UK General Election - 12th December 2019 | Con 365, Lab 203, LD 11, SNP 48, Other 23 - Tory Majority of 80

How do you intend to vote in the 2019 General Election if eligible?

  • Brexit Party

    Votes: 30 4.3%

  • Conservatives

    Votes: 73 10.6%

  • DUP

    Votes: 5 0.7%

  • Green

    Votes: 23 3.3%

  • Labour

    Votes: 355 51.4%

  • Liberal Democrats

    Votes: 58 8.4%

  • Plaid Cymru

    Votes: 3 0.4%

  • Sinn Fein

    Votes: 9 1.3%

  • SNP

    Votes: 19 2.8%

  • UKIP

    Votes: 6 0.9%

  • Independent

    Votes: 1 0.1%

  • Other (BNP, Change UK, UUP and anyone else that I have forgotten)

    Votes: 10 1.4%

  • Not voting

    Votes: 57 8.3%

  • Undecided

    Votes: 41 5.9%
  • Total voters
    690
  • Poll closed .
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Mr Pigeon

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Grinner said:
You're being very whiny. If you think you've been insulted then report it. Each report is looked at and judged individually, usually by a couple of mods. We are stricter in the CE forum than the General.
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He's just being your typical lefty snowflake.
 

Smores

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Fluctuation0161 said:
https://fullfact.org/economy/public-debt/

In 10 years under the Tories national debt has nearly doubled from £1 trillion to £1.8 trillion.

Remember the DUP money from Theresa May? The magic money tree suddenly appeared then didn't it.
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No point slinging facts around he doesn't care. As always with Tories on here they have an opinion and will work backwards from there never engaging in any actual debate on the merits of any argument.

I don't know what they expect when they repeat Daily Express level content. If you still believe the Tories are economically competent and that Boris is fit to serve as PM and we can't do better than worsening public services then fine but don't cry offence when people make a judgement on your opinions.
 

finneh

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Cheesy said:
How are these policies bribes? Or, to put it differently, how's it any different to any policies proposed by any political party which aim to woo voters and thus win elections? In 1945 when Labour won and created a welfare state that became the cornerstone of the nation were they bribing voters then? There's this weird belief that for some reason young people voting in their own self-interest involves them being bribed, whereas older voters who go Tory for a decent pension are incredibly rational and logical beings. I'm struggling to see the difference here? At least Labour are trying to devise policies to improve things in areas where there have demonstrably been problems. Criticise the financial math and all the rest of it - but bribes is such an inane way to look at it.
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Maybe it's the ability to be elected and therefore enact said policies. So the Monster Raving Looney Party promising to mark all 3+ inch puddles with a rubber duck... Or Corbyn promising free tuition fees are bribes. Johnson promising to jizz billions all over every public service worker within a 50 mile radius is merely a stupid policy initiative.
 

T00lsh3d

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Jippy said:
Bit harsh they published her Tinder details. Brexit party candidate a bit of a deal breaker.
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Look, having been on the tinder scene in Hull....in fact my current 18-month relationship began on tinder....let’s just say hypothetically if I matched with Michelle, I’d give it a go. Forgive and forget I reckon
 

Sweet Square

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This is well worth a read and sums up all the tory voters on here


The Problem With Old People

https://averypublicsociologist.blogspot.com/2019/11/the-problem-with-old-people.html

It was a modest sized bungalow. A fresh extension had been added to the side of the house and the occupant, a woman in her late 60s to early 70s, beckoned us across the astroturf lawn to her patio doors. "I'll be voting Tory this time", she said. "We need to get Brexit done." Picking at her reasoning, it was the bickering of politicians that annoyed her the most. And when we moved on to policy issues her eyes glazed over and spoke the following remarkable words: "the country has never been so prosperous." At that point we decided time was best spent on someone else's doorstep and we moved off. This brief chat typified two things: it underlined Labour's old people problem and speaks to the single political success of the Cameron government's time in power - the insulation of retirees from the pressures facing the rest of the population.

