Ian Rush was the best scorer in the League by an absolute mile, mind.
United...1990s Liverpool re-enacted?
- Thread starter PickledRed
- Start date
This thread aged well 
Well Manchester United paid a record fee of £1.5 Million for Bryan Robson back in 1981. To put that into some sort of perspective, it would be 6 years later before we'd break that record when we bought Peter Beardsley from Newcastle for £1.9 million. You also splashed a massive amount of money on Frank Stapleton (£900,000) from Arsenal, also in 1981. So lets not perpetuate this myth that our success in the 70's & 80's was predominantly down to money, because it wasn't. We were a well run club, both on, & off, the pitch. We had a scouting system that was second to none. The team that won the league & European Cup in 1977 had a world-class keeper in Ray Clemence who was signed from Scunthorpe. A world class forward in Kevin Keegan who was also signed from Scunthorpe. A right back in Phil Neal, signed from Northampton, who's one of the most decorated players in the game. A great winger called Steve Heighway who came from non-league Skelmersdale United, a mere 12 miles away from Anfield. Jimmy Case, also playing in non-league football for South Liverpool. Tommy Smith & Ian Callaghan, who both came through the youth system. In fact the most high profile signing we had on the pitch was Ray Kennedy, who was initially signed by Shankly, from Arsenal, on the day he packed it in (12th July 1974: My 17th birthday
). Kennedy was a forward for Arsenal, but Paisley, in all his great wisdom, converted him into a world-class left-sided midfielder.So in keeping with the theme of this thread, United, in the 70's & 80's, actually outspent Liverpool, whereas we, from the 90's onward, spent more money than Manchester United in trying to get ourselves back on that perch. Therefore, all things considered, I'd say the OP - up til now anyway - has made a pretty good call. I suppose though we probably need to re-visit this thread in 10 years time to see just how good a shout it was.
But again, you're talking about players. What about the need for a top class manager to get the best out of these players ? Wouldn't you say that's a priority more than anything else ? OGS might surprise everyone & blow the opposition out of the water with his managerial acumen. It might happen, but there's not many out there who'd put money on him overtaking the likes of Guardiola & Klopp. But it's not just that side of things that needs to be re-vamped, it's the whole structure - from top to bottom - at Old Trafford. To get it right won't happen overnight.
Before that, we paid £560,000 for Gordon McQueen in 1978, £385,000 for Joe Jordan in the same year, £800,000 for Ray Wilkins in 1979, then £1, 350,000 for Garry Birtles in 1981. Serious money for the times. Going back further, to the early 70s, we spend £200,000 plus each on Ian Storey-Moore, Ted MacDougall, and Lou Macari, only one of which proved to be value for money.
By the way, you missed players like Alec Lindsay from Bury, Terry McDermott, Brian Hall, David Fairclough, Larry Lloyd (well, maybe not), and Sammy Lee. Oh, and John Toshack. Did any of those cost over £100,000?
There are some similarities between United now and Liverpool post 1990, but I see a parallel with United circa 1970. First Busby retired and, for whatever reason, Jimmy Murphy, who was getting on a bit himself, didn't want the job. Wilf McGuinness came in, went, and Busby returned, only to retire again, this time for good. There was no plan for the succession. A man who had run the footballing side of things since the end of the war was gone leaving a vacuum that wasn't to be filled until 1986, despite the club hiring solid replacements (O'Farrell, Docherty, Sexton, and Atkinson). Despite spending a ton of money, not one of them could win the league title.
The surprising thing about Liverpool was the seeming lack of forward planning in 1990. As you say, they were a well-run club from top to bottom, with a conveyor belt of good players and managerial replacements, right up to Kenny Dalglish's time in charge. Why was Ronnie Moran never given the job full-time? He was only in his 50s when Dalglish retired and would have been the obvious replacement.
What you didn't show in your figures was that attendances right across the country also declined sharply. Probably because of the on-going problem with hooliganism, shitty grounds, shitty facilities, & supporters generally being treated like shit. You can see from the below charts just how much it started to impact the game, & not just Liverpool, from the early 80's onwards.
https://www.worldfootball.net/attendance/eng-premier-league-1970-1971/1/
I think we paid £110,000 for Toshack, & something similar for McDermott iirc. Only reason I can see why we didn't appoint Ronnie Moran is that he was probably just as belligerent as Graham Souness in his style of management. I think Evans was given the job because of his ability to work with the players at their level. I think he actually did more than a decent job. His team played some good football, & he certainly got the best out of the likes of Fowler & McManaman. I'm not sure he had it in him though to take on the strong characters in the dressing room. I often got the impression that the likes of Ruddock & co took the piss on a regular basis. Football was just something they did just before going out on the lash.........Spice Boys yuk.
