Venezuela – socialist paradise on the verge of collapse

PedroMendez

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100%.

But what about a partial economic centralism? ;)

We are in the year 2017, its a totally different world from the one your socialist thinkers lived on.

Instead, what about using common sense and just try to imitate those countries and societies where things are working good?

feck concepts that are there only to confuse people. Only facts matter.
Both heritage and fraser foundation, who are surly pro-capitalism, rank all the countries you named high up in their economic-freedom rankings. NZ is frequently top3, Australia top10 and the Nordic countries are roughly on par with the USA.
Of course we should look at countries, that are more successful than others, and try to learn what makes them "tick". The Nordic countries are certainly worth looking at. Yet when one doesn't have any ideological priors, you look at all countries that are successful and not just those that confirm ones biases. That a bit off topic so.

Back to Venezuela: Chavez & maduro did many things that are common for regimes of all form and colour in LA. Stuff like corruption, cronyism, authoritarian leadership, rent-seeking, human right abuses, populism. All of that explains bad government but non of it can explain the extraordinary economic catastrophy that is going on. Economic warfare from foreign nations (USA) can't be a reason either. Why? Because all rhetoric aside the USA and Venezuela never stopped trading. Its fairly ironic that maduro&Chavez always blamed the USA for all problems but never "put their money where their mouth is".
The price of oil is undoubtedly part of the problem, but when you have less food than active warzones like iraq, something else has to be going on as well.

To quote Romero:
In other words, while under puntofijismo in its glory days there was a coalition of the middle and working classes, fighting together to create a system of redistribution and political participation, under chavismo we are contemplating the disappearance of what little was left of the middle and industrial working classes, (...)
That was written in 2000; so that's not hindsight. People were actively warning since the very first days, that a economic policy of nationalisation, centralisation, erosion of property rights and massive unsustainable spending paid by oil-rents is going to devestating the country. Chavez and maduro proudly and openly destroyed the small (productive) middle class of the country. This form of class-warfare was their policy and they frequently said exactly that. Nothing of that was hidden. All of this is also firmly grounded in traditional socialist ideology.

Now we have to come back to labels even if you don't like it. For 15 years self-declared western socialists like Corbyn, Bernie, melenchon, Sarah Wagenknecht, Chomsky - I could continue this list indefinitely - praised specifically Venezuela for its economic and social policies. What does that tell us about their understanding of these issues? Is there any introspective about this mistake? No, they just deny that their ideas have anything to do with the problem. That's a problem. It is not smear to say that classic socialism is nothing short of a sure way to misery and poverty. That doesn't mean that social-democracy (which respects property rights) or other left ideologies are bad. That's a different discussion.
 

Javi

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This Venezuela praise thing from left-wingers is really a strange one. Perhaps it can be better understood as a reflex vs having to deal with the ever-coming objection of «has this ever worked?» They were so desperate for an example that they didn't look twice. That's no excuse though, mind.
 

Sweet Square

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True, but i wont judge intentions. Results speak for themselves. Maybe they had good intentions in the beginning, but it's not working (no matter the reason, even if its because economic warfare by the economic right or US).
They just took over a universal concept to fool people and make them believe into the dream.
But anyway yes Venezuela needs to find a away out this disaster.

:lol:
 

berbatrick

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Why not a centrally planned economy where the job of economic calculation is handed over to information-gathering experts — democratically accountable ones, hopefully. We actually have historical examples of this kind of system, though of course they were far from democratic. Centrally planned economies registered some accomplishments: when Communism came to poor, rural countries like Bulgaria or Romania they were able to industrialize quickly, wipe out illiteracy, raise education levels, modernize gender roles, and eventually ensure that most people had basic housing and health care. The system could also raise per capita production pretty quickly from, say, the level of today’s Laos to that of today’s Bosnia; or from the level of Yemen to that of Egypt.

But beyond that, the system ran into trouble. Here a prefatory note is in order: Because the neoliberal Right has habit of measuring a society’s success by the abundance of its consumer goods, the radical left is prone to slip into a posture of denying this sort of thing is politically relevant at all. This is a mistake. The problem with full supermarket shelves is that they’re not enough — not that they’re unwelcome or trivial. The citizens of Communist countries experienced the paucity, shoddiness and uniformity of their goods not merely as inconveniences; they experienced them as violations of their basic rights. As an anthropologist of Communist Hungary writes, “goods of state-socialist production . . . came to be seen as evidence of the failure of a state-socialist-generated modernity, but more importantly, of the regime’s negligent and even inhumane treatment of its subjects.”

