VAR - Not the hero we want, the one we need

[mancan92]

That’s the thing though isn’t it, there isn’t any facts to prove whether it’s a success or not, yet people still argue their side as if it’s clear cut when it’s actually all just opinions.
Some thought the World Cup was a raging VAR success, I and others thought it highlighted issues and was a bit of a joke. (Even with some correct turn around decisions)

What are you on about? After the world cup there were many stats released to show the improvement with VAR.

You are straight up lying

 

[awop]

I’m sorry and don’t want go around in circles but in my opinion, it has not been an outright game changing success yet. It may well get there, at the moment it hasn’t.

Genuine question: what would you need for it to be considered successful ? 6 months whithout a mistake ? big decision in a final for your team ? Does it have to be in England ? Are other leagues okay ?
You say it may well get there, but how do you want to get there without using it ? Do you want every big league to use it for 10 years and then bring it to the Premier League ? Whenever you do it, you are going to have to go through an initial period sparkled with feck-ups like the one you cited.It is inevitable.You have to take it for granted.Next season there is a chance Arsenal will get absolutey shafted by a bizarre VAR decision or maybe 2 or 3.I will still be glad it is in use in the league because it is evident that overall the game will benefit from it.

Just seen Fulham’s pen in the FA cup on MOTD that VAR didn’t overturn. More evidence of it being a success

Yep just seen it, ridiculous decision, the referee should really have better training to not make these sort of mistakes.
Unfunny and condescending tone aside, on penaltys decision, the referee should be checking the video himself every time.How the VAR confirmed that as a penalty is a mystery. Lucky they missed and Odham went on to win the game, but it won't always be like that.

 

[mancan92]

Yep all those in favour of VAR are really condescending on here. It’s childish & a bit odd.

They think VAR is the best thing that’s ever happened to football & if anyone disagrees they must be mentally not all there. When in fact if they decided to look at it in depth & realise all the potential harm & fundamental changing of the game for not much gain they’d intact see that they’re the ones who are ‘cavemen’ for not thinking about VAR a bit more deeply.

Genuinely thats because like the arguments that involved people wanting mourinho to stay, there is absolutely no logic just idealistic hopes and wishes. Stuff like killing the spirit of the game, what are we going to talk about, fans will get bored etc etc. All these have been proven to be wrong and are just nonsense from a logistic point of view so don't be surprised when people are condescending to you. The reasons to bring in VR from a logic point of view far outweigh any of the idealistic hopes and dreams you guys talk of.

 

[montpelier]

I might have been slightly won over into thinking it's worth a try.

But, the against points being made are still valid.

Breaks in play, teams & players will find a way to 'game' this. You can be certain of that.

The ardent VAR pros seem to think it's a panacea (a few will need to look that up I'd imagine)

And it weights toward the better team again. As everything they change seems to do.

 

[montpelier]

I'll give you one problem for a start-off.

Some of you in favour don't want every goal to get checked.

There's gonna be more goals though, so I don't suppose a few dodge ones sneaking through matters all that much does it?

 

[mancan92]

I'll give you one problem for a start-off.

Some of you in favour don't want every goal to get checked.

There's gonna be more goals though, so I don't suppose a few dodge ones sneaking through matters all that much does it?

Regardless of whether every decision is correct or not is a bit irrelevant. The most important thing is improving the amount of right decision. As the years go by we will find more and more ways to get it perfect to get nearly all decisions right. Just because every goal won't be checked doesn't mean that enough goals will be checked to improve those decisions.

 

[montpelier]

Regardless of whether every decision is correct or not is a bit irrelevant. The most important thing is improving the amount of right decision. As the years go by we will find more and more ways to get it perfect to get nearly all decisions right. Just because every goal won't be checked doesn't mean that enough goals will be checked to improve those decisions.

Fewer dodge-ones than now is a reasonable argument I suppose.

But I also mainly have the perspective of not liking breaks in play.

You'd actually get more value from a bloke perched in a chair on each crossbar. If he did his job well & could be persuaded to actually do it.

Or automated offsides that worked 100% properly with a rule that is vaguely sensible (in it's consistent fairness & not varying wildly from week to week)

But we get fecking VAR for the benefit of American TV & the limited attention span of their watchers.

 

[mancan92]

Fewer dodge-ones than now is a reasonable argument I suppose.

But I also mainly have the perspective of not liking breaks in play.

You'd actually get more value from a bloke perched in a chair on each crossbar. If he did his job well & could be persuaded to actually do it.

