VAR - Not the hero we want, the one we need

A decison that could have been given either way I think, as the argument in the matchday thread suggests.

FWIW I think there were at least two handballs given in this tournament that were even less clear-cut, so I wasn't surprised this was given.

I wish it hadn't been given though. I also wish the handball rule was less muddled.
 
Rather the referees have time to make a decision which var gives, than the referee guess.
I'm 100% for it.
 
Handball rules are too open to interpretation.

Got nothing to do with VAR. VAR gave the referee the chance to make a fairer and more objective decision as he clearly didn't see the incident in the first place. How this would ever be a bad thing, I have no idea.
 
Problem I see with VAR is that refs feel too inclined to give the penalty if they are called over. How many times has the ref actually stuck with his original opinion? Just once that I remember. It seems like they feel a bit of pressure to go along with it if the VAR team point something out.
 
Vitro said:
Handball rules are too open to interpretation.

Got nothing to do with VAR. VAR gave the referee the chance to make a fairer and more objective decision as he clearly didn't see the incident in the first place. How this would ever be a bad thing, I have no idea.
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This and this.
VAR is but a tool, the handball rule has been broken for eons.
 
Vitro said:
Handball rules are too open to interpretation.

Got nothing to do with VAR. VAR gave the referee the chance to make a fairer and more objective decision as he clearly didn't see the incident in the first place. How this would ever be a bad thing, I have no idea.
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Agreed.
 
Vitro said:
Handball rules are too open to interpretation.

Got nothing to do with VAR. VAR gave the referee the chance to make a fairer and more objective decision as he clearly didn't see the incident in the first place. How this would ever be a bad thing, I have no idea.
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Came to say this. The handball rule is too vague. Thing is I’m not sure how it can be altered. If all handballs become penalties, we’ll just have people smashing the ball into people’s hands deliberately.
 
Why do people keep saying ‘clear and obvious’. That’s the standard to overturn a decision made by ref.
Separately, a recommendation can be made if var officials think ref should review something or may have missed something, the decision will then still be his to make.

Var is not a problem and var didn’t make a decision. The technology worked perfectly and the fact that people are so split on the decision is evidence that the var team spotted a potential clear error. As fans a referee has made a decision based on repeated footage. Can’t ask more
 
Adisa said:
Rather the referees have time to make a decision which var gives, than the referee guess.
I'm 100% for it.
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Exactly. Idiots saying “feck you var”, ‘var farce’ etc are just jumping on a narrative without applying logic
 
SER19 said:
Why do people keep saying ‘clear and obvious’. That’s the standard to overturn a decision made by ref.
Separately, a recommendation can be made if var officials think ref should review something or may have missed something, the decision will then still be his to make.

Var is not a problem and var didn’t make a decision. The technology worked perfectly and the fact that people are so split on the decision is evidence that the var team spotted a potential clear error. As fans a referee has made a decision based on repeated footage. Can’t ask more
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He took a long time to make his decision, and went back once to watch again, suggesting it wasn't clear and obvious to him as well.
 
Bubz27 said:
It was a pen. He moved his arm and opened his palm.

Croatia have benefitted from lots of favourable decisions throughout this world cup. Couldn't care less about a perceived injustice.
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Exactly. I don't understand why people get so stubborn when they don't know the rules. You can't jump with your hand up and moving towards the ball like that. The rules are unclear, the guidance given to the referees is not. They've been giving those all tournament.
 
justboy68 said:
Problem I see with VAR is that refs feel too inclined to give the penalty if they are called over. How many times has the ref actually stuck with his original opinion? Just once that I remember. It seems like they feel a bit of pressure to go along with it if the VAR team point something out.
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Yes, the pressure is to give the penalty.
 
The other point is that we've seen a few handball decisions like that given this tournament, at least two of which were harsher calls imo, which suggests that this is the way FIFA want the handball rule to be interpreted. It's been pretty consistently punished in this WC.
 
Hand ball or not, it certainly wasn’t a clear and obvious error. So the way VAR is setup or the way it’s being used has the potential to ruin this final. Joke.
 
not a penalty - it only hits his hand as the Frenchman is his eyeline of the ball missed his header - zero time to react in his jump

if that's the case the Pogba holding of Mandzukic was more of a penalty
 
kouroux said:
The rules are too open and too harsh IMHO. They take "intent" into account as well as "unnatural hand position". I mean it's difficult to have your hand positioned "naturally" when you are jumping. Shit can happen
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I think this is another thing people misinterpret. To me if you're jumping then your hands being up and out is entirely natural, but you often seen freeze frame images with people pointing to "unnatural" hand position as if your arms should always be by your side no matter what you're doing.
 