And at an aggregate level, the best estimates show the Communist countries steadily falling behind Western Europe: East German per capita income, which had been slightly higher than that of West German regions before World War II, never recovered in relative terms from the postwar occupation years and continually lost ground from 1960 onwards. By the late 1980s it stood at less than 40% of the West German level.

Unlike an imaginary economy with no states or markets, the Communist economies did have an economic calculation mechanism. It just didn’t work as advertised. What was the problem?

According to many Western economists, the answer was simple: the mechanism was too clumsy. In this telling, the problem had to do with the “invisible hand,” the phrase Adam Smith had used only in passing, but which later writers commandeered to reinterpret his insights about the role of prices, supply, and demand in allocating goods. Smith had originally invoked the price system to explain why market economies display a semblance of order at all, rather than chaos — why, for example, any desired commodity can usually be found conveniently for sale, even though there is no central authority seeing to it that it be produced.

But in the late nineteenth century, Smith’s ideas were formalized by the founders of neoclassical economics, a tradition whose explanatory ambitions were far grander. They wrote equations representing buyers and sellers as vectors of supply and demand: when supply exceeded demand in a particular market, the price dropped; when demand exceeded supply, it rose. And when supply and demand were equal, the market in question was said to be in “equilibrium” and the price was said to be the “equilibrium price.”

As for the economy as a whole, with its numberless, interlocking markets, it was not until 1954 that the future Nobel laureates Kenneth Arrow and Gérard Debreu made what was hailed as a momentous discovery in the theory of “general equilibrium” — a finding that, in the words of James Tobin, “lies at the very core of the scientific basis of economic theory.” They proved mathematically that under specified assumptions, free markets were guaranteed to generate a set of potential equilibrium prices that could balance supply and demand in all markets simultaneously — and the resulting allocation of goods would be, in one important sense, “optimal”: no one could be made better off without making someone else worse off.

The moral that could be extracted from this finding was that prices were not just a tool market economies used to create a degree of order and rationality. Rather, the prices that markets generated — if those markets were free and untrammeled — were optimal, and resulted in a maximally efficient allocation of resources. If the Communist system wasn’t working, then, it was because the clumsy and fallible mechanism of planning couldn’t arrive at this optimal solution.

This narrative resonated with the deepest instincts of the economics profession. The little just-so stories of economics textbooks explaining why minimum wages or rent controls ultimately make everyone worse off are meant to show that supply and demand dictate prices by a higher logic that mortals defy at their peril. These stories are “partial equilibrium” analyses — they only show what happens in an individual market artificially cut off from all the markets surrounding it. What Arrow and Debreu had supplied, the profession believed, was proof that this logic extends to the economy as a whole, with all its interlocking markets: a general equilibrium theory. In other words, it was proof that in the end, free-market prices will guide the economy as a whole to its optimum.

Thus, when Western economists descended on the former Soviet bloc after 1989 to help direct the transition out of socialism, their central mantra, endlessly repeated, was “Get Prices Right.”

Around the time of the Soviet collapse, the economist Peter Murrell published an article in the Journal of Economic Perspectives reviewing empirical studies of efficiency in the socialist planned economies. These studies consistently failed to support the neoclassical analysis: virtually all of them found that by standard neoclassical measures of efficiency, the planned economies performed as well or better than market economies.

Then Murrell examined studies of allocative efficiency: the degree to which inputs are allocated among firms in a way that maximizes total output. One paper found that a fully optimal reallocation of inputs would increase total Soviet output by only 3%-4%. Another found that raising Soviet efficiency to US standards would increase its GNP by all of 2%. A third produced a range of estimates as low as 1.5%. The highest number found in any of the Soviet studies was 10%. As Murrell notes, these were hardly amounts “likely to encourage the overthrow of a whole socio-economic system.” (Murell wasn’t the only economist to notice this anomaly: an article titled “Why Is the Soviet Economy Allocatively Efficient?” appeared in Soviet Studiesaround the same time.)

