VAR and Refs | General Discussion

[Taribo's Gap]

Much has already been said about some of the drawbacks of VAR, but I think one element that has changed is the heightened expectation of precision that has accompanied the introduction of the new technology. Whereas before, the occasional marginal offside or undetected foul in the run up to a goal was begrudingly accepted as part of the game, now, with the introduction of VAR, we have fans and clubs poring over the minutiae of the rulebook, viewing and reviewing slow motion replays in realtime and engaging in endless debates about subjective determinations that have always been a part of the game. In erstwhile eras, you just take the marginal decisions on the chin and try to take it in stride and worry about what you can control, but now, with these heightened expectations and the available technology, everything becomes a scandal.

There is an unspoken assumption that increased transparency will beget improved outcomes and enjoyment of the product, but I'm not so sure this is correct because it centers the referee too much. Who wants consumption of the game to become overly-focused on protracted exegesis of the rulebook and the interpretation thereof? In the main, the precision in refereeing has probably improved with the introduction of VAR, even if it may not be worth the other tradeoffs. Going further down that rabbit hole might lead to an incremental improvement in precision, but it will almost certainly be accompanied by additional tedium, "scandal", scrutiny and drama. Soon we will be scrutinizing the tone and timber of the official's voice in the audio replay, the time it takes to deliver a decision and the spirt versus the letter of Rule 5, subsection 4, romanette (ii) of the Rules. Tedious.

Until the AI robots take over, there is no way you are going to completely eliminate human error from how games are officiated, and even then the debate will have shifted to algorithmic bias. You risk further damaging the product in search of each incremental percentage point in improvement. Nobody makes much fuss when VAR corrects obviously incorrect decisions that would have been overlooked 10 years ago. Instead they shift the focus of their ire and attention on the more circumscribed universe of controversial decisions because fans will always do what fans do and their expectations for precision have been heightened to incorporate the capabilities of the new technology.

I'm not saying referees shouldn't be held accountable. I'm not saying periodic reviews for improvement and rule changes shouldn't happen. I'm not saying that even real-time process improvements like the one following the Liverpool incident should not be welcome. I just find the degree to which VAR and the referees have become the story every week to be tiresome because as technology and processes improve, fans and clubs will always recalibrate their expectations and take those improvements for granted.

Anyway, well done to Arteta for successfully diverting attention away from that poor showing.

 

[V.O.]

It worked for Liverpool. It probably works for any team that has the guts to call out these shit decisions.

We've been fecked over more than any other team these last two seasons - the stats back that up. But the club have done nothing about it.

The Liverpool one was for an objectively wrong decision from a breakdown in the actual VAR process. I can understand kicking up that kind of a stink about that.

This is just the kind of subjective call that teams have go against them every week. The manager having a whinge in the post match interview is par for the course, but giving it the big official club statement about something like that is pathetic.

 

[sebsheep]

The clubs are now hiding their poor performances in some matches behind a poor decision, it’s embarrassing. Arsenal were dreadful yesterday yet everyone is ignoring that. These statements by Arsenal and Liverpool beforehand are pathetic.

That's probably because a poor decision is a poor decision regardless of how well a team played.

 

[TheGame]

That's probably because a poor decision is a poor decision regardless of how well a team played.

There are poor decisions throughout many games, issuing statements is just pathetic. Accept some go for you and some dont.

 

[manutddjw]

Arsenal did the right. I can guarantee you the next decision will go in Arsenal’s favour. Liverpool always get favourable calls because Klopp and their fans will go after them and the cowardly refs are scared of the fallout.

 

[Garnacho's Shoelaces]

Arsenal have had many poor decisions go against us. Just look look back through this thread. Every time it happens the very next comment is a pity party for United.

“That was judged out when it was Rashford”
“That was given offside when it was Garnacho”.
“They don’t give that penalty if it was Hojland”.

Sometimes there’s even complaints about the decisions that have gone your way.

“Look at the keeper fouling Jesus, getting away with it and everybody moves on. The media talked about Onana doing the same thing at Wolves for weeks.”

Arsenal get screwed over, United escape punishment for a stonewall penalty and the real victims are… United.

Sometimes I feel like if logged into RAWK by mistake (and trust me - it would be a mistake).