Sigma said:
He took a long time to make his decision, and went back once to watch again, suggesting it wasn't clear and obvious to him as well.
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I think it’s fair he takes his time and watched all available angles. For what it’s worth I wouldn’t have given it, but can accept the decision sooner than had he just guessed.
 
Minimalist said:
Poor refereeing that decision.
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justboy68 said:
Problem I see with VAR is that refs feel too inclined to give the penalty if they are called over. How many times has the ref actually stuck with his original opinion? Just once that I remember. It seems like they feel a bit of pressure to go along with it if the VAR team point something out.
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Exactly this.

Not a penalty for me. Looks like the ref was looking for a reason to give one tho.
 
Rado_N said:
I think this is another thing people misinterpret. To me if you're jumping then your hands being up and out is entirely natural, but you often seen freeze frame images with people pointing to "unnatural" hand position as if your arms should always be by your side no matter what you're doing.
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I don't disagree. This is why I think the handball rule needs a revamp and more restriction because when you leave it so open for interpretation, it's easy to give pens. I mean by the letter of the rule, the pen is valid but I will always think it was very harsh.
 
kouroux said:
I don't disagree. This is why I think the handball rule needs a revamp and more restriction because when you leave it so open for interpretation, it's easy to give pens. I mean by the letter of the rule, the pen is valid but I will always think it was very harsh.
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Is it? I still don't see any way that it can be judged as being deliberate.
 
Sigma said:
He took a long time to make his decision, and went back once to watch again, suggesting it wasn't clear and obvious to him as well.
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He has a few different factors to consider though, like the position of the arm, the distance the ball travelled and the pace the ball travelled at. I think (though I might be totally wrong) part of the delay was him looking at it at both normal speed and slow-mo, one to determined the arm position and the other to determine the pace of the ball?
 
justboy68 said:
Problem I see with VAR is that refs feel too inclined to give the penalty if they are called over. How many times has the ref actually stuck with his original opinion? Just once that I remember. It seems like they feel a bit of pressure to go along with it if the VAR team point something out.
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I don't think we can really say that. Usually, when the referee goes to watch the replay on the screen it's because there's a blatant mistake that's been made.
The hand moved towards the ball, and under the current guidelines the referees seem to have, whether we agree with it or not, it's a penalty.
 
They should take the word 'deliberate' out of the rule book, and replace it with the words 'unnecessary' and 'unnatural'.
 
The ref seemed to be watching it all in frames and slow mo if it’s the same as what we seen. Totally different to what happened in real time, Umtiti was half yard in front of him and looked to be getting a flick on with the ball zipped in, so peresic gambled on him not getting the flick in and handball it? No chance.
 
kouroux said:
It can easily. "Unnatural hand position" I mean, once you use this tool, you can justify it. Still harsh for me.
I have no doubt it was the logic used there
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That's just a metric by which to try and determine whether it was deliberate, and when jumping it's entirety natural for your arms to be out like that as we said above.
 
Rado_N said:
Is it? I still don't see any way that it can be judged as being deliberate.
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Other handballs that were even less deliberate looking were given in this tournament too though, decisions this call is consistent with. Which suggests to me that FIFA want it interpreted this way, even if we don't agree with it.
 
The 'application' of VAR is still part of VAR. With less excuse for getting it wrong, really.

I don't think it should act as a get-out clause for the system.

Especially where the system tends towards giving possibly the wrong call on a play.

TV penalty all day long, but not quite so much in 'real time' via the normal footy etiquette interpretation.
 
kouroux said:
I don't disagree. This is why I think the handball rule needs a revamp and more restriction because when you leave it so open for interpretation, it's easy to give pens. I mean by the letter of the rule, the pen is valid but I will always think it was very harsh.
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You're correct. Football has always been slow to implement changes and this incident should prompt a change in how handball is judged. I don't believe that the referees at this World Cup all believe that this was a penalty without a doubt (can't have doubt if you're changing your on-field decision) and if referees can't agree that means the rules aren't clear.
 
Zlatan 7 said:
Hand ball or not, it certainly wasn’t a clear and obvious error. So the way VAR is setup or the way it’s being used has the potential to ruin this final. Joke.
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Well considering the first goal was the result of an even more dubious refereeing decision (that may have been avoided by the use of VAR) I would say the blame lies more with human error than with VAR.
 
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