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golden_blunder

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That's kind of what I meant. It feels like the goal posts move a bit with you regarding Lindelöf.

You first said:



...but now you're talking about the start of next season. Wonder how many good matches it would take for you to admit that he's quite a decent player and apart from City you'd struggle to name a better 3rd CB in the league.
I’m kinda saying the same thing there no? I’m saying that he could revert to the form I criticize him for in the last few games but if not then we will have to see if he carries in with the good form into the new season or not? Obviously I have my doubts
 

top1whoisman

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I’m kinda saying the same thing there no? I’m saying that he could revert to the form I criticize him for in the last few games but if not then we will have to see if he carries in with the good form into the new season or not? Obviously I have my doubts
To me it looks like he's improved under the new coaching staff and even though it doesn't explain everything, playing with either Varane, Martínez or Shaw instead of Maguire helps a lot. I think this is the norm now, I have no problem criticising him when he has a bad game.
 

criticalanalysis

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Which 3rd CB in the league is better then?
That's such a reductive and silly comparison to make in the first place. You would bloody hope our 3rd choice defender is going to be 'better' than the vast majority of other clubs'....3rd choice defenders; I mean just think about that for one moment.

That specific benchmark completely ignores the fact Utd are fairly unique in the league when it comes to resources, ambitions, squad depth and playing style. The correct question should be 1) 'is he actually good enough for Utd?' and if you really wanted to make a comparison, 'how does he compare to other defenders in the league?' i.e all things that he should be judged on his entire career here.

To make it 'fair', this would mean for example looking at non-traditional top 4 clubs' first choice defenders. You look at the defenders of clubs like Brighton, Villa, Spurs, Everton, Newcastle, heck even Palace etc and also the rotational squad members of clubs like Liverpool and City, then he does not compare favourably at all. However, if you want to extrapolate his form of again, the last 10 games, of which there has been some poor performances conveniently ignored and say 'hey this version of Lindelof is awesome and deserves our undying support, let's just ignore the past 6 years due to Mourinho, Ole, Maguire, other teammates and coaches where he's heroically curbed his own performances and ability because of instructions', then sure yeah there's no ambiguity at all about his quality.

Like I said, he has plenty to prove, of which recently so far so good all things considered but there's not a lot of credit in his bank and we should be looking at beyond him/his place in the squad, if it allows in the summer.
 
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Cassidy

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Sell him whilst hes had a good run of form. Replace him with a younger player with higher ceiling like Ndicka for free.
 

top1whoisman

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That's such a reductive and silly comparison to make in the first place. You would bloody hope our 3rd choice defender is going to be 'better' than the vast majority of other clubs'....3rd choice defenders; I mean just think about that for one moment.

That specific benchmark completely ignores the fact Utd are fairly unique in the league when it comes to resources, ambitions, squad depth and playing style. The correct question should be 1) 'is he actually good enough for Utd?' and if you really wanted to make a comparison, 'how does he compare to other defenders in the league?' i.e all things that he should be judged on his entire career here.

To make it 'fair', this would mean for example looking at non-traditional top 4 clubs' first choice defenders. You look at the defenders of clubs like Brighton, Villa, Spurs, Everton, Newcastle, heck even Palace etc and also the rotational squad members of clubs like Liverpool and City, then he does not compare favourably at all. However, if you want to extrapolate his form of again, the last 10 games, of which there has been some poor performances conveniently ignored and say 'hey this version of Lindelof is awesome and deserves our undying support, let's just ignore the past 6 years due to Mourinho, Ole, Maguire, other teammates and coaches where he's heroically curbed his own performances and ability because of instructions', then sure yeah there's no ambiguity at all about his quality.

Like I said, he has plenty to prove, of which recently so far so good all things considered but there's not a lot of credit in his bank and we should be looking at beyond him/his place in the squad, if it allows in the summer.
Colwill and Dunk are better than Lindelöf.

Not sure if Konsa or Mings are better.

Romero is better but the rest are definitely worse.

Lindelöf would be Everton’s starting CB.

Botman is better than Lindelöf.

Guéhi and Andersen maybe a bit better.

Not sure if Matip is better than Lindelöf.

City is the only team with a better 3rd choice CB, in my opinion.

