I still think that his performances this season has been a bit overrated, he's had better seasons.
Vidic
- Thread starter SFraser
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I think someone said in the other thread and it made sense that when you get outplayed like that and the other team is running at your defense left, right and centre (and allowed to do so) then it's only a matter of time that chances will come. You can knit pick a lot on mistakes but it would take some poor final third play or some unreal level of defending rarely seen or possibly both to keep the other team out. We got spanked in midfield, of course we weren't going to swat their attacks like flies with consummate ease. It's not how the attack vs defense thing works.
I'm sorry but I can't even begin to criticize Vidic and Ferdinand. They can hold their heads up high IMO. It was an impossible task.
The way Iniesta sells the ball to Carrick
I'm only giving instances in big games where certain players have made him look poor.You mean the Kaka who he played against once when he was coming back from a broken collarbone. He's only played vs Eto'o once either.
That's all. Unless those players listed haven't done it?
Facing a team like Barca where everybody is running at you I can never be 100% confident as Vidic has this weakness in his game.
The following season at Anfield aswell when they won 2-0?
I'll begrudgingly have another look at the game.
Well from what you've said, either way theres inevitably a goal, which simply isnt true. Like you say, he could dribble around you if you rush out, or shoot from 25 yards from score. However, both outcomes are avoidable. It doesnt matter whether its Pele, Messi or Emmanuel Eboue. Defenders are always taught to shut down the opposition to avoid them from shooting. You know this. However, the mistake players make is diving in and they're out of the game; leaving their defence exposed. That is a crucial mistake.
Stay on your feet against the opposition and dont turn your back on the shot is something your taught as a defender when you're a kid.
Look at Messi's goal and tell me what Vidic could have done to prevent it. And consider the pace at what all this is happening and Vidic's position.
Two goals were scored outside of our box! This should tell you something.
Rio was at fault for the goal Torres scored. Now compare that to the number of times ladyboy has been kept in our CB's pockets. A player of Torres' quality will sometimes get the better of you, that's a given.
Exactly.
When Rio got outdone by Torres for the opener? Oh yeah.
Why are people only looking at the goals conceded to judge how a defender played?
Is this a new fad?
Torres was causing him problems through that game.
yes all I'm saying is I can't be 100% confident with Vidic regarding these type of players.
I'm more confident with Rio.
The instances I've listed are not plenty but they do raise some concern imo because they are all big games.
That is because Rio is much more mobile than Vidic and Vida is as agile as spurs' Thuddlestone.
But I can come up with just as many for Rio, in big games too.
You can never be 100% confident against players of that caliber.
You might be more confident of Rio, others might be of Vidic. But you have to put the 'bricking it' in perspective. Messi would be bricking it if he had to deal with the ball constantly lumped up to him with Vidic attacking it.
And this happens to every player at certain times, they have poor games. It doesnt help when the midfield leaves the backline exposed a lot of the time we play against a team who move the ball quickly. That leaves everyone at the back vulnerable. Saturday proved it, as did quite a few away games this season.
So for which goals vs Barcelona do you place the responsibility on Vidic?! Have I missed your analysis somewhere?
On second viewing, he was more at fault for the first goal than I remembered. Since everyones been slating paddy, its obscured my memory somewhat. Evra is clealry marking Messi, and Vidic lets Pedro in behind with a basic piece of movement in truth. He'll be annoyed with himself.
The second goal he is partially at fault with Evra. Just a lack of communication and taking initiative of the situation. They both waited for each other to come out and close down Messi and Evra was slow in doing so. In my view, Vidic shouldve been the one to come out; Rio had Villa and Evra could tuck in. Its just a defensive mistake that happens in every game all the time.
Do you see Giggs casually following Xavi, not even attempting to attack him, and then Fabio and Rio both marking ONE Barca striker instead of one of them coming out and intercepting!
Second goal: Vidic should have been the one to come out? Only if he has supernatural abilities to move with the speed of light. I actually blame Carrick and especially Park more than anyone for this for not even attempting to disrupt Messis's run. Imagine the space Vidic would have left behind him if he would have come out too.
It's all a bigtime midfield feck up, there's just no doubt about that.
Since 2006 I doubt it but I do invite you.
I think most people woyuld be confident with Rio as conveyed by the landslide poll the other day.
My analysis was Vidic looked poor at times.
And that's hes not comfortable with skillful players running at him and ultimately Rooney played better.
I never blamed Vidic for the goals. I do think is performance was nothing like that mentioned in the op.
When Messi picks the ball up in space with no midfielder on him 20 yards from goal then yes, there's a good chance there is going to be a good chance created. I think we saw this on many occasions. Messi taking a strike from this range is less of a threat than him taking it past Vidic and exploiting the space - I'd imagine that was his thought process. Or he was just too scared to take a risk and close it down after seeing him expose us (and himself) so many times. I happen to think it was the former, he sensibly left Evra to go for it - 1. Because he was closer and 2. Because he'd just passed on his man anyway and 3. Because he covers ground quicker - and he expected VDS to have him covered if the shot went on his inside. I don't think Vidic is to blame.