Naturally, we're not talking about all older people. But poll after poll, election after election, and country after country shows a pronounced bias among the old to right wing parties. And this is especially acute when we talk about hard right populist insurgencies, like the Brexit Party here, the AfD in Germany, FN in France and so on. Why? Is this simply an expression of the old adage that you tend to get more conservative as you grow older? No.

As this blog has discussed many times, the age split in voting intentions across the Western world is an expression of a class cohort effect. The fact the younger you are, the more socially liberal you're more likely to be is less a consequence of "multicultural lefty crap", as the thankfully former Tory MP Aidan Burley once put it, but a cultural mutation in the class composition of the advanced capitalist societies. Without going too far down this particular rabbit hole (much more here and here), it will suffice to say that as the state expanded in the post-war years millions of workers were drawn into employment whose object was the reproduction of capitalist social relations themselves. Education, health, social services, the civil service generally, local government were the main areas of growth. The character of this work centred on the engineering of human beings, the combination of socialising them and patching them up. As deindustrialisation started taking hold and neoliberal capitalismemerged from the rubble of the class battles of the 1980s, not only were these services contracted out, the market also started intervening more directly in the engineering of subjectivities. Consumer capitalism was already well practised at selling lifestyles, but as the service sector expanded and industry upped sticks the provision of services became increasingly central to the accumulation of capital. What mattered less was the brute physicality of the human body and more the subtle intricacies of our competencies as social beings, but not just any way of being: the kind of agreeable personality able to get on with and relate to people from a diversity of backgrounds. There are two consequences that flow from this. Social liberalism is less a matter of "propaganda" as the far right maintains, but a tolerance arising spontaneously from the everyday existence of tens of millions of people. And secondly, the younger someone is the more likely their career is or will be characterised by the immaterial, social labour. Therefore it stands to reason younger people are going to relate better to parties that embody those values, while the reverse is true of those coming to the end of their working lives or are retired. This is something the so-called Blue Labour tendency recognises, but thinks we should tail the prejudices and fading peccadilloes of the old and abandoning social liberalism for, at best, a studied neutrality with respect to their propensity to conservatism. A position that would destroy the Labour Party in less than a generation.

The second issue is the problem of property. Value congruence is only one part of the explanation for the polarisation of politics along age lines. The apparent conservatising effect of age is not some essentialist feature of the life course, but a consequence of acquiring property. It used to go something like this. You start off in life after school with a job. And as you get older, you and your partner acquire a house, cars, kids, has a modest sum saved in the bank for a rainy day, and by retirement you're set with a liveable pension combining occupational and state schemes, and a few assets acquired over a life time of graft. If you're under 50, you know this fiction is not the case. One of the biggest problems the Tories are facing is how property acquisition is eroding, which is one of the processes driving the party's long-term decline. The Tories are visibly and obviously a barrier to the modest aspirations of increasing numbers of working people. And one of the reasons they cannot address this is because high property prices and the proliferation of renting is very much in the interests of their coalition of older voters. For among the ranks of retirees are a not inconsiderable number of petty landlords who rent out their old family homes or other properties. Therefore keeping them sweet and onside means screwing younger workers, even if the price the party will pay is their decreasing political viability in the medium to long-term. And it also means this constituency are not about to support Labour who are pledged, perversely, to getting the cycle of property acquisition moving again alongside curbs on private renting and the building of good quality council housing.

