UK General Election - 12th December 2019 | Con 365, Lab 203, LD 11, SNP 48, Other 23 - Tory Majority of 80

How do you intend to vote in the 2019 General Election if eligible?

  • Brexit Party

    Votes: 30 4.3%
  • Conservatives

    Votes: 73 10.6%
  • DUP

    Votes: 5 0.7%
  • Green

    Votes: 23 3.3%
  • Labour

    Votes: 355 51.4%
  • Liberal Democrats

    Votes: 58 8.4%
  • Plaid Cymru

    Votes: 3 0.4%
  • Sinn Fein

    Votes: 9 1.3%
  • SNP

    Votes: 19 2.8%
  • UKIP

    Votes: 6 0.9%
  • Independent

    Votes: 1 0.1%
  • Other (BNP, Change UK, UUP and anyone else that I have forgotten)

    Votes: 10 1.4%
  • Not voting

    Votes: 57 8.3%
  • Undecided

    Votes: 41 5.9%

  • Total voters
    690
  • Poll closed .
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Honest John

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Sweet Square

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Honest John

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:lol::lol:

If you really can't see the difference between this article and the one you posted then christ there's no helping you.
No I can't. Both are opinions based on the observations of the author.

And that is not my point. My point is that people on here try and give weight to their arguments by posting tweets and articles that chime with their beliefs and are often nothing more than opinion.
 

Ady87

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The Conservatives could have teachers on board and, indirectly, the ear of millions of young people. Thank the lord they've been too busy shafting them over the mid to long term to realise. I wouldn't be surprised if left leaning political bias slips through the net in schools when they're barely earning the average wage.
 

Honest John

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The Conservatives could have teachers on board and, indirectly, the ear of millions of young people. Thank the lord they've been too busy shafting them over the mid to long term to realise. I wouldn't be surprised if left leaning political bias slips through the net in schools when they're barely earning the average wage.
That may well be true.
 

finneh

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I believe you're one of the handful of Tories who have previously posted about cutting corporate tax being a good thing and it not costing the treasury?

I assume then that you must be pissed at the Tory decision to reverse further planned cuts and disagree with their costings that this decision will save the Treasury money?

After all higher corporate tax will cause businesses to flee and not make any extra money.
In truth I'm not really a Tory, certainly not a tax and spend Johnson Tory. I'm a proponent of low taxation (which Tories haven't been in decades) allowing for maximum civil liberties (which Tories have never been).

Likewise I'm not really pissed because the Tories haven't been a party of low taxation whilst I've been old enough to vote, hence me only voting Tory once in the past which was solely an anti-Corbyn vote (although I'm only 31). Quite the opposite in that they're taxing the populace at record non-recession peacetime levels.

In terms of not reducing corporation tax from a personal point of view I'm apathetic as I generally budget my corporation tax declaration based on annual performance and work backwards, so the % is often irrelevant (19/20 will be a record as a figure and as a % of turnover, despite it being the lowest governmental figure since I ran my business). Likewise even when I can't fully legally manipulate the figures the market price of products increases/decreases to reflect the tax rate so I merely follow suit and charge more/less.

Its strange though when we look to first world countries that are quickly growing in the current climate and disregard the fact that the ones performing best have low taxation and low spend as a % of GDP.

If I were running the UK as a business for example the first thing I'd do is look at Ireland and their great growth whilst maintaining low corporate taxes and extraordinary low spend to GDP and tax to GDP. Likewise Hong Kong pre-China involvement or Singapore. There seems to be a lack of understanding that a rising tide initiated by low taxes lifts all boats.
 

Volumiza

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The Conservatives could have teachers on board and, indirectly, the ear of millions of young people. Thank the lord they've been too busy shafting them over the mid to long term to realise. I wouldn't be surprised if left leaning political bias slips through the net in schools when they're barely earning the average wage.
This is quite true, I know 3 teachers and all are pro-Labour and very anti-Tory and I've definitely witnessed this bias over my kids primary school years.

I was at my daughters school play in July and the headmistress' speech at the end actually contained more than one anti-Tory jokes. One of the teachers for a haloween party dressed as Theresa May.