Or automated offsides that worked 100% properly with a rule that is vaguely sensible (in it's consistent fairness & not varying wildly from week to week)

But we get fecking VAR for the benefit of American TV & the limited attention span of their watchers.

VAR is in rugby with no ads or rubbish and has been for years. There is no reason that it would become like america.

 

[Mb194dc]

Just watch a few league games from, Spain, Italy, France or Germany and see how it works. You barely even notice it, they only check obvious errors, goals for offside & possible fouls, red cards and other obvious errors the referee can't have seen. It's still in it's first season or two though and referees aren't fully comfortable with it yet.

There is still lots of controversy to discuss. For example in the Barcelona game yesterday there is a very slight push on Lenglet when Getafe score so it's disallowed. The referee didn't refer to VAR. I guess it's not an obvious error and ultimately the referee on the pitch makes the decisions. You can see it below:


Technically it's probably the correct decision I think even if very soft. Not sure why the referee didn't refer it to check at least though.

 

[RG 11]

Football is the only sport that I know of where I can watch the entire half without companies trying to sell me shit with their awful ads. As long as VAR doesn't feck with it, I'll all for it.

I barely noticed it during the world cup as well and didn't feel like it interrupted the flow of the game much.

You don't need to use it for every single decision like throw ins and stuff. Leave it to the ref to decide whether VAR is needed.

At the very least it'll stop / discourage blatantly obvious career ending tackles like Shelveys on Pogba.

 

[montpelier]

The previous English trial was a disaster of process rather than anything else, tbf.

And deciding what your 'thresholds' are I suppose. I hope they give some attention to what is & what isn't a dive. I think any suspicion of a load of theatrics should just get the thing disregarded, that's what I'd do.

And possibly who it is - Dele Alli would not be getting any favourable reviews under my jurisdiction.

 

[montpelier]

Football is the only sport that I know of where I can watch the entire half without companies trying to sell me shit with their awful ads. As long as VAR doesn't feck with it, I'll all for it.

I barely noticed it during the world cup as well and didn't feel like it interrupted the flow of the game much.

You don't need to use it for every single decision like throw ins and stuff. Leave it to the ref to decide whether VAR is needed.

At the very least it'll stop / discourage blatantly obvious career ending tackles like Shelveys on Pogba.

Your last line is a really good point. I don't think anyone can argue against that benefit.

 

[Zlatan 7]

What are you on about? After the world cup there were many stats released to show the improvement with VAR.

You are straight up lying

I am not lying

What I am in about is, and I repeat again, yes you have facts/stats that some decisions were made correctly. You do not have stats to show if its been a success as that is an opinion, Whether someone is happy to wait five minutes to get a possible subjective decision right or wrong is an opinion, not a fact.

The penalty in the fa cup yesterday, incorrect decision using VAR, the Barca game linked, iffy decision using VAR. it’s not clear cut. Again, in my opinion it’s not an outright success that people make it out to be.


@awop for it to be considered a success I’m not sure to be honest.

Not stopping the game for 5 minutes for an obvious decision would be a good start.
Consistency of use would be another point, when it is used? Some teams may benefit from it, some may not.
Clarity of the rules is another we need to go along side var, if everything can be pulled back and looked at in VAR we need to know what kind of contact consists a foul, everyone can agree tackles look worse in sow motion. We need to know what contact in the box is a penalty, a 1 second touch of a shirt to a 5 second pull of a shirt? Are either of these acceptable?

I just find that a lot of VAR decisions are just shifting the decision goalposts from a ref on the field to a ref in a room, is the delay worth it? we will still get different decisions to what we personally see on the screen.

I’m all in favour of a fair game but I think once we use a sow motion replay in football most touches or contacts can be considered a foul.

 

[kouroux]

I am not lying

What I am in about is, and I repeat again, yes you have facts/stats that some decisions were made correctly. You do not have stats to show if its been a success as that is an opinion, Whether someone is happy to wait five minutes to get a possible subjective decision right or wrong is an opinion, not a fact.

The penalty in the fa cup yesterday, incorrect decision using VAR, the Barca game linked, iffy decision using VAR. it’s not clear cut. Again, in my opinion it’s not an outright success that people make it out to be.


@awop for it to be considered a success I’m not sure to be honest.

Not stopping the game for 5 minutes for an obvious decision would be a good start.
Consistency of use would be another point, when it is used? Some teams may benefit from it, some may not.
Clarity of the rules is another we need to go along side var, if everything can be pulled back and looked at in VAR we need to know what kind of contact consists a foul, everyone can agree tackles look worse in sow motion. We need to know what contact in the box is a penalty, a 1 second touch of a shirt to a 5 second pull of a shirt? Are either of these acceptable?