I’d say he definitely is good enough to be a squad player here. Sure it’d be nice to have four CBs on the level of Licha, but that’s unrealistic. It’s actually very difficult to find and identify players who are good enough for a club aiming for a title yet happy to sit on the bench. Add experience and leadership qualities and it’s even harder. I’m interested in who you would replace him with?

I don’t think he’s been shit for the past six years either.
 

top1whoisman

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Agreed. Can’t think of any others.

And even he wants out. Why? Because he doesn’t play as much as he wants. It’s just not that easy to find the ideal 3rd CB as that’s the position where rotation is used the least.
 
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criticalanalysis

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Colwill and Dunk are better than Lindelöf.

Not sure if Konsa or Mings are better.

Romero is better but the rest are definitely worse.

Lindelöf would be Everton’s starting CB.

Botman is better than Lindelöf.

Guéhi and Andersen maybe a bit better.

Not sure if Matip is better than Lindelöf.

City is the only team with a better 3rd choice CB, in my opinion.

I’d say he definitely is good enough to be a squad player here. Sure it’d be nice to have four CBs on the level of Licha, but that’s unrealistic. It’s actually very difficult to find and identify players who are good enough for a club aiming for a title yet happy to sit on the bench. Add experience and leadership qualities and it’s even harder. I’m interested in who you would replace him with?

I don’t think he’s been shit for the past six years either.
Konsa is a better prospect and has performed to a higher standard from a younger age imo. Matip has been a key figure for some of Liverpool's best seasons, so that's not really debatable. I'm not here to compare them one-to-one but my point still stands, he doesn't compare favourably at all if you look at everyone's body of work. You only need to look at the Kim thread for suggestions with free agents like Ndicka also available. Lindelof has plenty of experience but little leadership so I won't put that in his favour.

As for the bolded, that's not true and it's the exception to the rule in most cases as long as your recruitment and pay package are in line.

I personally think Lindelof has been inconsistent and overall a disappointment in his 6 years here. Everything that he has shown in the past 10 games, he has also shown in the past 6 years but in very small and isolated patches of form and games. My biggest issue with him is not perhaps his overall quality, it's the lack of application of his ability on his own terms. It's good to have technique, composure, reading of the game and decent athletic ability but if you don't use it consistently, then can you call it a quality?

If he is here next year and continues to perform when called upon, then fine, I will appreciate this seemingly new trajectory of his career. As it stands though, he's not some underrated, gem squad player that we possess, in fact he's very dispensable just like Fred (who I like), McT, Elanga etc. It all depends on the transfer funds available and the recruitment team.

Assuming Maguire leaves, relying on Varane, Lindelof and Martinez (with Shaw deputising as well) next season is very risky because history tell us, that our Frenchmen will not last a whole season full of games. Lindelof and Martinez/Shaw as a first choice pairing is teetering on a very fine line of adequate quality imo. Given what we've seen of Lindelof from the past 6 years, I'd rather we go for a step up prospect like Kim, who raises our overall quality and also offers us a different dimension with his physical qualities, which can allow for a genuine higher line as he has good speed.
 

top1whoisman

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Konsa is a better prospect and has performed to a higher standard from a younger age imo. Matip has been a key figure for some of Liverpool's best seasons, so that's not really debatable. I'm not here to compare them one-to-one but my point still stands, he doesn't compare favourably at all if you look at everyone's body of work. You only need to look at the Kim thread for suggestions with free agents like Ndicka also available. Lindelof has plenty of experience but little leadership so I won't put that in his favour.

As for the bolded, that's not true and it's the exception to the rule in most cases as long as your recruitment and pay package are in line.

I personally think Lindelof has been inconsistent and overall a disappointment in his 6 years here. Everything that he has shown in the past 10 games, he has also shown in the past 6 years but in very small and isolated patches of form and games. My biggest issue with him is not perhaps his overall quality, it's the lack of application of his ability on his own terms. It's good to have technique, composure, reading of the game and decent athletic ability but if you don't use it consistently, then can you call it a quality?

If he is here next year and continues to perform when called upon, then fine, I will appreciate this seemingly new trajectory of his career. As it stands though, he's not some underrated, gem squad player that we possess, in fact he's very dispensable just like Fred (who I like), McT, Elanga etc. It all depends on the transfer funds available and the recruitment team.