Thankfully their secondary school appear to be very A-Political and that is completely how it should be.
 
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Sweet Square

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No I can't. Both are opinions based on the observations of the author.
The article I posted is based on a material reading of the British economy and the effects this has on people voting patterns(This is back with data - click and read the hyperlinks). The secret teacher article is some guy complaining that his students think the tories are ''baddies''(Which by the way has nothing to do with how children are being taught in schools but in fact the reality young people face everyday under a tory government)but hey he did quote John Stewart Mill.

I'm always disappointed at just how lazy and simply conservative thinking really is. Do you honestly believe the reason young people are more to the left is because of their teachers ?
 
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Abizzz

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Boris didn't... But corbyn did just get the for the many not the Jew question
That wasn't a heckle and the person asking Johnson about Tory islamophobia got the exact same reaction.

THO the real question is what happened to BBC's standards?

Edit: Sorry I misread your post at first. I didn't actually watch that set of answers (had to mute after the questions) and might have missed him being heckled there. I thought you meant the question was a heckle. My bad.
 
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Honest John

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The article I posted is based on a material reading of the British economy and the effects this has on people voting patterns(This is back with data - click and read the hyperlinks). The secret teacher article is some guy complaining that his students think the tories are ''baddies''(Which by the way has nothing to do with how children are being taught in schools but in fact the reality young people face everyday under a tory government)but hey he did quote John Stewart Mill.

I'm always disappointed at just how lazy and simply conservative thinking really is. Do you honestly believe the reason young people are more to the left is because of their teachers ?
Not the only reason. They are also influenced by peers and, these day social media, which generally places compassion for the poor, equality and general do-gooding wholly in the realm of the left wing and on plane that no Tory could ever reach. For me the arguments have always been about economics and individual freedoms. But it has been dragged down to a straight fight on here between cnuts and non-cnuts.
 

ZupZup

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Very strange... Boris spouting that he is postponing the corporation tax cut because he wants to spend that tax revenue on the NHS instead?

But surely by lowering corporation tax again, they will just get even more tax revenue. That's what they've been insisting for years... and if Labour were to increase tax revenue, then we just get less money.
 

Cheesy

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That's one take, another would be that those remainers won't leave the Tories no matter what (and they've been given good reason) and that Labour leavers value Brexit over any domestic policy. Politicians can only do so much if the country is so inclined.

Custice said in an interview the other day that a 6% lead in the polls would be enough to deny a majority. That's achievable with tactical voting and I'm not sure tactical voting would be covered in recent polling. There's a slither of hope yet.
Previous polling recently suggested the exact opposite of this was true.
 

Cheesy

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Not the only reason. They are also influenced by peers and, these day social media, which generally places compassion for the poor, equality and general do-gooding wholly in the realm of the left wing and on plane that no Tory could ever reach. For me the arguments have always been about economics and individual freedoms. But it has been dragged down to a straight fight on here between cnuts and non-cnuts.
Youngsters are always more leftist but that's becoming more pronounced because the right is now offering them less and less than before. Under Thatcher they at least had a decent chance of owning property and thus obtaining capital if they succeeded in the economy; now that's ridiculously difficult compared to before. University is more expensive and jobs aren't as guaranteed or safe as they were before. Any actual reasons for young people to vote Tory aren't really there anymore.
 

Mr Pigeon

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Boris didn't... But corbyn did just get the for the many not the Jew question
Laura as always makes up her own story and makes it seem like he was struggling in his speech. He got a laugh within ten seconds by ribbing Boris, answered the anti-Semitism question well and didn't feck it up, directly answered every single point of all questions and got a better round of applause at the end that BoJo did.

She's grossly unprofessional and it's been very clear for a long time where she resides politically. It's also the reason why she's the Political Editor.
 

Sassy Colin

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In truth I'm not really a Tory, certainly not a tax and spend Johnson Tory. I'm a proponent of low taxation (which Tories haven't been in decades) allowing for maximum civil liberties (which Tories have never been).