You've kind of contradicted yourself there. Fabio and Ferdinand did nothing. Rio was marking Villa and Fabio was on the other side (or also marking him in your view), yet you want one of them to come out and stop Xavi when Giggs was already there. Do you see what I mean? Giggs was poor, no doubt, but even still the goal would've been avoided if Vidic was aware of Pedro behind him.
Park ran his heart in truth. To be honest, the second goal was poor by all of the ones involved. X couldve done this, X couldve done that etc. They were visibly knackered.
Thing is though, Evra didnt know Vidic's thought process or the other things you mentioned, which is why I said he should've taken initiative and close him down!
I dont wanna argue about the goals they scored tbh, knowing what couldve gone better doesnt make me any happier. I know they all played their hearts out though, and personally, I think its an absolute disgrace that we have fans suggesting "only so and so put in any effort, the others didnt try". They ran their bollocks off. Typical English mentality, when all goes wrong blame the work rate and passion.
I see the point you're making about Pedro. In the video it looks as if Vidic took him, so he kinda should have stuck with him, but I think Vidic just found himself in an awkward positioning and it was a bit easy how Pedro seemingly slipped away from all of them.
But Rio and Fabio, I dont know if there was no communication or if they both waited for Xavi to come to the edge of the box before at least one of them goes at him, or were they relying on Giggs to do something, anything! and not just look exhausted..
Agreed. Pedro was definitely Vidic's man in that scenario. I think Pedro's movement was clever enough though and the pass was a peach. Pedro's first touch was also perfection and he took the shot very early (which also fecked up VdS). If he hadn't got his touch absolutely spot on, Vidic would have got a block in.
If we had to blame anyone for that goal it would be Vidic but that was a very very good goal, from Barca's perspective.
I think its because Xavi very rarely shoots outside of the box. In his case, his passing is more of a threat than his shooting, so the defenders were plugging the holes where he could find a pass, which Vidic failed to so as I was referring to.
Yeah, I take back what I said about 'basic' movement though, not quite what I was looking for. It was clever as you say, but unfortunately Vidic's lack of awareness/movement made it easier for them.
What are you on about? Pedro was Evra's man up until about 3 seconds before the pass when he decides to pass him onto Vidic, step up and mark Messi, and leave a massive gap at left back where Pedro scores from.
So you agree Pedro was being marked by Vidic?
That's what I'm on about.
That's what I'm on about.
I'm saying Evra stopped marking Pedro 3 seconds before the pass and dropped Vidic straight in it.
Before Evra decided to change who he was defending against it was Evra on Pedro, Rio on Villa and Vidic facing Xavi running at the defence. Then just before the pass Evra decides he no longer want's to be part of the defensive line, instead he will move into midfield and let Vidic mark Pedro. But Vidic already had his eye and his body shape set up to defend against Xavi running at him.
Try watching the move from when Carrick misses his interception.
Before Evra decided to change who he was defending against it was Evra on Pedro, Rio on Villa and Vidic facing Xavi running at the defence. Then just before the pass Evra decides he no longer want's to be part of the defensive line, instead he will move into midfield and let Vidic mark Pedro. But Vidic already had his eye and his body shape set up to defend against Xavi running at him.
Try watching the move from when Carrick misses his interception.
Arsene Wenger was commenting the game of french TV and he clearly said the first goal was Evra's misjudgement
it's a toss up between Wenger and Pogue Mahone
hmmm
it's a toss up between Wenger and Pogue Mahone
hmmm
I was about to ask Nani Nana for his own opinion, rather than parroting the views of a famously myopic French manager when it occured to me that his opinion on anything Serbian is essentially worthless.
Actually, you could remove "Serbian" from that last sentence and it would still hold true.
Actually, you could remove "Serbian" from that last sentence and it would still hold true.
Wow a harmless post really wound you up.
The post didn't wind me up at all. Nani Nana winds me up all the time. He's incredibly annoying.
lol
I couldn't disagree more with this. The first goal can be attributed to him sure, but I think also Evra should take blame for being sucked in that much. Vidic had a lot of defending to do on Saturday and whilst this wasn't as good as a performance as the OP makes out - it was still very good.
No defender likes raw pace, Vidic has made a couple of mistakes in the past against those players but it's never been to the extent that some make out. When he played against Kaka he was rushed back from injury, and against Barca in the 09 final he was not fully fit either - Paddy Crerand confirmed this..
Don't even get me started on Torres.
Key point in this goal is Vidic telling Evra to close down - then it becomes too late, and Messi shoots. I dunno what Vidic could have done because he didn't dive away from the ball and leave a gap, it simply went underneath him, VDS would have been really disappointed by that goal.
He got sent off against Dirk Kuyt. The goal in that game was down to him outmuscling Rio if I recall correctly. So again, the Torres myth rears it ugly head. What about every other game since, what has Torres done?
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