United's rebuild has not even started and won't start any time soon and here's why

AllezLesDiables

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Edwards wasn't in place, he was part of the famous transfer committee that was laughed at by many. He was promoted to DoF role after Klopp was appointed IIRC.
That appointment was a contingency of Klopp’s appointment. Klopp wanted to deal with a similar structure that he had in Dortmund.
 

roonster09

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That appointment was a contingency of Klopp’s appointment. Klopp wanted to deal with a similar structure that he had in Dortmund.
So Klopp's appointment has nothing to do with Edwards?

As a poster just mentioned Guardiola and Klopp would not have selected their current clubs without having Serriano and Bergestain and Edwards in place.
 

AllezLesDiables

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So Klopp's appointment has nothing to do with Edwards?

As a poster just mentioned Guardiola and Klopp would not have selected their current clubs without having Serriano and Bergestain and Edwards in place.
No, Edwards becoming DoF was tied into Klopp’s appointment
 

roonster09

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No, Edwards becoming DoF was tied into Klopp’s appointment
Any links? Odd thing to depend on when Edwards was never a DoF before. Klopp wanting DoF is a fair request but I don't see why he wanted only Edwards who was part of the committee which did poor job.
 

Borussin

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No, Edwards becoming DoF was tied into Klopp’s appointment
But Edwards did not get that promotion until 1 year after Kloppo joined Liverpool. Before then he was working alongside Ian Ayre I think his name was, but he was leaving, so Edwards got promoted, which was something Klopp was very happy to have happen, as he'd at that point worked with him for 1 year and trusted him.

Before then, he didn't know him, so it wasn't tied into his appointment.

I am sure Klopp was given assurances how transfers would work though. The difference with Klopp and Rodgers is that Klopp is 100% used to working with a sporting director. Rodgers was not, and didn't want to, which is why Liverpool ended up with that mad transfer comittee, to appease Rodgers. When Klopp arrived, he was more than happy to work how he was used to working - with a director, rather than a comittee.
 

Lentwood

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Klopp re-built Liverpool, Pep Re-built City
Have to take issue with this because it really highlights one of our primary issues post SAF - we seem to believe that just having the right man sat in the dugout is enough

Klopp and Pep didn’t rebuild Liverpool and City at all. To use an analogy, imagine Formula 1. Pep and Klopp are great drivers (Hamilton and Leclerc) but they can only do what they do because they are in the best cars (Mercedes and Ferrari) - and for them to be in the best cars requires a fantastic team of engineers, analysts and tacticians

Sure you could put them in the Lotus or the Toro Rosso and they would still be good drivers. But they wouldn’t win anything.

Ive said it before and I’ll keep saying this - we really need to get over this Cult of the Manager fast. They come and go but the success or failure of a club can’t be (and isn’t) solely in their hands
 

Bestietom

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Klopp re-built Liverpool, Pep Re-built City

But not without the money that the owners supplied to them.
 

Infra-red

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Yep, this is the point I'm trying to prove with all these posters who reckon our current structure is fine and it's the managers fault that we're in the position we're in.
I don't think anyone really believes that this is going anywhere. This latest "rebuild" is simply part of a series of rebuilds that have been initiated every 2 or so years since Ferguson retired.

In a year's time we'll likely have a new manager, who will want his own players, and with no DoF to ensure even a modicum of continuity, many of the players bought in the preceding 2 years will probably find themselves sidelined.

We are in a state of perpetual "rebuilds/transition phases" for the foreseeable.
 

devilish

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United's rebuild cannot start unless we've got a competent board who can handle a high staff turnover. We need somebody who get rid of the deadwood while concurrently replace such deadwood with good quality players. That would reduce complacency, it would maximise the money we can get out of unwanted players and it will give the message across that we mean business. Who will ever take us seriously when we insist to keep someone like Jones for nearly a decade?
 

dev1l

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The rebuild has one major problem.... Not enough cash available. The club is busy trying to cut costs so less cash is available. During summer a reporter claimed that there was only 100 million available (net). And in the end we spent around 70m net.
 

devilish

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Klopp re-built Liverpool, Pep Re-built City

But not without the money that the owners supplied to them.
It is possible to rebuild the squad without spending the outrageous amount of money City spent. However that requires a huge restructuring which include

a- A top quality football CEO who knows his stuff and isn't constantly taken to the cleaners by players, agents and clubs
b- A top quality DOF and scouting team who is knowledgeable about world football and can spot a bargain from miles away. We currently have Ole who knows about foreign leagues as much as Rooney know about nuclear science
c- A manager whose tactics and man management skills allows him to maximise the potential of the team rather then hinder it.

Once we've got that then we can handle a high staff turnover. That means that deadwood will be sold quickly and for a decent fee, new players are brought in the moment we spot the need for them, the salary bill is kept low while each player will be on his toes cause one mistake might cost him his career at top level.
 

devilish

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The rebuild has one major problem.... Not enough cash available. The club is busy trying to cut costs so less cash is available. During summer a reporter claimed that there was only 100 million available (net). And in the end we spent around 70m net.
That's an issue but its not that terrible either. Imagine if we had a top system in place and we ended up with the following transfers

DC: Pavard 35m
RB: AWB- 50m
Midfield: Rabiot and Ramsey - free
RW: Bergwijn - 40m
LW: James - 15m
Stk: Icardi (loan)

We would be flying.

