voting against the Tories is the way to go.
Despite my strong criticisms of the lib dems the Tories are worse and need to be out of government.
You can disagree with it but it's true. One of them said as much on Sky New this morning. They said they wouldn't form coalition with Corbyn and when asked Boris they said their preference isn't to do so. That's as outright as most politicians get.
They'll form a coalition with the Tories in a trade off for a second referendum. Some may be happy with that but people should be aware of what they're voting for.
"I'm not going to support Boris Johnson or Jeremy Corbyn. They are not up to the job." - Jo Swinson speaking to the BBC, that's pretty outright.
Labour need to go very hard on domestic policy... try as much as they can to steer debate away from Brexit. I would even go down the route of "the media and the Tories want this election just to be about Brexit... they want you to ignore the NHS, public services, workers rights, poverty etc".
3 votes for UKIP already. The Caf never ceases to amaze me
I think that is what they'll be doing but don't think it'll be enough with pretty much every other party making it all about Brexit plus the majority of the media doing the same.
Is frustrating that in all likelihood, the voting will be mostly on a single issue when there's so much more to the country.
It's probably some posters not even able to vote in the election trolling.
I assume he means the Lib Dems and not the SNP who would never support the Tories under any circumstances I can conceive of.
You believe that isn't just electioneering?
That's not what she said in her leadership campaign or what her other MPs are implying. She's as trust worthy as Boris if not less.
You really think they won't support the Tories for a second ref?
Who voted DUP?
Yeah possibly that's the case
Should have a poll estimating how many seats each party will get.
I don't like Jo Swinson and don't trust her, but the Lib Dems know how badly they were burnt last time they went into a Tory coalition, they're finally making a come back with the electorate they won't make the same mistake again, but they won't go into coalition with Labour either. At a grassroots level though I imagine there will be quite a lot of strategic 'keep the Tories out' going on between the two parties though
EDIT: I also think the the Tories would never offer a second ref, their support wouldn't stand for it
My hope is... and I am only talking personally here... is that talking about the other issues may resonate more with voters. I can't speak for everyone obviously, but I think a lot of people feel Brexit fatigue at the moment. I'm almost tired of hearing about it and when I do... I basically switch off. It's been dragging on and has just become tiresome. My hope is that the electorate might be more interested in the other stuff than people think... but time will tell.
If there's a hung Parliament and the Lib Dems are king makers (they may not be) then they will work with someone. It may not be a formal coalition but they will work with someone. They can't say that now, of course, for the reasons that you cite.
I really hope in the aftermath of a general election you're right and this rhetoric from the lib dem leader has been all about winning votes, rather than anything else.
I hope so too but there is now a culture war going that has coalesced around the stage managed depiction of Brexit as a binary issue.
I think the SNP are just as likely to be kingmakers and they probably would work with Labour. But I can imagine the Lib Dems after the election working with Labour in the same way the DUP did with the Tories. Swinson has to say she won't go with Labour at the moment as there's quite a few million Tory remainers out there and they wouldn't touch the Lib Dems if they thought they were electing JC with their vote.
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