Likewise I'm not really pissed because the Tories haven't been a party of low taxation whilst I've been old enough to vote, hence me only voting Tory once in the past which was solely an anti-Corbyn vote (although I'm only 31). Quite the opposite in that they're taxing the populace at record non-recession peacetime levels.

In terms of not reducing corporation tax from a personal point of view I'm apathetic as I generally budget my corporation tax declaration based on annual performance and work backwards, so the % is often irrelevant (19/20 will be a record as a figure and as a % of turnover, despite it being the lowest governmental figure since I ran my business). Likewise even when I can't fully legally manipulate the figures the market price of products increases/decreases to reflect the tax rate so I merely follow suit and charge more/less.

Its strange though when we look to first world countries that are quickly growing in the current climate and disregard the fact that the ones performing best have low taxation and low spend as a % of GDP.

If I were running the UK as a business for example the first thing I'd do is look at Ireland and their great growth whilst maintaining low corporate taxes and extraordinary low spend to GDP and tax to GDP. Likewise Hong Kong pre-China involvement or Singapore. There seems to be a lack of understanding that a rising tide initiated by low taxes lifts all boats.
Not the only reason. They are also influenced by peers and, these day social media, which generally places compassion for the poor, equality and general do-gooding wholly in the realm of the left wing and on plane that no Tory could ever reach. For me the arguments have always been about economics and individual freedoms. But it has been dragged down to a straight fight on here between cnuts and non-cnuts.
This is where I have always stood too, but the current lot are a long way from these ideals.

Apparently, this means that we all kick homeless people :confused:
 

Sassy Colin

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Youngsters are always more leftist but that's becoming more pronounced because the right is now offering them less and less than before. Under Thatcher they at least had a decent chance of owning property and thus obtaining capital if they succeeded in the economy; now that's ridiculously difficult compared to before. University is more expensive and jobs aren't as guaranteed or safe as they were before. Any actual reasons for young people to vote Tory aren't really there anymore.
A lot of this is a result of Blair's policies that everyone should go to University. You can't go from the top 5% going to University, when it was free and students received a grant from the Government, to 50% going to University without someone having to pay for it. It also devalues a degree, such that there are never going to be enough graduate level opportunities to go around.
 

Cheesy

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In truth I'm not really a Tory, certainly not a tax and spend Johnson Tory. I'm a proponent of low taxation (which Tories haven't been in decades) allowing for maximum civil liberties (which Tories have never been).

Likewise I'm not really pissed because the Tories haven't been a party of low taxation whilst I've been old enough to vote, hence me only voting Tory once in the past which was solely an anti-Corbyn vote (although I'm only 31). Quite the opposite in that they're taxing the populace at record non-recession peacetime levels.

In terms of not reducing corporation tax from a personal point of view I'm apathetic as I generally budget my corporation tax declaration based on annual performance and work backwards, so the % is often irrelevant (19/20 will be a record as a figure and as a % of turnover, despite it being the lowest governmental figure since I ran my business). Likewise even when I can't fully legally manipulate the figures the market price of products increases/decreases to reflect the tax rate so I merely follow suit and charge more/less.

Its strange though when we look to first world countries that are quickly growing in the current climate and disregard the fact that the ones performing best have low taxation and low spend as a % of GDP.

If I were running the UK as a business for example the first thing I'd do is look at Ireland and their great growth whilst maintaining low corporate taxes and extraordinary low spend to GDP and tax to GDP. Likewise Hong Kong pre-China involvement or Singapore. There seems to be a lack of understanding that a rising tide initiated by low taxes lifts all boats.
Hong Kong and Singapore are also renowned as bastions of inequality though. Simply having good economic performance doesn't mean you're properly taking care of your citizens.

City-states also don't work in the same way as larger and more diverse nations. In a country like the UK different people in different areas have varying demands and that has to be taken into account to an extent that just isn't the case somewhere that's tiny geographically.
 

Cheesy

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A lot of this is a result of Blair's policies that everyone should go to University. You can't go from the top 5% going to University, when it was free and students received a grant from the Government, to 50% going to University without someone having to pay for it. It also devalues a degree, such that there are never going to be enough graduate level opportunities to go around.
So your solution is that only rich, wealthy elites should go to uni?
 