Edit: Sorry, only just realised you meant why we didn't give Moran the job before Souness. Truth is I don't know. It could be that he turned the job down, or maybe it was because Souness had done such a good job at Rangers that he was ready for the step up.
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I said scouting as well, somewhere else. Some major players for not much like you said.Well Manchester United paid a record fee of £1.5 Million for Bryan Robson back in 1981. To put that into some sort of perspective, it would be 6 years later before we'd break that record when we bought Peter Beardsley from Newcastle for £1.9 million. You also splashed a massive amount of money on Frank Stapleton (£900,000) from Arsenal, also in 1981. So lets not perpetuate this myth that our success in the 70's & 80's was predominantly down to money, because it wasn't. We were a well run club, both on, & off, the pitch. We had a scouting system that was second to none. The team that won the league & European Cup in 1977 had a world-class keeper in Ray Clemence who was signed from Scunthorpe. A world class forward in Kevin Keegan who was also signed from Scunthorpe. A right back in Phil Neal, signed from Northampton, who's one of the most decorated players in the game. A great winger called Steve Heighway who came from non-league Skelmersdale United, a mere 12 miles away from Anfield. Jimmy Case, also playing in non-league football for South Liverpool. Tommy Smith & Ian Callaghan, who both came through the youth system. In fact the most high profile signing we had on the pitch was Ray Kennedy, who was initially signed by Shankly, from Arsenal, on the day he packed it in (12th July 1974: My 17th birthday
So in keeping with the theme of this thread, United, in the 70's & 80's, actually outspent Liverpool, whereas we, from the 90's onward, spent more money than Manchester United in trying to get ourselves back on that perch. Therefore, all things considered, I'd say the OP - up til now anyway - has made a pretty good call. I suppose though we probably need to re-visit this thread in 10 years time to see just how good a shout it was.
But there was also Lawrenson, Wark, Souness, Ray Kennedy, Paul Walsh, Hodgson, Michael Robinson, Alan Kennedy, Gary Gillespie, McMahon even - all well thought of at the clubs they were at & used to bulk out the LFC squad in a way that other teams didn't do at that time.
The Edwardses were being relatively as tight as arseholes (net spend) in the first half of the 1980s. Until SAF had his first splurge.
Craig Johnston, McDermott, Kenny for decent amount from Celtic. Mostly very shrewd but not produced out of thin air.
Does that mean a FA Cup + EL titles in 2021 and the 4th UCL in 2025?
You know it’s bad when that actually looks like a decent 12 year run. A guaranteed CL? I’ll take it.
Nope nothing happens overnight, trouble is some people are not willing to wait, as For Klopp and Pep, the both have been backed to the hilt, klopp has taken over 4 seasons to get a trophy so the board has been patient with him, as For pep he's just been given the cash to get who he needs.
Klopp more the same changed his thought process on transfers, and payed the money for what was needed, over £130 million on 2 players backed by the club.
Woodward is an issue at OT, that's a problem that needs to be addressed, but while UTD are still running a absolute massive profit no matter where they finish in league nothing upstairs to say will change, they will be the same, sack manager after manager.
And this is why I think ole will be thrown under the bus, hope not but it remains to be seen. It's like dejavue for me from 1976 to 1986? All over again?
Maybe so, but it went against the Liverpool way of doing things. Ronnie Moran was in the Liverpool boot room back when Bill Shankly was manager, and, given the system in place at Anfield - a system that had served the club so well - he was the logical successor to Dalglish. I don't blame Dalglish for resigning either. Hillsborough took a terrible toll on him. Hiring Souness was a break in continuity. Maybe you don't think it was that big of a deal but the culture of the club seemed to change at that point.
Moyes, Giggs, Van Gaal, Mourinho, and now Ole. Nobody seems to fit. Like Liverpool after Dalglish, the culture changed after Fergie retired and Gill slung his hook. It didn't need to. I recall back in about 2010 (I may be out on this), Gill spoke publicly about the plans the club had for the succession. Fergie's successor would be a man who had won titles and who had the requisite European experience. Dark warnings from history were acknowledged and we were assured that the same mistake would not be repeated. It was. Now here we are playing catch up again, with no discernible plan. Who is making the key decisions at United? Who is responsible for laying down the groundwork for how the club plans to progress in the next five years or so? It all seems very ad hoc to me.
when I was listing those LFC signings earlier - it was scarily close to what Utd did in the European arena during the 1990s.