Two German microeconomists tested the “widely accepted” hypothesis that “prices in a planned economy are arbitrarily set exchange ratios without any relation to relative scarcities or economic valuations [whereas] capitalist market prices are close to equilibrium levels.” They employed a technique that analyzes the distribution of an economy’s inputs among industries to measure how far the pattern diverges from that which would be expected to prevail under perfectly optimal neoclassical prices. Examining East German and West German data from 1987, they arrived at an “astonishing result”: the divergence was 16.1% in the West and 16.5% in the East, a trivial difference. The gap in the West’s favor, they wrote, was greatest in the manufacturing sectors, where something like competitive conditions may have existed. But in the bulk of the West German economy — which was then being hailed globally as Modell Deutschland — monopolies, taxes, subsidies, and so on actually left its price structure further from the “efficient” optimum than in the moribund Communist system behind the Berlin Wall.
https://www.jacobinmag.com/2012/12/the-red-and-the-black/
 

PedroMendez

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I thought that I've heard it all, but labour is the gift that keeps on giving. Crazy ken (I know that he is suspended):
One of the things that Chávez did when he came to power, he didn’t kill all the oligarchs.
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...gstone-venezuela-crisis-hugo-chavez-oligarchs


*My ideology tells me to kill people because they are rich* isn't that lovely? Entirely reasonable approach. So much compassion. :lol: but yes, obviously that has nothing to do with crazy-pants ideas.



@berbatrick this article presented without actually explaining context, content and review is quite misleading to say the least.
 

Adisa

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Found this funny.
Not contributed much to this thread because we all know where this argument always ends up.
My take is that it further proves the stupidity of the far left or far right thinking they have all the answers.
It's not logical.
 

Mciahel Goodman

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Here is an extremely long but painfully detailed takedown of the pro-chavez narrative that was peddled by his European left-wing supporters. Any Brit should read this.

https://historyjack.com/2017/07/07/starvation-and-silence-british-left-and-venezuela/amp/
Too biased for me to read personally. It's an op ed piece painfully starved with credible references.

You seem more concerned with laughing about the collapse of a state and at the people who hoped it would work than with the actual turmoil of the state itself.
 

Mciahel Goodman

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I should note that I did read it. It's a centre right (slightly right wing) author of a blog referring to arguments people had and referencing them as if they represented world opinion.
 

PedroMendez

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Too biased for me to read personally. It's an op ed piece painfully starved with credible references.

You seem more concerned with laughing about the collapse of a state and at the people who hoped it would work than with the actual turmoil of the state itself.
I guess HRW is not a credible source anymore.

I have little interest in just posting links to "xyz" happened. That's important but anyone who reads news should understand roughly what's going on.
It is much more important to explain why this is happening to avoid the same mistakes. You can be sure that if I'd argue primarily with people from Venezuela, Latin america, the US or Germany or people with different political preferences I'd talk about this from a different point of view.

What happened in Venezuela is directly linked to specific ideological believes. Neo-caudillismo and "economic centralism" (to avoid the evil s-word, that seems to be so upsetting to many here) are two of them.

Talking about the pitfalls of Neo-caudillismo is all fun, but it doesn't exist in Europe and has no supporters here. The cultural underpinnings in Europe are vastly different.
Economic centralism sadly has still many admirers and there are important political parties who promote a vision that has overlaps with what happened in Venezuela.

Sadly when it comes to venezuela parts of the European left repeats the same mistake that they committed many times over the last 70 years. 1) that has absolutely nothing to do with our ideology 2) whataboutism 3) conspiracy theories/antiamericnism.

Thats particularly relevant considering that corbyn committed all these sins, while being portrayed as saint& saviour.

To answer ad-hominum with as hominum: I am not laughing about anyone; living in Latin america i am confronted with the horrible consequences of misguided ideology almost every day. You and your ilk seem more worried about what another failed socialist experiment does to the global image of your beloved ideology, instead of caring about the well-being of humans. Apparently ideology trump's everything. Sadly that has real-world consequences: due to obscurification to defend ones ideological priors, people repeat the same mistake over and over again.
 

Mciahel Goodman

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I guess HRW is not a credible source anymore.
Has it ever been? It's been funded by US interest groups directly or indirectly for years. Its bias in all matters Venezuela is well documented.

I have little interest in just posting links to "xyz" happened. That's important but anyone who reads news should understand roughly what's going on.
It is much more important to explain why this is happening to avoid the same mistakes. You can be sure that if I'd argue primarily with people from Venezuela, Latin america, the US or Germany or people with different political preferences I'd talk about this from a different point of view.
The problem I have is that you seem to position yourself as some kind sentry guarding against the ills of socialism. Your opinions are fine, all opinions are, but even the title of this thread is loaded with bias.