Assuming Maguire leaves, relying on Varane, Lindelof and Martinez (with Shaw deputising as well) next season is very risky because history tell us, that our Frenchmen will not last a whole season full of games. Lindelof and Martinez/Shaw as a first choice pairing is teetering on a very fine line of adequate quality imo. Given what we've seen of Lindelof from the past 6 years, I'd rather we go for a step up prospect like Kim, who raises our overall quality and also offers us a different dimension with his physical qualities, which can allow for a genuine higher line as he has good speed.
There’s no guarantees at how Ndicka would do in PL. We’ll see how highly he really is rated when we see what club eventually picks him up. He’s probably not looking to move to a club to be the bench option anyway. Not many are.

Why would a starter for Serie A winning Napoli move to United to be the third choice?

I agree that we need to find Varane’s successor soon.

I think him being the Swedish captain suggests he has some leadership qualities. Seems to communicate much more on the pitch than many of our other experienced players.

If the bolded is not true, why is the treble-winning City struggling to keep hold of Laporte? Most teams rotate very little in CB positions, so it is absolutely true that it’s very hard to find a perfect 3rd & 4th options who are good enough but happy to sit on the bench.
 

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Lindelof has shown he is a perfectly fine back up central defender to have in the squad. You're not going to get much better as a back-up. If Arsenal had him instead of Rob Holding, they might still be in the title race.
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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The difference between Lindelof in the first 9 months under ETH + his entire career with us AND Lindelof in the last 1 month under ETH. One is passive, pussy, ball watching, and softie. The other one is being aggressive and willing to stuck his leg or his body on the line even if it's 50:50. Whether he can continue and not go back to his old days, who knows.

 

criticalanalysis

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There’s no guarantees at how Ndicka would do in PL. We’ll see how highly he really is rated when we see what club eventually picks him up. He’s probably not looking to move to a club to be the bench option anyway. Not many are.

Why would a starter for Serie A winning Napoli move to United to be the third choice?

I agree that we need to find Varane’s successor soon.

I think him being the Swedish captain suggests he has some leadership qualities. Seems to communicate much more on the pitch than many of our other experienced players.

If the bolded is not true, why is the treble-winning City struggling to keep hold of Laporte? Most teams rotate very little in CB positions, so it is absolutely true that it’s very hard to find a perfect 3rd & 4th options who are good enough but happy to sit on the bench.
I mean it should be obvious already but probably in terms of order 1) money 2) club/prestige 3) premier league draw or something of that ilk. Anyone moving to Utd would likely be doubling, tripling etc their wages instantly not to mention the potential future performance based bonuses etc. We pay handsomely and that's a massive factor. Any player that has belief in their ability would be looking at Utd despite its problems and be fancying their chances as a starter/bench option because hopefully under ETH and the new ownership, we're the sleeping giant that is awakening again. It's a different scenario but it's the exact reasons or similar kind of thinking of why Varane and Casemiro 'stepped down' from Madrid to here.

As for what Lindelof does for Sweden, it doesn't really concern us at Utd and I'm not a follower of their games but from what some of the Swedish posters here say, even from a defensive POV, Lindelof is not really the aggressor/proactive type and tends to be to supported by certain players around him that do the brunt work. As for his communication, he certainly does a lot of pointing and gesturing but a lot of it is ineffective imo due to a multitude of factors that I can't really be bothered to go into depth but to simplify it:

1) No one actually listens to him.
2) His directions tend to be zonal readings of the game that only work if the whole team is in sync (spoiler: we are not there, at least not yet)
3) He hides behind the direction as it's almost always asking others to do the job e.g closing down opponents, covering space, making a run etc when in fact he's usually the one in the prime position to make the tackle, evade the press, make the pass etc. Two recent examples; where was his experience and leadership in that 2nd half collapse against Spurs when he was paired with Shaw, where he should been organising the defence as the most senior and experienced? Both of them were all over the place defensively regardless of what was happening in front of them. The West Ham goal; you can look up my recent posts in this very thread about his lack of proactive defending and tendency to direct rather than step in himself.