Not unrelated to property is the declassing experience of retirement itself, which is simultaneously individuating, disempowering, and lumpenising. Going from arranging your life around the need to earn a wage a salary to not can be wrenching, and leaves the retired to find purpose in other things. For some it might be the near full-time pursuit of hobbies, but often the consequences can be social withdrawal and isolation. No wonder old age loneliness is at epidemic levels. Whatever the case the freedom from work, or at least working full-time, affords a certain freedom and the inclination to do as one pleases. In a society such as ours where the individual is formally sovereign, independent, and therefore the arbiter of what is right and what is wrong, retirement approaches this neoliberal ego ideal. This declassing is something David Cameron understood at an instinctive level. "Protecting" older people from his government's cuts programme wasn't a charitable move but an astute political one. Dave knew that ensuring pensions rose while exempting older people in public housing from the bedroom tax, cuts to council tax and changes to income support insulated them (to a degree) from his attack on government spending, and therefore the pressures borne from the rest of the population. Further, because pensioners are on fixed incomes and atomised, they - like small business people - are prone to social anxieties. The reason the right wing press pump out the most ludicrous scare stories and are happy to abet the Tories in doing so is because it speaks to a structurally anxious social location, and they lap it up. Hence also the tendency to the punitive and the scapegoat. The right are past masters in condensing intangible fears around groups of undesirables, and and satisfying them by being seen to give them a good kicking and making their lives a misery. The hostile environment, for example, is part and parcel of this formula. Labour, especially under Jeremy Corbyn, is also a bogeyman that fits this political typing to a tee. The spending plans conjure up the mythologised Winter of Discontent, the foreign policy an Operation Sea Lion rerun with Jihadists and bolshevised Brussels bureaucrats, and any hint of making life better for working people a concession to snowflakery and idleness.

This situation, of the old effectively turning against the young, is not natural. It is a situation arrived at by policy decisions, and cynically sustained by the Tories and the powerful forcesthey act for. The question is how to turn this around? And the answer is ... not before election day. Strong campaigning by Labour and using all means, such as getting younger relatives to lean on the old, can make a small difference. As could targeted anti-Tory campaigning aimed at suppressing their vote. But we're talking about sustained effort over years in government. To turn the situation around for the old takes more than just banging on about saving the NHS, they have to see tangible improvements when they visit. The restoration of public transport (particularly buses) and a rebooted Post Office network can be parts of a strategy to break down isolation and dislocation. Opening FE and HE to lifelong education can encourage retirees to enter education, sometimes for the first time, would also build social cohesion and make the world appear less threatening and strange. And Labour's plan to break up private media monopolies would stymie the pipeline of poison that keeps pensioners frightened, weary, and anxious.

Again, it's worth reiterating that this can't be short circuited. Labour's old people problem does not go away if we pander to the concerns articulated by the right wing press, nor allow the Tories to set the terms of debate, nor water down while half-apologising for our programme. The only way to win over the old and disrupt the grip the Tories have on pensioners is by explicitly saying we are the party for everyone, and with the policies to match. And they know, the right know that if we get in and start removing the bases of pensioner anxiety, their long-term decline will speed up.
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Mr Pigeon

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So it turns out that the reason for Boris halting the Arcuri investigation is because it was getting too hot to handle... It'll be interesting to see what traction this gains.

An investigation into the prime minister’s relationship with the US businesswoman Jennifer Arcuri will also review an affair that Boris Johnson failed to declare when he was mayor of London, the Guardian can reveal.
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https://www.theguardian.com/politic...stigation-to-review-affair-with-another-woman

Which then leads you to this article from 2013.

Public has right to know Boris Johnson fathered child during affair, court rules

Senior judges dismiss Helen Macintyre's attempt to hide paternity of child born after brief affair with mayor of London

The public has a right to know that Boris Johnson had an extramarital affair with a woman who later gave birth to their daughter, the appeal court has ruled.
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https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/may/21/boris-johnson-fathered-child-affair

Seems like a lovely and trustworthy bloke...
 

Kentonio

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Smores said:
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Someone should ask Leadsom about how tolerant and open her Prime Minister's comments about 'piccaninnies with watermelon smiles' and 'tank-topped bumboys' are.

Someone should also ask the Tory voting public why the gullible cnuts think an Eton schoolboy called Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson is going to look out for their interests.
 

NWRed

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From the BBC: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/election-2019-50457201

Could just be titled Labour and the Lib Dems are idiots.