Most pull, best scouting, shrewd investments rather than paying top dollar EVERY time
and now, so is all this, tbh
Woodward is a nightmare on the football side, if Rio is the answer that would be amazing
the signings never seem to fit the same pattern as other signings might
we need to get a grip of everything
and that apparently, even includes the salary structure, which I find just about the most incredible thing - basically a problem with overpaying some but not others & then wondering why that creates a problem,
Most pull, best scouting, shrewd investments rather than paying top dollar EVERY time
and now, so is all this, tbh
Woodward is a nightmare on the football side, if Rio is the answer that would be amazing
the signings never seem to fit the same pattern as other signings might
we need to get a grip of everything
and that apparently, even includes the salary structure, which I find just about the most incredible thing - basically a problem with overpaying some but not others & then wondering why that creates a problem,
Excellent post Pickle.
Back, circa Oct 2013, I recall having a drunken laugh with a Utd supporting friend about something similar when Moyes was in the Utd hot seat. Although different times & circumstances to when Liverpool began to lose their stranglehold, I theorised that there were correlations between the 2 clubs and their respective 20 odd years of dominance & subsequent decline (or possible decline in Utd's case). I suggested Liverpool's decline commenced with the 2 tragedies they had to contend with. First, the exile from Europe after Heysel, which was followed swiftly by the mother of all football tragedies at Hillsborough. Although totally different circumstances, and nowhere close to the human tragedy and loss, I suggested the arrival of the sugar daddies (Abramovich and Mansour) and the global economic crisis in '08 hit Utd & their dominance badly. All of a sudden, as the Glazers tightened their purse strings, Utd didn't have the pick of the top end players and subsequently lost out to transfers as Chelsea & City hoovered up the best talent and started to close the gap.
Similarly, as Liverpool lost out on the title in the last seconds to the up & coming threat of Arsenal in 88/89, Utd did so too in 11/12 to their up & coming 'noisy neighbours' City. Liverpool came back to win their last league title in 89/90 with Kenny's last masterstroke, Rosenthal. Likewise, with Utd in 12/13, Fergie produced his final ace up his sleeve, RVP, to secure Utd's last league title to match Liverpool's major title haul of 23 titles (18 titles & 5 EC's v Utd's 20 & 3). Then, like Souness replacing Kenny, Moyes replaced Fergie, and the two Scots changed everything dramatically. Suddenly, the continuity and invincibility wasn't there anymore, and smaller teams started to smell blood, especially at home were both clubs had built penetrable fortresses.
Lazy comparison? Most definitely. But when I read your post Pickle, it brought back memories of that drunken laugh with my Utd supporting mate.
Funnily enough, we had a similar debate on whatsapp around the time Mourinho got the job. I suggested, as many others did, that the timing of Mourinho was all wrong and it could end badly. He was having none of it, due to the financial muscle Utd had and he was confident the club could buy their way out of their problems.
Maybe they still will, but as it stands, it looks like a massive job & long long way back....
Indeed, there’s always the danger of making lazy comparisons and shoe-horning in convenient points to emphasise your point. However, the last decade for United does chime with Liverpool in the 1990s.
Saying it’s not comparable is, in itself, lazy in my opinion.
Neville’s comments to Souness yesterday about his ill-fated stint as Liverpool manager in the early-90s brought this to mind.
The biggest comparison with United now to Liverpool then is the poor decision making off the pitch: recruitment, managerial shortcomings, obsession with past glories, sticking with a distorted notion of tradition, latching onto good results as a cause for genuine optimism, a belief that it will sort itself out sooner rather than later, etc.
The biggest comparison with United now to Liverpool then is the poor decision making off the pitch: recruitment, managerial shortcomings, obsession with past glories, sticking with a distorted notion of tradition, latching onto good results as a cause for genuine optimism, a belief that it will sort itself out sooner rather than later, etc.
We will look back on these bunch of losers exactly the same way we laugh at the Spice Boys
As Keane pointed out, “one title in 30 years.” That’s the reality. That’s how far they had fallen.
Sad to say that if we have truly gone that route, I might not live long enough to see United win another title.
Sad to say that if we have truly gone that route, I might not live long enough to see United win another title.
Brentford 4:0 Man Utd
Genuinely my finest work. Five years later v
I hope you get band
Those Liverpool teams are better than this united team. No matter our league position back then we gave everyone a game. We didn’t give up.
Nice of you to offer. Can I be on lead guitar and vocals if you play drums?
Always had goalscorers, always had players worth watching, always had Anfield
I do think there's recency bias here. We did finish 6th last year. Didn't Liverpool finish 8th in the 90s?
Liverpool finished 8th in Klopp’s first season (2015/2016).
I didn't see Liverpool in 90s but did they have games like this where they were a disaster? The closest I can think of is the 6-2 defeat to Stoke under Rodgers but that was recent.
But if you listen to the media, since Fergie left, Liverpool have dominated.
I mean they turned it around rather quickly, finished top 4 the next season, and made it to the CL final a year after that, they hired competent people around the club who started making good decisions instead of dreadful ones.But if you listen to the media, since Fergie left, Liverpool have dominated.