As for Laporte, that's more likely due to Guardiola not favouring him anymore and finding himself behind Stones, Dias, Akanji and Ake. It's a unique problem to City because the cheaters are on a treble and can replenish their squad whenever the feck they want. Despite that, they got a good couple seasons or two out of him and if we buy a player or Kim that can perform to that high standard, and then we find ourselves in the problem of 'Kim wanting to leave' because we've bought other capable players and have the means to replace him, then it's a good position to be in.

So to summarise, Lindelof has been decidedly average or below for 6 years. He's been decent for 10 games. He's not great or very good based on history and I wouldn't count on him. If the situations arises, then he may have the chance to prove himself again next season but likewise, if the situation arises, I would look to sell and replace him at the first chance.
 
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top1whoisman

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I mean it should be obvious already but probably in terms of order 1) money 2) club/prestige 3) premier league draw or something of that ilk. Anyone moving to Utd would likely be doubling, tripling etc their wages instantly not to mention the potential future performance based bonuses etc. We pay handsomely and that's a massive factor. Any player that has belief in their ability would be looking at Utd despite its problems and be fancying their chances as a starter/bench option because hopefully under ETH and the new ownership, we're the sleeping giant that is awakening again. It's a different scenario but it's the exact reasons or similar kind of thinking of why Varane and Casemiro 'stepped down' from Madrid to here.

As for what Lindelof does for Sweden, it doesn't really concern us at Utd and I'm not a follower of their games but from what some of the Swedish posters here say, even from a defensive POV, Lindelof is not really the aggressor/proactive type and tends to be to supported by certain players around him that do the brunt work. As for his communication, he certainly does a lot of pointing and gesturing but a lot of it is ineffective imo due to a multitude of factors that I can't really be bothered to go into depth but to simplify it:

1) No one actually listens to him.
2) His directions tend to be zonal readings of the game that only work if the whole team is in sync (spoiler: we are not there, at least not yet)
3) He hides behind the direction as it's almost always asking others to do the job e.g closing down opponents, covering space, making a run etc when in fact he's usually the one in the prime position to make the tackle, evade the press, make the pass etc. Two recent examples; where was his experience and leadership in that 2nd half collapse against Spurs when he was paired with Shaw, where he should been organising the defence as the most senior and experienced? Both of them were all over the place defensively regardless of what was happening in front of them. The West Ham goal; you can look up my recent posts in this very thread about his lack of proactive defending and tendency to direct rather than step in himself.

As for Laporte, that's more likely due to Guardiola not favouring him anymore and finding himself behind Stones, Dias, Akanji and Ake. It's a unique problem to City because the cheaters are on a treble and can replenish their squad whenever the feck they want. Despite that, they got a good couple seasons or two out of him and if we buy a player or Kim that can perform to that high standard, and then we find ourselves in the problem of 'Kim wanting to leave' because we've bought other capable players and have the means to replace him, then it's a good position to be in.

So to summarise, Lindelof has been decidedly average or below for 6 years. He's been decent for 10 games. He's not great or very good based on history and I wouldn't count on him. If the situations arises, then he may have the chance to prove himself again next season but likewise, if the situation arises, I would look to sell and replace him at the first chance.
That’s not the obvious order of priority for every footballer.

Regarding the bolded part, that’s 95% of the communication that every player playing behind the team does.

”No one actually listens to him”. Yeah I think there’s no point in discussing this any further.

Let’s disagree and hope we find the ideal 3rd choice from somewhere.
 

MadDogg

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So fast? It took him 9 months under ETH to be an aggressive and proactive. He played passively next to varane, shaw or Martinez in those 9 months. Martinez doesn’t need to use Maguire as an excuse, he still plays proactive and aggressive even when he played next to Maguire.

ETH demands both his centre back to be aggressive and proactive, good example is what he had at Ajax both timber and Martinez are proactive and aggressive. That’s why ETH has been picking maguire more over Lindelof before end of April because Lindelof tends to be too passive and reactive.

The semi final FA Cup vs Brighton was when Lindelof started showing aggression and play more proactive when defending. This is what I expect him to do when defending. Not passive or being pussy.
He wasn't. Up until recently the two of them basically alternated. That's why we had some posters claiming that Maguire was ahead in the pecking order while others said Lindelof was. In reality they were basically dead even when it came to starting games. Maguire was slightly preferred as a sub though since his aerial ability was useful late on when teams were throwing everything into the box.
 

red woppit

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Aggressive Lindelof is a good player. Not as good as Varane or Licha, but makes the drop from them quite small.