Are you referencing the overturned penalty in our game?

 

[Sandikan]

I thought it was a foul by Joelinton. He's clearly got 2 arms on the defender, pushing him down and stopping him from jumping/raising his head to clear the ball away.

I've only seen the goal a couple of times and not a great angle, but yes, never mind the ball in/out debate, the 2 handed push into the back of the defender, enough to leave him on the floor, being ignored was outrageous.

Although their fans didn't think it was a foul when Odegaard clearly shoved Eriksen from behind at our place last season, so maybe they appreciate these pushes being allowed

 

[Amar__]

There was clear handball/penalty against Liverpool that they just ignored for some reason in that first half. Embarassing stuff.

 

[Withnail]

Embarrassing from Arsenal.

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Twats

 

[One Night Only]

There was clear handball/penalty against Liverpool that they just ignored for some reason in that first half. Embarassing stuff.

Commentators didn't even bother mentioning it even though it was shown on a replay

 

[Amar__]

Commentators didn't even bother mentioning it even though it was shown on a replay

Well it's not Manchester United, nothing will be said about it anymore.

 

[arnie_ni]

Serve arsenal right. You have to be for better officiating and better var all the time not just when it suits your own team.

 

[CoopersDream]

Remind me again why the offside rule was introduced into football?

In 30+ years of watching football, I cannot remember a goal being disallowed because someone who didn't even touch the ball, didn't impede anyone and didn't distract the keeper or block his view was marginally offside at the time the initial ball was played.

Maybe I'm just ignorant to this being a common occurence these days but after googling and youtubing yesterday I couldn't find a video of a goal being disallowed in similar circumstances.

This has always been offside though. It's not a VAR thing, it is just that with VAR it is easier to spot these kind of offsides.

Whether or not these kind of offsides was why the rule was introduced is irrelevant - gaining an advantage from an offside position is absolutely something that should be disallowed in the spririt of the game. Then of course you can have the discussion what kind of offside margin you should allow (I think they should have a bit more margin of error giving more benefit of a doubt for attackers), but that is a different matter to me.

Anyway, I always maintain that they need to make the law clearer, so there isn't any subjectiveness in it (when it comes to offsides). It is those part of the rule that causes things to be incosistent - it is impossible to get consistent decisions when the law leaves room for interpretations.

 

[90 + 5min]

Embarrassing from Arsenal.

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Brilliant by Arsenal. People can talk all day long but that is what you do. That is why Arsenal is usually getting decisions for them.

Our club should be doing this. With even more stronger words. Why is ManUtd treated badly by referees and VAR? We should demand investigations. We should demand transparency with mics and cam. We should demand tapes from games we have been playing. We should demand answers how our opposition always gets decisions for them when they play against us. TenHag and our board must raise voice because treatment of us have been nothing short of a scandal.

 

[One Night Only]

Brilliant by Arsenal. People can talk all day long but that is what you do. That is why Arsenal is usually getting decisions for them.

Our club should be doing this. With even more stronger words. Why is ManUtd treated badly by referees and VAR? We should demand investigations. We should demand transparency with mics and cam. We should demand tapes from games we have been playing. We should demand answers how our opposition always gets decisions for them when they play against us. TenHag and our board must raise voice because treatment of us have been nothing short of a scandal.

It's not brilliant as VAR was brilliant for them before this, they're just sulking because a decision has actually went against them instead of saving them.

It's a clown show. You can't whinge about it just when it suits your agenda. They were fine with shit decisions for other teams against them.

These decisions they're moaning about aren't even incorrect decisions ffs

 

[stevoc]

This has always been offside though. It's not a VAR thing, it is just that with VAR it is easier to spot these kind of offsides.

Whether or not these kind of offsides was why the rule was introduced is irrelevant - gaining an advantage from an offside position is absolutely something that should be disallowed in the spririt of the game. Then of course you can have the discussion what kind of offside margin you should allow (I think they should have a bit more margin of error giving more benefit of a doubt for attackers), but that is a different matter to me.

Anyway, I always maintain that they need to make the law clearer, so there isn't any subjectiveness in it. It is those part of the rule that causes things to be incosistent - it is impossible to get consistent decisions when the law leaves room for interpretations.