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Youngsters are always more leftist but that's becoming more pronounced because the right is now offering them less and less than before. Under Thatcher they at least had a decent chance of owning property and thus obtaining capital if they succeeded in the economy; now that's ridiculously difficult compared to before. University is more expensive and jobs aren't as guaranteed or safe as they were before. Any actual reasons for young people to vote Tory aren't really there anymore.
I do agree that if the Tories don't fix the housing issues they will lose the economic argument.

Which in the past was the one that turned young labour voters into conservatives.

The whole point was to work hard and own a house.

Prices need to come down and that only happens if you have a sustained long-term build program at the entry end.
 

Sassy Colin

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So your solution is that only rich, wealthy elites should go to uni?
Where did you get rich from :confused:

If everyone who goes to University gets a means tested grant, which is how it used to work, then those form the poorest backgrounds get a full grant and those form richer backgrounds get a reduced grant. This is what Conservatism should be about, that anyone, from any background, has the opportunity to make the very best of themselves.

That's the exact opposite of what you said.

Edit: John gets it :)
 

Cheesy

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Where did you get rich from :confused:

If everyone who goes to University gets a means tested grant, which is how it used to work, then those form the poorest backgrounds get a full grant and those form richer backgrounds get a reduced grant. This is what Conservatism should be about, that anyone, from any background, has the opportunity to make the very best of themselves.

That's the exact opposite of what you said.

Edit: John gets it :)
But in reality if you're limiting how many people go to uni, it's still ultimately going to be the richest who can go because they can afford it.
 

RedSky

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Laura Kuenssberg is just a Tory mouthpiece and will bend everything in their favour. She's far from objective so not really sure why some people think it's acceptable to quote her. It's like quoting Fox News ffs.
 

villain

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I do agree that if the Tories don't fix the housing issues they will lose the economic argument.

Which in the past was the one that turned young labour voters into conservatives.

The whole point was to work hard and own a house.

Prices need to come down and that only happens if you have a sustained long-term build program at the entry end.
The Tories proposed to build 200,000 starter homes in 2015, at a cost of 2.3bn

The money is now gone, but the houses are not built
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...rs-national-audit-office-report-a9185371.html

They’ve already lost the economic argument, and lost it long ago too.
 

Cheesy

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That is utter drivel & you know it. My dad went to University and he could not possibly have come from a poorer background.
Are you arguing it wasn't formerly the case that university wasn't typically something attended disproportionately by well-off people in comparison to the working classes? Anecdotal evidence doesn't prove your point here.
 

hobbers

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But in reality if you're limiting how many people go to uni, it's still ultimately going to be the richest who can go because they can afford it.
Everyone could already afford it. And even moreso if the means tested maintenance grants are reinstated, as they should be. It's a shame so many politicians want to spread disinformation about student finance to put so many millions off of going. Martin Lewis has a lot of useful stuff to say about it.

Granted, if Corbyn ever got in, a degree would become about as valuable to your career prospects as a driving licence.
 

Kentonio

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That is utter drivel & you know it. My dad went to University and he could not possibly have come from a poorer background.
There's a reason why anecdotal evidence is worthless. If 5 in 1000 poor kids go to university and 500 in 1000 rich ones, no it doesn't mean that going to university as a poor kid is impossible, it just means its bloody hard and the poor kids have to work considerably harder than the rich ones do to get that same opportunity. That's what the left has the issue with.

And yes obviously I was pulling numbers out of my ass to make a point.
 

finneh

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Probably on account of it being total horseshit.
I'm sure the Irish people who're seeing record growth propel record investment throughout society would disagree.


Hong Kong and Singapore are also renowned as bastions of inequality though. Simply having good economic performance doesn't mean you're properly taking care of your citizens.