Passive Lindelof on the other hand is bad. But we have seen aggressive Lindelof in the last few matches.
Absolutely.
I've always thought he was much to passive, and got bullied easily, but since he's come back into the team he's like a new player, much more aggressive, dominant, and his passing is pretty good.
 

criticalanalysis

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That’s not the obvious order of priority for every footballer.

Regarding the bolded part, that’s 95% of the communication that every player playing behind the team does.

”No one actually listens to him”. Yeah I think there’s no point in discussing this any further.

Let’s disagree and hope we find the ideal 3rd choice from somewhere.
Bad wording on my part but it should read or come across as the more obvious and likely reasons as to why a footballer would move from 'xyz successful club and country' to a team like Utd or rather any team in the PL. Also those reasons are not exclusive to each other, they come as a package i.e money and club structure of which we would offer a pretty good overall project. For every one Haaland and Bellingham, who yes may 'reject' Utd there are ten others of similar potential talent or below that bracket that we could entice.

No one listens to Lindelof in the same way no one (on the whole) listens to Maguire and Bruno. I don't think they are respected as leaders and/or the tactically smart players that have 'it' to be orchestrating the team, at least not in the same way Casemiro and Varane does; that comes down to individual influence as much as the team set up, which is the manager's responsibility imo. That's a whole different discussion anyways.

As for the bolded, you have conveniently ignored the second part of my reasoning of why his 'leadership' is ineffective; he's pointing others to do what he should be doing himself. That's not to mention the literal examples I have given you. If you doubt my take, then the onus is on you to explain how his leadership is really above that of anyone in the squad other than gesturing; it was not me who made that claim to give him some superfluous quality. Does he visually communicate more than the others? Yes. Do I feel his influence on the pitch positively affects others compared to when he is not on it? Absolutely not, as there is zero difference. At least with someone like Bruno, who probably isn't a great captain/leader in that way, he does his talking on the pitch with hard running, spamming of balls and his chaos of energy. Apart from the last 10 games, Lindelof has never consistently put his body on the line and left it all out there on the pitch. And before anyone starts accusing this of meaning blood and thunder, last ditch tackles and defending etc, that's absolutely not the case. The word 'passive' has been used by dozens/hundreds (?) of posters (even his biggest fans) over the past 6 years; it's not some targeted hate, it's the simple objective truth. He doesn't lead through verbal tactics/communication or in his own individual play; to say otherwise, is just a massive reach.
 
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A-man

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I think him being the Swedish captain suggests he has some leadership qualities. Seems to communicate much more on the pitch than many of our other experienced players.
Yes his leadership qualities are often mentioned. ETH mentioned it in the post game interview the other day, and Carl Anka wrote about his communication skills in The Athletic a week ago:

Lindelof’s onfield communication allows him to coordinate and complement his defensive colleagues in a way that has been beyond other United centre-backs over the years.
 

top1whoisman

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Yes his leadership qualities are often mentioned. ETH mentioned it in the post game interview the other day, and Carl Anka wrote about his communication skills in The Athletic a week ago:

Lindelof’s onfield communication allows him to coordinate and complement his defensive colleagues in a way that has been beyond other United centre-backs over the years.
Yeah but it’s not like our manager or a journalist close to the team know better than someone on a forum.
 

criticalanalysis

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Yeah but it’s not like our manager or a journalist close to the team know better than someone on a forum.
Plenty of ETH and journalist quotes on Ronaldo's professionalism/standard setting and Maguire's leadership on/off the pitch (like him being meek and in the background during the FA cup semi final penalty shoot out whereas we had Casemiro and Bruno doing rallying cries).

Yet when a poster on a forum gives recent literal examples, there's no comeback and the burden of proof on the person making the statement instead uses PR talk quotes as gospel and then tries to deride the one making an effort in a well mannered discussion. Very mature.
 

top1whoisman

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Plenty of ETH and journalist quotes on Ronaldo's professionalism/standard setting and Maguire's leadership on/off the pitch (like him being meek and in the background during the FA cup semi final penalty shoot out whereas we had Casemiro and Bruno doing rallying cries).