OK I could be willing to accept that. Do you know of any videos on YouTube showing simular incidents where a goal was ruled out?

Surely it must happen every week if that's the case.

And I'd disagree strongly that the majority of VAR offside decisions are in the spirit of the rule. The rule was introduced to prevent goal hanging. I dont think anyone envisaged that one day, officials would be arbitrarily freezing a video at the point they decide the ball was played. And then proceeding to choose a random camera angle to plop lines down to determine whether or not an attackers eyebrow was 5mm offside.

When you have to get to that stage to determine if it's onside. Then it should just be onside.

 

[caid]

This has always been offside though. It's not a VAR thing, it is just that with VAR it is easier to spot these kind of offsides.

Whether or not these kind of offsides was why the rule was introduced is irrelevant - gaining an advantage from an offside position is absolutely something that should be disallowed in the spririt of the game. Then of course you can have the discussion what kind of offside margin you should allow (I think they should have a bit more margin of error giving more benefit of a doubt for attackers), but that is a different matter to me.

Anyway, I always maintain that they need to make the law clearer, so there isn't any subjectiveness in it (when it comes to offsides). It is those part of the rule that causes things to be incosistent - it is impossible to get consistent decisions when the law leaves room for interpretations.

I think the chance of seeing a repeat of that decision this season is zero. Which is a good thing to be clear because it was a stupid call.

 

[mathrait]

I've only seen the goal a couple of times and not a great angle, but yes, never mind the ball in/out debate, the 2 handed push into the back of the defender, enough to leave him on the floor, being ignored was outrageous.

Although their fans didn't think it was a foul when Odegaard clearly shoved Eriksen from behind at our place last season, so maybe they appreciate these pushes being allowed

If you watch the goal again and look at Joelinton's reaction, he stood there for a few seconds looking at the ref while his teammates celebrated. Even he couldn't believe the ref has given it

 

[vanrooney]

eth should more often blame the refs

 

[90 + 5min]

It's not brilliant as VAR was brilliant for them before this, they're just sulking because a decision has actually went against them instead of saving them.

It's a clown show. You can't whinge about it just when it suits your agenda. They were fine with shit decisions for other teams against them.

These decisions they're moaning about aren't even incorrect decisions ffs

We know that Arsenal have been getting decisions in their games. Yesterday, it should have been freekick before the goal.

However the points is that they protect the club by making that statement. We let referees, VAR and everybody else bully us without even asking, how, what and why are things happening against us.

 

[One Night Only]

We know that Arsenal have been getting decisions in their games. Yesterday, it should have been freekick before the goal.

However the points is that they protect the club by making that statement. We let referees, VAR and everybody else bully us without even asking, how, what and why are things happening against us. Who is behind that?

Maybe we do ask how, but behind the scenes. You're not supposed to publicly slate the refs, which I'd take as VAR too. Arteta should be fined for his stupid outburst. I am 100% sure this was a fave of them to hand bans and fines out for a couple years ago.

Arteta is just trying to look like he is passionate about it and thinks his public show of childishness will get people on his side.

Referees do need to be held more accountable, I've always said it. They just get away Scott free no matter what they do, worst they get is demoted for a game or 2 then they're back making shit decisions with zero consequences.

It's usually the VAR guys who are doing the worst. Proper phoning it in, sure they don't even pay proper attention.

 

[Sandikan]

This has always been offside though. It's not a VAR thing, it is just that with VAR it is easier to spot these kind of offsides.

Whether or not these kind of offsides was why the rule was introduced is irrelevant - gaining an advantage from an offside position is absolutely something that should be disallowed in the spririt of the game. Then of course you can have the discussion what kind of offside margin you should allow (I think they should have a bit more margin of error giving more benefit of a doubt for attackers), but that is a different matter to me.

Anyway, I always maintain that they need to make the law clearer, so there isn't any subjectiveness in it (when it comes to offsides). It is those part of the rule that causes things to be incosistent - it is impossible to get consistent decisions when the law leaves room for interpretations.

Well yes, but it wasn't that long ago Salah stood miles offside, the goon defender dealt with the ball as he needed to, then Salah ended up scoring straight after.

That sort of incident should have been way more important to clamp down on.