Instead we've got a manager who has a poor grasp of players from other football leagues and an incompetent CEO who takes ages to conclude a deal.
 

Bestietom

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It is possible to rebuild the squad without spending the outrageous amount of money City spent. However that requires a huge restructuring which include

a- A top quality football CEO who knows his stuff and isn't constantly taken to the cleaners by players, agents and clubs
b- A top quality DOF and scouting team who is knowledgeable about world football and can spot a bargain from miles away. We currently have Ole who knows about foreign leagues as much as Rooney know about nuclear science
c- A manager whose tactics and man management skills allows him to maximise the potential of the team rather then hinder it.

Once we've got that then we can handle a high staff turnover. That means that deadwood will be sold quickly and for a decent fee, new players are brought in the moment we spot the need for them, the salary bill is kept low while each player will be on his toes cause one mistake might cost him his career at top level.
I agree, but I cannot see Woodward standing down for anyone soon. We need to start restructuring throughout and badly need a DOF who is given full control of transfers and football matters.
 

Nikelesh Reddy

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So you don’t think completing a world record signing in Maguire is an attempt to rebuild? Signing a 50m right back isn’t rebuilding? Tying down DDG to a long term deal?

Come on. The owners are sh!te, the CEO is sh!te, but they are attempting a re-build because it’s in their best interests (making themselves rich) in keeping United near the top.
Agree.Ridiculous to say that they aren’t even trying to rebuild the club....but they need the right manager to be a part of that process.Our current manager is obviously woefully inequipped to rebuild the team...
 

Jonno

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Have to take issue with this because it really highlights one of our primary issues post SAF - we seem to believe that just having the right man sat in the dugout is enough

Klopp and Pep didn’t rebuild Liverpool and City at all. To use an analogy, imagine Formula 1. Pep and Klopp are great drivers (Hamilton and Leclerc) but they can only do what they do because they are in the best cars (Mercedes and Ferrari) - and for them to be in the best cars requires a fantastic team of engineers, analysts and tacticians

Sure you could put them in the Lotus or the Toro Rosso and they would still be good drivers. But they wouldn’t win anything.

Ive said it before and I’ll keep saying this - we really need to get over this Cult of the Manager fast. They come and go but the success or failure of a club can’t be (and isn’t) solely in their hands
No, I disagree with that. Hodgson had the same tools Klopp had, but he wasn't up to the task of re-building Liverpool. Klopp re-built Liverpool. Pep transformed City from being a top 4 teams to a dominant winning machine.

We have the resources, we have the platform, but we don't have the right manager in charge.
 

Infra-red

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If we don't spend anything in January or we bring some relic from Juventus dustbin then Ole's future is pretty much signed.
He's probably a dead man walking already. The club will presumably wish to avoid relegation and so a striker will probably come in. New manager will then be given £70m-£100m in the summer.
 

dev1l

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He's probably a dead man walking already. The club will presumably wish to avoid relegation and so a striker will probably come in. New manager will then be given £70m-£100m in the summer.
We might spend 250 million next summer IF we sell Pogba for 150...
 

devilish

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He's probably a dead man walking already. The club will presumably wish to avoid relegation and so a striker will probably come in. New manager will then be given £70m-£100m in the summer.
If Ole's future is sealed then we will get Mandzukic at best.
 

Lee565

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True. More like 120m
I would say even less than that with how Solskjear is using pogba so deep this season and playing under such awful management that has the team looking completely lost. We are basically shooting ourselves in the foot with how we are restricting pogba's ability to score and create assists in the final third.
 

dev1l

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I would say even less than that with how Solskjear is using pogba so deep this season and playing under such awful management that has the team looking completely lost. We are basically shooting ourselves in the foot with how we are restricting pogba's ability to score and create assists in the final third.
We should then tell France to play him in final third too then
 

Noc-Z

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Well said. This probably belongs in its own thread, but why did we buy Dan James?

He’s been good no doubt but really, he’s a left winger, and we have rashford and martial?

Just another strange signing that meant we had to spend another transfer window getting the needed right winger.
I agree and right wing has frustrated me for years! We also bought Sanchez and played him on the left when Martial had been on a good run there. All the while completely neglecting the right. Can't get my head round the logic. There's been a lack of proper planning for a long time. The neglect of the squad has been ridiculous and dates back to before Fergie retired. Should never have required a rebuild - the team should see a natural evolution but thats impossible now and maybe Fergie saw that.

I actually think enough money has been invested post Fergie, but not wisely enough. Nowhere near it. So now we need to spend more. Far more.
 

tenpoless

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As long as We haven't found the right manager, We'll always be rebuilding. Every time a new manager comes in it's another rebuilding process.

There's no clear plan in our recruitment. The new manager always want to get rid of players from the previous manager mainly due to the tactics they want to implement. So the rebuilding process has started a long time ago, it's just never finished and then another rebuilding comes in. We're on a loop.
 