I just find that a lot of VAR decisions are just shifting the decision goalposts from a ref on the field to a ref in a room, is the delay worth it? we will still get different decisions to what we personally see on the screen.

I’m all in favour of a fair game but I think once we use a sow motion replay in football most touches or contacts can be considered a foul.

Say what ?

 

[montpelier]

I am not lying

What I am in about is, and I repeat again, yes you have facts/stats that some decisions were made correctly. You do not have stats to show if its been a success as that is an opinion, Whether someone is happy to wait five minutes to get a possible subjective decision right or wrong is an opinion, not a fact.

The penalty in the fa cup yesterday, incorrect decision using VAR, the Barca game linked, iffy decision using VAR. it’s not clear cut. Again, in my opinion it’s not an outright success that people make it out to be.


@awop for it to be considered a success I’m not sure to be honest.

Not stopping the game for 5 minutes for an obvious decision would be a good start.
Consistency of use would be another point, when it is used? Some teams may benefit from it, some may not.
Clarity of the rules is another we need to go along side var, if everything can be pulled back and looked at in VAR we need to know what kind of contact consists a foul, everyone can agree tackles look worse in sow motion. We need to know what contact in the box is a penalty, a 1 second touch of a shirt to a 5 second pull of a shirt? Are either of these acceptable?

I just find that a lot of VAR decisions are just shifting the decision goalposts from a ref on the field to a ref in a room, is the delay worth it? we will still get different decisions to what we personally see on the screen.

I’m all in favour of a fair game but I think once we use a sow motion replay in football most touches or contacts can be considered a foul.

I think you've put that really well & I'm not 'arguing' as such.

But sometimes a player is entitled to get out of the way to avoid getting hurt or fall over an offered leg if it's the 2nd item of being impeded maybe.

I don't know - but these are problems anyway, they aren't just VAR problems. You certainly don't want more of them though.

I still liked your post a lot, honestly.

 

[Zlatan 7]

Say what ?

Sorry, it wasn’t worded the best. I can’t find a way to say what I mean.

If you read the rules and it says a shirt pull in the box is a foul, then that means it’s a foul obviously. Now we watch match of the day and see how much contact is in the box at a corner? How on earth do we determine what is enough for a pen and what is not in absolute 100% consistent way?
I know it’s pedantic but it seems that these will always be 50/50 calls that each var ref will make a different choice in any given day and with the benefit of multiple replays, there really shouldn’t be an excuse for.
That’s the same inconsistency that we face at the moment and I can’t see VAR changing that, only making it worse.

Something like that?

 

[mancan92]

I am not lying

What I am in about is, and I repeat again, yes you have facts/stats that some decisions were made correctly. You do not have stats to show if its been a success as that is an opinion, Whether someone is happy to wait five minutes to get a possible subjective decision right or wrong is an opinion, not a fact.

The penalty in the fa cup yesterday, incorrect decision using VAR, the Barca game linked, iffy decision using VAR. it’s not clear cut. Again, in my opinion it’s not an outright success that people make it out to be.


@awop for it to be considered a success I’m not sure to be honest.

Not stopping the game for 5 minutes for an obvious decision would be a good start.
Consistency of use would be another point, when it is used? Some teams may benefit from it, some may not.
Clarity of the rules is another we need to go along side var, if everything can be pulled back and looked at in VAR we need to know what kind of contact consists a foul, everyone can agree tackles look worse in sow motion. We need to know what contact in the box is a penalty, a 1 second touch of a shirt to a 5 second pull of a shirt? Are either of these acceptable?

I just find that a lot of VAR decisions are just shifting the decision goalposts from a ref on the field to a ref in a room, is the delay worth it? we will still get different decisions to what we personally see on the screen.

I’m all in favour of a fair game but I think once we use a sow motion replay in football most touches or contacts can be considered a foul.

It was shown that the average decision took 55 seconds not 5 minutes. So again you are completely overplaying it.

And whether its worth it or not. Obviously if you can stop a wrongly disallowed goal or get a sending off correct in a champions league final. Well yes it is absolutely worth 55 seconds.

 

[kouroux]

Sorry, it wasn’t worded the best. I can’t find a way to say what I mean.