To expect the defender to leave a ball, not being 100% clear if Salah was lurking, level or offside, is ridiculous.

 

[Strelok]

Embarrassing from Arsenal.

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What's embarrassing about this?

Just watch the highlights how the feck that goal stood ffs. And this is exactly what ETH should have been doing instead of saying feck all when we got shit on by refs and VAR.

 

[RedRocket9908]

Nice to see Klopp getting yellow carded, these managers get away with too much these days.

 

[90 + 5min]

Maybe we do ask how, but behind the scenes. You're not supposed to publicly slate the refs, which I'd take as VAR too. Arteta should be fined for his stupid outburst. I am 100% sure this was a fave of them to hand bans and fines out for a couple years ago.

Arteta is just trying to look like he is passionate about it and thinks his public show of childishness will get people on his side.

Referees do need to be held more accountable, I've always said it. They just get away Scott free no matter what they do, worst they get is demoted for a game or 2 then they're back making shit decisions with zero consequences.

It's usually the VAR guys who are doing the worst. Proper phoning it in, sure they don't even pay proper attention.

Behind the scenes? Well it doesn't help us anything. Lets see

Lost against Arsenal because of refs and VAR. Lost against CP because of refs and VAR. Lost against Tottenham because of refs and VAR. Lost against ManCity because refs and VAR. Would we have won those games? At least some of them.

We got some weird decisions against Burnely, against Wolves and now against Fulham even if we won. Not to mention all those small decision that influence games like yellow cards in early stages, on important players, freekicks and so on.

 

[Daydreamer]

Are you referencing the overturned penalty in our game?

Nope, but I wasn't being very clear, to be fair.

Robert Sanchez took out Jesus in our match against Chelsea in a very similar fashion to Onana vs Wolves. We didn't get the penalty and and it wasn't really made a big deal of by commentators, pundits or anyone - apart from salty Gooners. There were then a few posts in this thread about how if that was Onana it would have been constantly brough back up even weeks later. Which is fair enough, this is a United forum after all.

It was just in response to a post that saying Arsenal have only had a single decision go against them in the last year. We've had loads go against us as can be seen in throughout this thread. It's just instantly framed as anti-United, which, once again, makes sense as this is a thread complaining about refs on a United forum.

 

[One Night Only]

Behind the scenes? Well it doesn't help us anything. Lets see

Lost against Arsenal because of refs and VAR. Lost against CP because of refs and VAR. Lost against Tottenham because of refs and VAR. Lost against ManCity because refs and VAR. Would we have won those games? At least some of them.

We got some weird decisions against Burnely, against Wolves and now against Fulham even if we won. Not to mention all those small decision that influence games like yellow cards in early stages, on important players, freekicks and so on.

Tbf we lost a lot of those games by just being shite. VAR didn't help, but we didn't help ourselves either.

 

[CoopersDream]

OK I could be willing to accept that. Do you know of any videos on YouTube showing simular incidents where a goal was ruled out?

I don't and I frankly don't have the energy to look it up.

My general memory from watching football 15 years ago though was that offsides were called much faster and didn't wait until the player was deemed to be active. Again, just because it's a slight offside and hard for a lino to spot does not make it less offside.

I actually found a video of a slightly similar situation
I know it isn't the same but a ball is crossed into the area, where an offside player makes an attempt but mistimes it, and the ball falls to an onside player and a goal is scored shortly thereafter.

 

[90 + 5min]

Tbf we lost a lot of those games by just being shite. VAR didn't help, but we didn't help ourselves either.

Not at all.
Against Arsenal. Garnacho scores clear goal. Disallowed. Arsenal scores a goal that should have been freekick.
Against CP. Crystal Palace scores a goal that is similar the one Evans got his disallowed week before. Player infront of keeper. We should have penalty.
Against Tottenham. When the game was equal we should have had clear penalty. Nothing given.
Against ManCity. When the game was equal they gave goal to ManCity for nothing.

Inclusive all little decision going their way.

 

[CoopersDream]

Well yes, but it wasn't that long ago Salah stood miles offside, the goon defender dealt with the ball as he needed to, then Salah ended up scoring straight after.

That sort of incident should have been way more important to clamp down on.

To expect the defender to leave a ball, not being 100% clear if Salah was lurking, level or offside, is ridiculous.