Freeney

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It’s down to the manager in charge.

We wouldn’t be crying about where we are now if Pep was in charge, if Klopp was in charge. They would have made better decisions on transfers and our squad would be completely different.

Each would have had £700m to spend in addition to a title winning squad.
You are 100 procent correct.

The same people who criticise the club for not spending enough are the same people who gets angry and cry about overspending on ”bad” players, when a few months before the signings they were writing and urging the club to buy (Fred, Lukaku, matic and so on).

Hypocrites.
 
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red thru&thru

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6 year rebuild? Wasn't even that broke in the first place. Some how they have managed to ruin a championship winning club.
 

Russky14

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I agree and right wing has frustrated me for years! We also bought Sanchez and played him on the left when Martial had been on a good run there. All the while completely neglecting the right. Can't get my head round the logic. There's been a lack of proper planning for a long time. The neglect of the squad has been ridiculous and dates back to before Fergie retired. Should never have required a rebuild - the team should see a natural evolution but thats impossible now and maybe Fergie saw that.

I actually think enough money has been invested post Fergie, but not wisely enough. Nowhere near it. So now we need to spend more. Far more.
The logic on Sanchez full stop was the Galactico syndrome and shirt sales.
 
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lysglimt

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Predictable, but to be fair it IS difficult to do good business in January. Not impossible, but very difficult.
Exactly - you need a good memory to find 10 january transfers over the last 3-4 seasons, who significantly improved their sides right away

There were a few really good ones in 2018 (Van Dijk, Aubameyang, Laporte, Deulofeu, Moura), next to none in 2019 - Tielemans was an exception

But it's pretty much a case of finding that one player who is in a club willing to let him go without being certain of getting a replacement in. For instance I am pretty certain that for instance Leicester won't let a player go in january - because they know they don't have to, and they feel they can reach the C.L if they keep the player.
 

momo83

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Apparently United are rebuilding. If our former players are to be believed, the rebuild will take three years to complete, others suggest maybe five years. Thereafter, United are expected to be competing for top honours again.

In truth, all this is nothing more than nonsense. United's rebuild has not even started and years of decline are likely to come before the rebuild even begins.

Liverpool is often used as the comparison for how long it will take for United's rebuild to take. Commentators and fans alike cite the four years that it has taken Jurgen Klopp to turn Liverpool into European Champions and serious Premier League title contenders again, but such comparisons are completely mad and here's is why:

  • The Glazers remain in charge and are not going anywhere - Liverpool's rebuild did not start with Klopp, it started with Fenway Sports Group in 2010. By any objective assessment the words 'rebuild' and 'Glazers' cannot be seriously mentioned in the same sentence. For United to have any hopes of moving forward as a football club, it is universally excepted that the Glazers, whose driving motivation is commercial profit, rather than on-filed success, have to go (just as Gillette and Hicks had to depart Liverpool). Point to make here is that rebuilds start with the right ownership
  • It takes time and patience find the right manager to take you forward - people often point to the time it has taken Klopp to rebuild Liverpool. However, FSG sacked three managers Hodgson, Dalglish and Rogers before appointing Klopp. In other words, it took them five years to appoint the right manager and they had to wait a further four years (nearly a decade) for their first major trophy (that's if you discount the EFL Cup won under Dalglish in 2011). The point to make here is that, even with the right ownership, you sometimes need to kiss a lot of frogs to find a prince.
  • Nothing can be built in a climate of uncertainty - Let's cut to the chase, there is a very real prospect that Ole will not be United manager next season. Until there is genuine stability at United there will be nothing to build upon. By contrast Liverpool stuck with Klopp after an initial period of real uncertainty, where it seemed like the fans where starting to turn against him. The point here is that if United are serious about a rebuild they will have to appoint a manager, stick to him and see it through.
  • Recruitment is not about money spent it is about money spent wisely - United are one of the richest clubs in the world and yet since Sir Alex Ferguson left, our record in the transfer market has been woeful. It is not that money has not been spent, it is that it has been spent poorly. FSG made similar mistakes in the beginning wasting millions on the likes of Andy Carroll, Stewart Downing, Charlie Adam, Mario Balotelli and more. However, on balance and particularly under Klopp, their transfer business has been outstanding. By contrast, on balance United transfer business has been more miss than hit and average at best
In short, it is time to stop comparing United's 'rebuild' with Liverpool's, there is no comparison. It took ten years for Liverpool's rebuild to produce results and that was only after new owners, committed to the club's success, took charge.
The qualm I have with comparing Ole to Klopp, besides the fact that it’s like comparing a £2 a night hostel to a 7 star hotel, is that while it did take Klopp 4 years to win a European Cup and launch a genuine title challenge, throughout those years there was still improvement. It’s not as if they stayed rubbish or became even worse and then suddenly one season played great football, got 97 points and won the European Cup.

The point you said about 10 years is also true from the top. The new owners came in and set a 5 point mandate...
1) Pay off the debt.
2) Increase revenue and become a profit making club
3) Attract the best players
4) Develop a culture of winning
5) Win trophies

I remember when the Glazers took over there was no talk of any strategy. Privately they looked at it and thought let’s just milk this cash cow.