9:17
Labour's domestic message 'not getting through' to Leave voters



Today Programme

BBC Radio 4

Polling expert Sir John Curtice says Labour has made "a bit of ground at the expense of the Liberal Democrats" among Remain voters so far during the campaign.

But he adds that trying to persuade voters on the Leave side of the argument to support Labour on the basis of its domestic agenda is "not having any cut-through at all".

"Labour's share of the vote amongst Leave voters - a grand total of 14% - is exactly the same now as it was a week ago.

"Equally for the Liberal Democrats, another absolutely clear message, that a lot of them think they can forge ahead by taking away Remain voters from the Conservatives - well, I have to say the polls suggest that so far again their strategy is not doing much good."

Sir John said there was a "binary choice" when it comes to Brexit at the election - and at the moment the polls were "quite firmly pointing" towards a Conservative majority.
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Smores

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NWRed said:
From the BBC: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/election-2019-50457201

Could just be titled Labour and the Lib Dems are idiots.
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That's one take, another would be that those remainers won't leave the Tories no matter what (and they've been given good reason) and that Labour leavers value Brexit over any domestic policy. Politicians can only do so much if the country is so inclined.

Custice said in an interview the other day that a 6% lead in the polls would be enough to deny a majority. That's achievable with tactical voting and I'm not sure tactical voting would be covered in recent polling. There's a slither of hope yet.
 

Kaos

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Holding out here for an unprecedented “shy labour” voting phenomenon. Ie folks who actually like Labour’s policy offerings but don’t want to admit to supporting Corbyn.

*sigh* someone please leak the investigation report into the Russians bankrolling the Tories already.
 

Mr Pigeon

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Abizzz said:
Thought it's a better speech by his standards. He's getting laughs from a crowd that must hate him. I was hoping he'd get heckled :lol:
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He's back on track but those first ten minutes were woeful. Brexit, Brexit, evil Corbyn, Brexit, Get Brexit Done. Yawn.
 

Abizzz

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Mr Pigeon said:
He's back on track but those first ten minutes were woeful. Brexit, Brexit, evil Corbyn, Brexit, Get Brexit Done. Yawn.
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Yeah the first couple of mins were the worst. Person asking him to stop gets the first round of applause though :D
 

finneh

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One of the biggest problems the Tories are facing is how property acquisition is eroding, which is one of the processes driving the party's long-term decline.
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Click on the link and:
The main thrust of John's argument is based on the declining votes of the Tories since their peak in 1931. Prior to then, between 1859 and 1931 the party was in a long term ascendency, and assumed a dominant position from 1886. Of course there were peaks and troughs in both periods, but vote proportions plotted in a graph demonstrate a rise and fall tendency. More specifically, between 1931 and 1983 John observes that with the single exception of 1955, the Tories won elections with a decreasing portion of the overall vote compared to their previous outing. For instance, Ted Heath's Tories won in 1970 with 46.4%, and Thatcher in 1979 and 1983 with 43.9% and 42.4%. How did this trend stand up after the book was published? 1987 saw 42.2%, and 1992 41.9%. Leaving out the trough years of opposition, the Tories returned to government in the 2010 hung parliament with 36.1%, but won a majority in 2015 with 36.9%, and lost its majority on the basis of 42.4% in 2017. Therefore the pattern John identified was broken between 2010 and 2015. Indeed, writing in 2013 John forecast the Tories would get 30.3% at the following election, a prediction that unfortunately turned out not to be the case.
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So evidence of the Tory parties long-term decline is arbitrarily picking a date (1931) whereby there was a huge spike in Tory support; ignoring several elections in between where support increased from a more moderate level; using selective election dates whereby vote % did fall whilst ignoring elections where it increased; using that as a basis to predict the Tories would win 30.3% of the votes in 2015; dismissing the fact that this was completely wrong and they then won 36.9% in that election as unfortunate and then pointing out they lost their majority when attaining 42.4% in 2017.