If you read the rules and it says a shirt pull in the box is a foul, then that means it’s a foul obviously. Now we watch match of the day and see how much contact is in the box at a corner? How on earth do we determine what is enough for a pen and what is not in absolute 100% consistent way?
I know it’s pedantic but it seems that these will always be 50/50 calls that each var ref will make a different choice in any given day and with the benefit of multiple replays, there really shouldn’t be an excuse for.
That’s the same inconsistency that we face at the moment and I can’t see VAR changing that, only making it worse.

Something like that?

So far, VAR hasn't come close to making worse what you described. I have no issue with certain creating debates in terms of interpretation because it's ruled by humans so it's the nature of the game. I just don't want games decided by truly horrible decisions, the type of decisions that are blatantly wrong.
There will always be debates, VAR won't make anything worse in that aspect, I just don't see it.

 

[Zlatan 7]

So far, VAR hasn't come close to making worse what you described. I have no issue with certain creating debates in terms of interpretation because it's ruled by humans so it's the nature of the game. I just don't want games decided by truly horrible decisions, the type of decisions that are blatantly wrong.
There will always be debates, VAR won't make anything worse in that aspect, I just don't see it.

Yes, fair enough
I just felt/feel that decisions are going to be under more scrutiny when they can be viewed multiple times so we need a clear definition of what consists of said foul.

 

[kouroux]

Genuinely thats because like the arguments that involved people wanting mourinho to stay, there is absolutely no logic just idealistic hopes and wishes. Stuff like killing the spirit of the game, what are we going to talk about, fans will get bored etc etc. All these have been proven to be wrong and are just nonsense from a logistic point of view so don't be surprised when people are condescending to you. The reasons to bring in VR from a logic point of view far outweigh any of the idealistic hopes and dreams you guys talk of.

It doesn't compute to me that someone would rather see a goal scored thanks to a handball/offside not reviewed than reviewed. The spirit of the game is about winning games fairly and whatever can contribute in making things fairer is welcome

 

[mancan92]

It doesn't compute to me that someone would rather see a goal scored thanks to a handball/offside not reviewed than reviewed. The spirit of the game is about winning games fairly and whatever can contribute in making things fairer is welcome

Yeah from a logical point of view VAR will allow us to make better decisions and shown in other sports to be well implemented. So the reasons against it are purely idealistic and a bit illogical.

 

[kouroux]

Fewer dodge-ones than now is a reasonable argument I suppose.

But I also mainly have the perspective of not liking breaks in play.

You'd actually get more value from a bloke perched in a chair on each crossbar. If he did his job well & could be persuaded to actually do it.

Or automated offsides that worked 100% properly with a rule that is vaguely sensible (in it's consistent fairness & not varying wildly from week to week)

But we get fecking VAR for the benefit of American TV & the limited attention span of their watchers.

How does automated offside take into account if a player who is in offside position, doesn't touch the ball but still obstructs the keeper's view ?

 

[awop]

All right guys, keep going, @Zlatan 7 is almost one of ours Some of your concerns are somewhat understandable but they already apply in a VAR-less system. There is a topic litterally named after 4 or 5 referees in the league, it swings during the season between "Good performance, right call" to "brb have to go burn his house and make him move to Denmark". They can all have an off-day but VAR is supposed to give you a safety net. Sometimes that net will have a gaping hole in it and we will still end up with a farcical decision (see Fulham's pen). Perfection will never be attained, only odds improvement.

 

[Viral United]

I still think VAR should be used as challenge like they use in Field Hockey. It will be fast accurate and not too much waiting.

 

[montpelier]

How does automated offside take into account if a player who is in offside position, doesn't touch the ball but still obstructs the keeper's view ?

I don't know.

@awop done a great post there - we might be reaching a consensus after all

 

[montpelier]

It doesn't compute to me that someone would rather see a goal scored thanks to a handball/offside not reviewed than reviewed. The spirit of the game is about winning games fairly and whatever can contribute in making things fairer is welcome

I'd start a separate argument vs, this. Which I lose & isn't compelling & so on. But you need the less good team to have a chance, or there isn't any point in playing.

 

[Anustart89]

fecking stupid VAR letting a goal stand where the linesman would have disallowed it

Spoiler

 

[Carl]

Far from conclusive that offside replay. Unless you've got cameras looking right across the line it's impossible to really tell on those tight ones.

 

[Anustart89]

Far from conclusive that offside replay. Unless you've got cameras looking right across the line it's impossible to really tell on those tight ones.

Always tricky, but I can definitely see a future where every stadium has a rail with a camera that follows the last defender running along it.