What happened in Venezuela is directly linked to specific ideological believes. Neo-caudillismo and "economic centralism" (to avoid the evil s-word, that seems to be so upsetting to many here) are two of them.
I don't disagree. Especially in relation to centralism.

Economic centralism sadly has still many admirers and there are important political parties who promote a vision that has overlaps with what happened in Venezuela.
It wasn't all bad. Not at first. Turned to shit, but there were plenty success stories from Chavez' early reign. Not to say that a capitalist system wouldn't have done a better job, though.

Sadly when it comes to venezuela parts of the European left repeats the same mistake that they committed many times over the last 70 years. 1) that has absolutely nothing to do with our ideology 2) whataboutism 3) conspiracy theories/antiamericnism.
This is the problem I have. You conflate commentators who aren't even left wing with an imagined left. Owen Jones for example, is centre left. Which means liberal. He's the main target in this thread for some reason.


Thats particularly relevant considering that corbyn committed all these sins, while being portrayed as saint& saviour.
You'll have to elaborate further here, but I'm not averse to criticisms of Corbyn.

To answer ad-hominum with as hominum: I am not laughing about anyone; living in Latin america i am confronted with the horrible consequences of misguided ideology almost every day. You and your ilk seem more worried about what another failed socialist experiment does to the global image of your beloved ideology, instead of caring about the well-being of humans. Apparently ideology trump's everything. Sadly that has real-world consequences: due to obscurification to defend ones ideological priors, people repeat the same mistake over and over again.
It really wasn't intended as an ad hominem attack, but it's a little difficult to address you directly without use of pronouns.

Anyway, a quick search of my username with the terms Chavez or Venezuela will tell you that I have never supported Chavez's reforms, and certainly not the ridiculous mismanagement of the economy since his death. So please, don't lump me in with some imagined socialist brigade of apologists. I studied history for years, so I tend to value actual scholarship over opinion; or at least, scholarship which isn't conflated with opinion.


But, in all honesty, this thread could be re-titled "Let's all laugh at Venezuela's collapse and the people who hoped it would work out better than it has", and it wouldn't be any less descriptive of the content inside.
 

Nucks

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Are there any actual examples of socialism or communism in action according to you?
Technically, communism as defined by Marx, isn't even possible yet. Communism as Marx described it, is a post-capitalist concept. As in, a country has to go through the entire cycle of capitalism, and then and only then is it ready for a communist system.

For reasons he couldn't have possibly forseen, Marx is probably right. At some point, nanotechnology and robotics will remove the need for humans to labor for their own survival. A very small number of jobs will exist related to entertainment, and the design of the programs which build and maintain the technology that runs our society.

So what is going to happen in 100 years or so, when global employment rates are potentially in the single digit percentage wise? Either the corporations/governments that control the means of production provide for everyone, or they don't.

If they do, it's a socialist utopia. If they don't, its dystopian armageddon.
 

PedroMendez

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Social media rumours say that there are revolts in three different areas/locations. Something is going on but it is very hard to get an accurate picture yet.


Edit: getting rid of Luisa Ortega could have been the trigger for these events.
 
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PedroMendez

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The little trustworthy info there is indicates that it's over. Various soldiers got arrested. My first impression is that this was a very small group, hoping that others would join. Probably a rather desperate attempt, that will just give the regime further justification to crack down.
http://www.ntn24america.com/video/enfrentamineto-entre-militares-vzla-corresponsal-148904


+ Mercosul/mercosur suspended their membership
+ Some smaller client nations in central America prevent a more comprehensive and unified responds. It would be useful to give them a kick in the arse.
+ Usa considers sanctions against their oil industry which is more or less their last way to get foreign currency. That's a doubled edged sword. It would hurt the regime but also the common people.
 

PedroMendez

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So a bit more infos are coming out. A small group (~20) of people under the leadership of a former national guard captain attacked this military post, stole weapons and are now on the run. Caguaripano was essentially charged for treason in 2014 for opposing the regime when crushing protests. He was in hiding (some connect him to another failed coup attempt in the past but that could be propaganda). So today probably wasn't an uprising from within the security forces (military or national guard), but a small paramilitary force. All that is a fairly plausible explanation why it had so little impact.