City-states also don't work in the same way as larger and more diverse nations. In a country like the UK different people in different areas have varying demands and that has to be taken into account to an extent that just isn't the case somewhere that's tiny geographically.
Income inequality in Singapore is improving year on year, as is wage inflation across all deciles. Likewise if you look at their education standards it's not hard to predict that this trend will inevitably continue. The same was the case in Hong Kong prior to Chinese involvement. Obviously though these are "newer" countries and so are improving from a lower base.

Ireland on the other hand is a more established economy and shows low taxes and low spend propelling fast growth, allowing both increased spending alongside a budget surplus; meaning more more is being spent on services rather than servicing debt. Likewise record unemployment and fantastic wage growth at over 3.5%. Malta has shown a similar pattern of a reduction in tax resulting in better GDP growth.

In truth though it's common sense. Imagine if local authorities set their own tax rates. What do you think would happen if Birmingham set a corporation and income tax rate much lower than anywhere else in the UK? You'd see businesses and people moving out of other cities and into Birmingham. This would result in Birmingham undergoing a large boom as we've seen with Ireland, with other "progressive" cities (as the UK) trying to tread water. Businesses and people are far more fluid now so a country like Ireland with under 23% tax to GDP will attract people and business, whereas a country like France 46% tax to GDP will repel businesses and people.

I'm curious what people think would happen to Birmingham if they and they alone reduced all taxes by a third?
 

Maticmaker

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"Socialism is for the young to aspire to and to dream about, Conservatism is for the elderly to confirm as being what real life is about and to wish they had learned more earlier"... anonymous
 

Sassy Colin

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Are you arguing it wasn't formerly the case that university wasn't typically something attended disproportionately by well-off people in comparison to the working classes? Anecdotal evidence doesn't prove your point here.
I would have thought that was more a function of those from poorer backgrounds not believing University was for them, rather than any lack of opportunity. If you had the application, anyone, from any background could go to University.
 

Honest John

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I would have thought that was more a function of those from poorer backgrounds not believing University was for them, rather than any lack of opportunity. If you had the application, anyone, from any background could go to University.
There is some truth here. I was socially conditioned to think that Uni was beyond my reach when I left school. Plus I had some pressure from my parents regarding having to pay my way and so I chose an apprenticeship. Ten years later later I returned to Uni as a mature student. I was means tested. My fees were paid and I received a mature student maintenance grant.

I also question the standards when there is such a push to get so many kids though university.
 

Smores

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I'm sure the Irish people who're seeing record growth propel record investment throughout society would disagree.




Income inequality in Singapore is improving year on year, as is wage inflation across all deciles. Likewise if you look at their education standards it's not hard to predict that this trend will inevitably continue. The same was the case in Hong Kong prior to Chinese involvement. Obviously though these are "newer" countries and so are improving from a lower base.

Ireland on the other hand is a more established economy and shows low taxes and low spend propelling fast growth, allowing both increased spending alongside a budget surplus; meaning more more is being spent on services rather than servicing debt. Likewise record unemployment and fantastic wage growth at over 3.5%. Malta has shown a similar pattern of a reduction in tax resulting in better GDP growth.

In truth though it's common sense. Imagine if local authorities set their own tax rates. What do you think would happen if Birmingham set a corporation and income tax rate much lower than anywhere else in the UK? You'd see businesses and people moving out of other cities and into Birmingham. This would result in Birmingham undergoing a large boom as we've seen with Ireland, with other "progressive" cities (as the UK) trying to tread water. Businesses and people are far more fluid now so a country like Ireland with under 23% tax to GDP will attract people and business, whereas a country like France 46% tax to GDP will repel businesses and people.

I'm curious what people think would happen to Birmingham if they and they alone reduced all taxes by a third?
That's not a benefit of low taxation it's a benefit of taxation disparity. It doesn't work if the overall trend is towards low taxation and it works much less for markets such as ourselves that already have pull through access and skills. It works even less for markets leaving a trading bloc.

We could become a low tax haven for business but we'd see far less boom than the others. The government despite saying the opposite seem to now agree as they're saying that reduced corporate tax would cost the economy 7bn a year by 2022. Which begs the question what reducing it nearly every year has cost us previously? Why is this the magical rate rather than reverting to say the rate in 2013?
 
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