The below was clearly a strange omission from an article arguing trends in vote share:
 

Mr Pigeon

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Corbyn out guns blazing and killing it so far.

Took the piss out of Johnson to a decent laugh and making clear that he supports businesses, going into detail about how Labour's policies will help the issues that the CBI have demanded each year at their conferences, showing that he's listened to their concerns.

It's a comparison between a ranting moron who didn't know where he was and someone who's done their homework...

Watch him feck it up...
 

Smores

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finneh said:
Click on the link and:


So evidence of the Tory parties long-term decline is arbitrarily picking a date (1931) whereby there was a huge spike in Tory support; ignoring several elections in between where support increased from a more moderate level; using selective election dates whereby vote % did fall whilst ignoring elections where it increased; using that as a basis to predict the Tories would win 30.3% of the votes in 2015; dismissing the fact that this was completely wrong and they then won 36.9% in that election as unfortunate and then pointing out they lost their majority when attaining 42.4% in 2017.

The below was clearly a strange omission from an article arguing trends in vote share:
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I believe you're one of the handful of Tories who have previously posted about cutting corporate tax being a good thing and it not costing the treasury?

I assume then that you must be pissed at the Tory decision to reverse further planned cuts and disagree with their costings that this decision will save the Treasury money?

After all higher corporate tax will cause businesses to flee and not make any extra money.
 

Sassy Colin

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Mr Pigeon said:
Corbyn out guns blazing and killing it so far.

Took the piss out of Johnson to a decent laugh and making clear that he supports businesses, going into detail about how Labour's policies will help the issues that the CBI have demanded each year at their conferences, showing that he's listened to their concerns.

It's a comparison between a ranting moron who didn't know where he was and someone who's done their homework...

Watch him feck it up...
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Corbyn is only any good at campaigning, he loves the adoration of his followers and feeds off it.

He has gone from this incompetent, unelectable, idiot to the great statesmen again.

Aren't you guys worried that he'll just revert to type if he gets in?
 

Mr Pigeon

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Sassy Colin said:
Corbyn is only any good at campaigning, he loves the adoration of his followers and feeds off it.

He has gone from this incompetent, unelectable, idiot to the great statesmen again.

Aren't you guys worried that he'll just revert to type if he gets in?
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Nah.
 

fishfingers15

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Sassy Colin said:
Corbyn is only any good at campaigning, he loves the adoration of his followers and feeds off it.

He has gone from this incompetent, unelectable, idiot to the great statesmen again.

Aren't you guys worried that he'll just revert to type if he gets in?
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If he wins, he can Trump style rallies throughout his tenure
 

Honest John

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Fluctuation0161 said:
I think the younger generation see the entrenched imbalances in society more acutely because they're not as desensitised to it. Stepping over homeless people with your shopping bags certainly is not normal. Although from the tone of your posts I suspect you give them a kick.
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Or that they go to left wing, echo chamber schools that most are these days.
 

Smores

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Honest John said:
https://www.theguardian.com/teacher...her-school-echo-chamber-leftwing-views-labour
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So one teachers opinion about one school is enough for your generalised comment?

I can't even see the reasoning in that article. It says they're neutral in lessons but the main gripe seems to be doing presentations with counter arguments on feminism and living wage but not right wing issues? Are feminism and living wage only lefty ideals now? And if so what would right wing presentations be?
 

Fluctuation0161

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Honest John said:
Or that they go to left wing, echo chamber schools that most are these days.
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I don't think your opinion piece example with a sample size of 1 teacher in 1 school is enough to convince me of that.

How do you feel about the predominantly right wing echo chamber of UK media coverage?
 

Sassy Colin

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Honest John said:
Or that they go to left wing, echo chamber schools that most are these days.
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It's not worth it John, they aren't interested and nothing will change their minds.

I had a response ready for that drivel above that literally has zilch nothing whatsoever to do with any of the Conservative voters on here, but it's pointless.
 
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