No idea what happened in other locations. There is a Twitter account of this guy, but I haven't figured out of it is real.
 

carvajal

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this new assembly is a point of no return.
the attorney Ortega is out and now Maduro will go for some majors who didn't stop the protests.
For what I heard from venezolanos Maduro controls very well the army although with the situation being so chaotic...
I don't understand why they arrested Leopoldo López to let him free some days later.
 

PedroMendez

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I don't understand why they arrested Leopoldo López to let him free some days later
A mix of harassment and retaliation for US actions/comments. Yet jailing him long term would make them look bad. House arrest does the job (prevent him from campaigning) without too much negative press.

______
Odebrecht, one of the biggest brasilian companies paid for the campaign of both sides last election to ensure that they continue to get favorable treatment regardless of the outcome. Brazilian prosecutors found that out during the Javo lato investigation. Imo they should be labeled as criminal enterprise, but that's LA in a nutshell.
 

PedroMendez

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https://www.caracaschronicles.com/2017/08/07/a-non-debate-on-the-defense-of-the-constitution/
Only the last three paragraphs are interesting. Good example that shows that the opposition struggles to come together. That's a problem for quite a while now. Different strategies, different goals, rivalry &drama.

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http://www.politico.com/magazine/st...-die-venezuela-implosion-hannah-dreier-215467

Interview with Hanna dreier, who is great.

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http://www.elmundo.es/internacional/2017/08/06/5985eb6f268e3e02128b457f.html
 

berbatrick

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Not sure how reliable this is but worth posting


TBF based on other headlines that looks like a govt news website, though they seem to be simply quoting a tweet, so...*shrugs*.
 

PedroMendez

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So you quote a deluded idiot, who refers to government propaganda to make a point that is completely insane (regardless of ones political preferences) and you don't even understand it. Why am I not surprised:lol:

 

Sweet Square

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So you quote a deluded idiot, who refers to government propaganda to make a point that is completely insane (regardless of ones political preferences) and you don't even understand it. Why am I not surprised:lol:

He is a associate professor at Drexel University and has written about activities in Venezuela for some years now.

Anyway you can just click on the ignore button and you don't have to see my posts, sadly I can't do the same since you started this thread.
 

MTF

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He is a associate professor at Drexel University and has written about activities in Venezuela for some years now.

Anyway you can just click on the ignore button and you don't have to see my posts, sadly I can't do the same since you started this thread.
"Decolonizing Dialectics"? (one of his book titles). That's like a 2-for-1 promo on words with over 90% share of use in academic social studies fields.
 

PedroMendez

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There is a certain level of stupidty that deserves to get called out. Anyone who still covers not just for the comprehensive economic failures but also for the authoritarian overreach is either lacking any connection to reality or is part of the regime. Considering that he is not in Venezuela, he is probably a deluded crackpot. Enough people in academia (well...in the humanities) are.

Even the regional leaders, who were willing to isolate the USA over the Cuban policy are actually trying to put pressure on Venezuela - well at least those that are not part of Venezuela's imperialistic project (the irony behind this is strong; country that has anti-imperialism as official policy acts imperialistic). But yes..."his book is good"... surely very objective. Some people are really something else.
 

Sweet Square

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There is a certain level of stupidty that deserves to get called out. Anyone who still covers not just for the comprehensive economic failures but also for the authoritarian overreach is either lacking any connection to reality or is part of the regime. Considering that he is not in Venezuela, he is probably a deluded crackpot. Enough people in academia (well...in the humanities) are.

Even the regional leaders, who were willing to isolate the USA over the Cuban policy are actually trying to put pressure on Venezuela - well at least those that are not part of Venezuela's imperialistic project (the irony behind this is strong; country that has anti-imperialism as official policy acts imperialistic). But yes..."his book is good"... surely very objective. Some people are really something else.
:lol: Jesus!

Mate it's only a football forum.
 

United_We_Stand

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It should be on the verge of collapse, becsuse of the collapse of oil prices.
With $50 or $60 or even $70 a barrell as the new normal for oil prices, the ruling party/regime in Caracas will struggle to keep its socialist programs afloat.
 

4bars

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is ridiculous. Bolivar fuerte is 30.000 in the black market. When I was there 3 years ago, it was 25.

I have 2 friends. One convinced of Hugo Chavez was a new Messiah and Maduro the next prophet. He flew a fled a few months ago to Ireland because he couldn't take it anymore.

The other survives there thanks that he can get by doing jobs in university.

And I truely belive that Chavez did amazing things and despicable things equally, but is just appalling the point that they are right now