Scary vision PickledRed. But will it last 30 years like it did with us? Well with the oil money clubs coming in, and already here, why not? So far Utd:
Last won the league 2013 (10-ish years)
Last won the CL: 2008 (14 years)
What was happening in Corrie/EastEnders and what cars were I driving (one for the oldies)?
Our struggles during the 90s have been well publicised, but we at least had an owner who cared deeply about the club in David Moores. He wasn't a great owner by any stretch and was out of his depth once Abramovich entered the league and changed the role of club owner forever.
We signed some absolute dross in the 90s, Sean Dundee being the worst, but we always fought on the pitch. The brand of football we played was edge of your seat stuff at times and whilst the trophies were hard to come by, it certainly never felt like a chore watching us.
This is the biggest difference for me when you compare post 1990 Liverpool to post 2013 Man Utd. Our players still played for the shirt and even when we were not getting results, it was not very often you could say we weren't putting the effort in. That 3-3 draw against you at Anfield sums that period up perfectly for us. Miles behind you talent wise, but always willing to dig in and give anyone a game.
We signed some absolute dross in the 90s, Sean Dundee being the worst, but we always fought on the pitch. The brand of football we played was edge of your seat stuff at times and whilst the trophies were hard to come by, it certainly never felt like a chore watching us.
This is the biggest difference for me when you compare post 1990 Liverpool to post 2013 Man Utd. Our players still played for the shirt and even when we were not getting results, it was not very often you could say we weren't putting the effort in. That 3-3 draw against you at Anfield sums that period up perfectly for us. Miles behind you talent wise, but always willing to dig in and give anyone a game.
Liverpool were a mixture of exhilarating and drab in the 90s. Evans built a highly-accomplished attacking side similar to Keegan’s Newcastle but all too often they could be neutralised if you managed to reduce McManaman’s influence or turned it into attritional warfare. So many poor results against bottom half dross, especially away from home.
I went to The Riverside and saw Liverpool outfought in a raucous atmosphere, with Juninho running the show. Middlesbrough were relegated that season.
In short, too inconsistent to genuinely push for the league. Pockets of Solskjaer’s reign mirrors this but for a shorter period of time.
I went to The Riverside and saw Liverpool outfought in a raucous atmosphere, with Juninho running the show. Middlesbrough were relegated that season.
In short, too inconsistent to genuinely push for the league. Pockets of Solskjaer’s reign mirrors this but for a shorter period of time.
Liverpool never sunk to this level. Regardless of how shit they were they would still put in the effort and show a bit of pride. We haven't even got that to fall back on unfortunately
The Glazer's ownership adds a layer of hopelessness that I'm not sure Liverpool ever reached? That feeling of no matter what you did, it still wouldn't be enough because the people making the ultimate decision have no clue about running a footbal club. Maybe I'm wrong.
We’re honestly worse than Liverpool. Liverpool in the 90s didn’t have Glazer like owners stinking up the place
Said this was a risk when SAF retired and I've been proven correct. Brutal
What a revelation he was, when he showed up in the Premiership!
I didn't realise until I saw the BBC documentary following their title win a couple of years ago, that for a period Liverpool had 'joint' managers in Gerard Houllier and Roy Evans. It's no surprise that didn't work. I guess they didn't want to sack Evans when they made that move.
Middlesbrough had a weird arrangement one year when Bryan Robson kept his job as the manager, but they brought in Terry Venables as 'head coach' and it seemed that he was the one actually in charge. It kept them up in the Premier League after a bad start so it worked !
Post-Fergie Utd haven't had back to back seasons outside the top 4 yet so it hasn't all been doom and gloom. But with the Glazers, Ed Woodward's record etc., from the outside looking in it has seemed that they haven't had a clear strategy for most of that time at all. I hope that Utd do get their acts together and become challengers again sooner rather than later.
Middlesbrough had a weird arrangement one year when Bryan Robson kept his job as the manager, but they brought in Terry Venables as 'head coach' and it seemed that he was the one actually in charge. It kept them up in the Premier League after a bad start so it worked !
Post-Fergie Utd haven't had back to back seasons outside the top 4 yet so it hasn't all been doom and gloom. But with the Glazers, Ed Woodward's record etc., from the outside looking in it has seemed that they haven't had a clear strategy for most of that time at all. I hope that Utd do get their acts together and become challengers again sooner rather than later.
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We're a bloody case study
Were Liverpool this bad in the 90s? I remember them being hillariously bad under Woy - season 2010/11 they had 9 points after 9 games - 18th on the table at the end of October. Still ended the season in 6th place with Woy being sacked in January and Kenny taking over.