 

[Moriarty]

Yeah from a logical point of view VAR will allow us to make better decisions and shown in other sports to be well implemented. So the reasons against it are purely idealistic and a bit illogical.

Oh, I love VAR when the finding goes our way. If it doesn't, it's an unwarranted intrusion into the beautiful game and can feck right off.

 

[ROFLUTION]

I am not lying

What I am in about is, and I repeat again, yes you have facts/stats that some decisions were made correctly. You do not have stats to show if its been a success as that is an opinion, Whether someone is happy to wait five minutes to get a possible subjective decision right or wrong is an opinion, not a fact.

The penalty in the fa cup yesterday, incorrect decision using VAR, the Barca game linked, iffy decision using VAR. it’s not clear cut. Again, in my opinion it’s not an outright success that people make it out to be.


@awop for it to be considered a success I’m not sure to be honest.

Not stopping the game for 5 minutes for an obvious decision would be a good start.
Consistency of use would be another point, when it is used? Some teams may benefit from it, some may not.
Clarity of the rules is another we need to go along side var, if everything can be pulled back and looked at in VAR we need to know what kind of contact consists a foul, everyone can agree tackles look worse in sow motion. We need to know what contact in the box is a penalty, a 1 second touch of a shirt to a 5 second pull of a shirt? Are either of these acceptable?

I just find that a lot of VAR decisions are just shifting the decision goalposts from a ref on the field to a ref in a room, is the delay worth it? we will still get different decisions to what we personally see on the screen.

I’m all in favour of a fair game but I think once we use a sow motion replay in football most touches or contacts can be considered a foul.

Good post. Consistency, speed and being able to still play physical are my main concerns too. I dont consider VAR an ultimate success yet neither. Really hope it wont take the tempo out of games.

 

[BeforeKeanetherewasRobson]

Always tricky, but I can definitely see a future where every stadium has a rail with a camera that follows the last defender running along it.

Like human version of greyhound racing?

 

[Zlatan 7]

More VAR fun today. I know I know, they’re still learning.

Neither manager happy with it tonight.
Poch dead against it, says that nobody in the la Ligue is happy with it, neither top of the table teams or lower table teams, so I guess that goes against the pro var fans in here saying it’s an outright success everywhere it’s been implemented.

And the offside call shows a mm onside from one view, half a yard offside from the other camera angle.
I hope they learn which replay they should use or maybe take an average

 

[Mb194dc]

VAR a shambles in England, what a surprise. Linesman flags and doesn't follow the play. Kane head offside

Never seen that in Spanish or Italian football.

 

[Rafaeldagold]

There can be nothing bad said against VAR. Those against it are just too uneducated. Technology is good duh.
It’s a success EVERYWHERE & everyone loves it.

 

[sullydnl]

"It took an age to clear up whether Kane had been level with the last man or otherwise but in the end, he was proved to have timed his run to perfection. There can be no arguing with the technology."

https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...carabao-cup-semi-final-first-leg-match-report

As soon as I read the bolded part I knew the caf would be arguing with the technology.

 

[Zlatan 7]

"It took an age to clear up whether Kane had been level with the last man or otherwise but in the end, he was proved to have timed his run to perfection. There can be no arguing with the technology."

https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...carabao-cup-semi-final-first-leg-match-report

As soon as I read the bolded part I knew the caf would be arguing with the technology.

True and made me laugh. I’m still going to bite though

I had to scroll through the link twice to find that quote and who said it, I think it was the reporter? Unless I missed something.
Who ever said it definitely missed the replay Sarri had seen though.

 

[cjj]

True and made me laugh. I’m still going to bite though

I had to scroll through the link twice to find that quote and who said it, I think it was the reporter? Unless I missed something.
Who ever said it definitely missed the replay Sarri had seen though.

Chelsea just saw what they wanted to - it was a still from a moment after the ball had been played, and when you've a player of Kane's ilk, most of his skill is in being able to peel a yard away from a defender in a fraction of a second.

They should definitely treat club prats with laptops in post-match interviews in the same category as when managers outright undermine the referee

 

[P-Ro]

Looks like what they used for the VAR was Kane's foot from a face on angle but his whole body looks offside from a more side on angle:

 

[Zlatan 7]

Chelsea just saw what they wanted to - it was a still from a moment after the ball had been played, and when you've a player of Kane's ilk, most of his skill is in being able to peel a yard away from a defender in a fraction of a second.

They should definitely treat club prats with laptops in post-match interviews in the same category as when managers outright undermine the referee

See @P-Ro post