Yet when a poster on a forum gives recent literal examples, there's no comeback and the burden of proof on the person making the statement instead uses PR talk quotes as gospel and tries to deride the one making an effort in a good mannered discussion. Very mature.
EtH and Anka’s comments are also recent literal examples of the opposite. Don’t know why they are classed as PR instead of genuine comments by default but I guess it is what it is.

Yeah I think there’s no point in going on about this. Disagree with most of what you said. Enjoy your week.
 

criticalanalysis

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EtH and Anka’s comments are also recent literal examples of the opposite. Don’t know why they are classed as PR instead of genuine comments by default but I guess it is what it is.

Yeah I think there’s no point in going on about this. Disagree with most of what you said. Enjoy your week.
Well by the powers of deduction, considering ETH has pretty much praised and complimented everyone since his tenure here (which I believe is the right thing to do overall), what does that say about his comments in general? In fact has he criticised anyone period? I can give benefit of the doubt and accept as is, which I have no issue with but I would also take with a big pinch of salt. However, I certainly wouldn't use it as some objective proof.

Besides, more importantly, I queried this specific quality with actual in game examples and my observations of the past 6 years. I haven't extrapolated his form of the past 10 games like it seems some have.
 

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He stepped massively when we needed him. As I always thought, out of our defensive pairing these last few seasons under Ole, he was the actual good one carrying on Maguire not the opposite.

People kept on saying we needed to upgrade over Lindelof to cover for Maguire, it was just a tiresome argument. It's the opposite. Lindelof was our good defender, while Maguire needed to be thrown out of the window.

Happy to keep him as a squad option because he's very reliable.
 

Andycoleno9

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He stepped massively when we needed him. As I always thought, out of our defensive pairing these last few seasons under Ole, he was the actual good one carrying on Maguire not the opposite.

People kept on saying we needed to upgrade over Lindelof to cover for Maguire, it was just a tiresome argument. It's the opposite. Lindelof was our good defender, while Maguire needed to be thrown out of the window.

Happy to keep him as a squad option because he's very reliable.
Don't remind me on that BS. Even pundits (especially Neville) were pushing that story how Maguire needs a partner who "suits him"
 

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Big shoes to fill and he did with ease. Maguire has tainted a lot of people's opinion about him, but he has certainly shown he's good enough.
 

top1whoisman

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Think he was again the better of the two CBs
Both were very good. In the first half I thought Lindelöf was a bit shaky but his defending in the second half was superb.

Very good in our box and should’ve got a deserved ”pre-assist” if Bruno didn’t decide to smash it full force when he could’ve passed it in.
 

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He is a huge reason we got top 4 with Licha being out. Deserves lots of credit. Excellent third choice CB.

He will get overpowered at times but his positioning and ball playing is always good.
 

Annihilate Now!

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Loving his new outlook on life. If he went skinhead I reckon he would legit look like a right hard bastard.
 

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I have such sympathy for Victor. Imagine getting your dream move to United, only to find yourself parked alongside the likes of Baily, Rojo and Slabster.

Adding quality players has really elevated some of the existing squad, Victor included. His qualities are shining through.
 

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Very good performance. One of the few players that seemed to be taking defending seriously tonight.
 

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Hope, We Lose
Both were very good. In the first half I thought Lindelöf was a bit shaky but his defending in the second half was superb.

Very good in our box and should’ve got a deserved ”pre-assist” if Bruno didn’t decide to smash it full force when he could’ve passed it in.
I disagree. Varane, especially with the Felix goal where he backed off, refused to engage and then let him shoot with no pressure and casually put it into the corner was poor. If Chelsea were able to finish chances occasionally they could have had at least 2 or 3 goals. But obviously in that 2nd half especially we could also have had another 2 or 3 so we were clearly way ahead by that point.

Neither were without mistakes and moments they could have done better, but Lindelof was taking the lead and being more active defending more often and made less than Varane. Thats why he was the better of the 2. And on current form of our CB options, if we had everyone available I'd have him at RCB next to Martinez at LCB - until the summer where I fully expect us to sign a better RCB. But the point is that he's doing better than Maguire and Varane in recent games. He's more aggressive and assertive, the things he's tended to lack and now he looks like he's enjoying defending more than Varane does. So a bit of credit to Lindelof for doing some of the things I've disliked about him not doing in the past.
 
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