Yes, I agree that the debilerate thing is crazy. That should absolutely, in the spirit of the game, be offside (haven't actually seen this particular instance but seen a fair few fitting that description). Unfortunately the rules are so bad in these situations so that these kind of goals can be allowed.

 

[Anustart89]

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Tables like these are always dumb though because it doesn't count all the instances where VAR could (should) have intervened but didn't, like Romero handball, Gabriel foul on Højlund and potentially Ward handball where he tracks the ball for 40 yards before turning his back to it at which point his hand flails out and denies Rashford a shot on goal.

It just counts where VAR overturned an on-pitch decision and you can't say you're hard done by if the linesman misses an offsides that VAR shows was offside. That's just getting the right decision.

 

[Garnacho's Shoelaces]

Nope, but I wasn't being very clear, to be fair.

Robert Sanchez took out Jesus in our match against Chelsea in a very similar fashion to Onana vs Wolves. We didn't get the penalty and and it wasn't really made a big deal of by commentators, pundits or anyone - apart from salty Gooners. There were then a few posts in this thread about how if that was Onana it would have been constantly brough back up even weeks later. Which is fair enough, this is a United forum after all.

It was just in response to a post that saying Arsenal have only had a single decision go against them in the last year. We've had loads go against us as can be seen in throughout this thread. It's just instantly framed as anti-United, which, once again, makes sense as this is a thread complaining about refs on a United forum.

Fair enough.

 

[RedRocket9908]

The officials have added plenty of Kloppage time here, and just as im typing they get their equalizer.

 

[Strelok]

Tbh I started to seriously question what the hell is wrong with the PL refs. I can't remember a game where they're even slightly decent at their job anymore. While in Europe football like CL or EL most of the time the ref are very decent, balanced and unbiased. Except when the match involves some teams like Barca or Madrid. Which made me to question even more.

 

[Bubz27]

The officials have added plenty of Kloppage time here, and just as im typing they get their equalizer.

 

[V.O.]

There's got to be a table of the various amounts of added time when each team is chasing a result. Seems nailed on 8+ minutes when Liverpool or Arsenal aren't winning regardless of what happens in the actual game.

Playing 10 extra minutes in a game where there was one 1-2 min VAR check and no other major stoppages... for what reason?

 

[Zlatan 7]

What's embarrassing about this?

Just watch the highlights how the feck that goal stood ffs. And this is exactly what ETH should have been doing instead of saying feck all when we got shit on by refs and VAR.

Well the ball didn’t go out of play. It wasn’t offside and the ‘foul’ wasn’t clear and obvious enough to overturn. The defender was stooping and going down before any contact. Don’t know what all the fuss is about.

 

[NicolaSacco]

What's embarrassing about this?

Just watch the highlights how the feck that goal stood ffs. And this is exactly what ETH should have been doing instead of saying feck all when we got shit on by refs and VAR.

It’s embarrassing because Arteta couldn’t actually explain which decision was incorrect. He’s just upset he lost. He looked stupid. Exactly as ETH would have looked if he’d done the same.

 

[Strelok]

Well the ball didn’t go out of play. It wasn’t offside and the ‘foul’ wasn’t clear and obvious enough to overturn. The defender was stooping and going down before any contact. Don’t know what all the fuss is about.

I don't know if the ball went out or not. But it's fecking obvious the Newcastle player was using his hands to push the Arsenal defender. From when it's legal to use your hands to push another player down when that player is running while competing for the ball? What you'd need more for that to be obvious enough?

 

[Withnail]

I don't and I frankly don't have the energy to look it up.

My general memory from watching football 15 years ago though was that offsides were called much faster and didn't wait until the player was deemed to be active. Again, just because it's a slight offside and hard for a lino to spot does not make it less offside.

I actually found a video of a slightly similar situation
I know it isn't the same but a ball is crossed into the area, where an offside player makes an attempt but mistimes it, and the ball falls to an onside player and a goal is scored shortly thereafter.

This so completely different though. The offside player here distracts the goalie who has to come out to cover a potential shot, leaving the goal wide open for the other attacker.

None of those things happened with Maguire yesterday. I think you'd be hard pressed to find an example of what occured yesterday being given as offside.