Understood. That would explain the fact that it has caused no controversy in Spain and the absence of an official statement from Madrid. In Ireland, we also had a number of 'colloquial' expressions that used to be commonplace but are properly not acceptable any more. The monkey connection is not particular to Brazil or a couple of countries, it's pretty universal. To claim it's not a thing in Spain is pretty unbelievable. At the very least, the comments were exceptionally naive.
Vinicius Junior
- Thread starter jackofalltrades
- Start date
I hope he dances for every celebration he does going forward. It’s great.
I love celebrations that piss other people off. Messi raising his shirt up at the Bernabeau, Rooney screaming “feck off” at the camera, Lingard dancing at the Emirates. The Villa goalkeeper who was dancing after he saved a penalty against us.
Celebrations like these are the best. They are one of the things that make football a passionate and enjoyable sport.
I love celebrations that piss other people off. Messi raising his shirt up at the Bernabeau, Rooney screaming “feck off” at the camera, Lingard dancing at the Emirates. The Villa goalkeeper who was dancing after he saved a penalty against us.
Celebrations like these are the best. They are one of the things that make football a passionate and enjoyable sport.
What expressions do you have in Ireland? I'm curious now
That’s the thing about modern society. If you aren’t offended by something, you can be sure as hell that someone else will be offended by it on your behalf.
While I’m not going to pass judgement on something that could easily just be a misunderstanding, I do believe he should have chosen his words better. It’s sad but that’s the world we live in. You can be cancelled or demonized for the most innocuous thing.
I certainly did! I've no time for a grown man who's reaction to putting his country 2-1 in a World Cup final is doing a fecking Fortnite dance.
We do actually use the word monkey colloquially in Ireland, without any racist intent. You might say kids are “little monkeys” or “monkeying around” or “acting the monkey”.
The thing is, we would never use that phrase about a black man. For very obvious reasons. Context matters.
Most normal people know not to refer to a black person as a monkey. If there's a traditional phrase that would involve you doing so, you don't use that phrase in that context. It's not rocket science, nor is the need to apply that ultra-basic cop-on some sad indictment of modern society.
Besides that, the general point he's making is stupid too. Partly because the idea that dancing is inherently disrespectful to your opponents is weird. But also because it's something a player like Ronaldinho was doing in Spain some two decades ago, quite possibly players before that too, and certainly many players since then. Why someone would suddenly have a problem with one specific player doing it, I have no idea.
Besides that, the general point he's making is stupid too. Partly because the idea that dancing is inherently disrespectful to your opponents is weird. But also because it's something a player like Ronaldinho was doing in Spain some two decades ago, quite possibly players before that too, and certainly many players since then. Why someone would suddenly have a problem with one specific player doing it, I have no idea.
That monkey debacle reminds me of that Porch Monkey scene in Clerks 2, don’t worry lads, he’s taking it back.
I have not been following news the past 2 days due to a very busy schedule but where does this "racism" against Vinicius come from out of a sudden?
Another RM orchestrated media campaign?
Vinicius is a very provocative player with a dubious attitude. Whether this is your typical Brazilian diva like behavior (Neymar most recent example in Spain) or his young age or whatever, but it is evident.
Write https + twitter + com/Reycholosimeone/status/1570906637023727616 to see an example of this dubious behavior (heavy insults in Spanish to opponents, provocations etc.)
Double standards in the RM dominated media: (speaking about Neymar)
Write https + twitter + com/_Futbolero_/status/1571125514294927364
Write https + twitter + com/_Futbolero_/status/1570903203692318720
I cannot post links yet. (they are all in Spanish BTW, people can use Google Translate to get the grasp of it)
BTW, there is no racism to see anywhere, I just saw the statement. 100 times worse things were said about Neymar during his time at Barça and I did not see this reaction or "everyone with Neymar" media campaign and Neymar was far more abused/kicked etc. than Vinicius has ever been. By RM players too - the famous Isco brutal tackle against him in the 0-4 victory in 2015 is a good example of this.
This is typical selective outrage in Spanish media, nothing new.
How this turned into a "racism" discussion is a good indication of the absurdity and extreme political correctness that exists nowadays where even innocent statements are scrutinized and always seen as something with ulterior motives. Absurd.
Another RM orchestrated media campaign?
Vinicius is a very provocative player with a dubious attitude. Whether this is your typical Brazilian diva like behavior (Neymar most recent example in Spain) or his young age or whatever, but it is evident.
Write https + twitter + com/Reycholosimeone/status/1570906637023727616 to see an example of this dubious behavior (heavy insults in Spanish to opponents, provocations etc.)
Double standards in the RM dominated media: (speaking about Neymar)
Write https + twitter + com/_Futbolero_/status/1571125514294927364
Write https + twitter + com/_Futbolero_/status/1570903203692318720
I cannot post links yet. (they are all in Spanish BTW, people can use Google Translate to get the grasp of it)
BTW, there is no racism to see anywhere, I just saw the statement. 100 times worse things were said about Neymar during his time at Barça and I did not see this reaction or "everyone with Neymar" media campaign and Neymar was far more abused/kicked etc. than Vinicius has ever been. By RM players too - the famous Isco brutal tackle against him in the 0-4 victory in 2015 is a good example of this.
This is typical selective outrage in Spanish media, nothing new.
How this turned into a "racism" discussion is a good indication of the absurdity and extreme political correctness that exists nowadays where even innocent statements are scrutinized and always seen as something with ulterior motives. Absurd.
Eh, Koke hasn't said anything weird. Just one sentence out of his interview taken out of context
That president of the spanish agents on the other hand should lose his job at a minimum. Fecking hell. Racist and Xenophobic in one interview, and over absolutely fecking nothing too
That president of the spanish agents on the other hand should lose his job at a minimum. Fecking hell. Racist and Xenophobic in one interview, and over absolutely fecking nothing too
He's made 176 apps for Madrid and is only 22. Wow. He could become one of Madrids biggest legends if he carries on.
- I've just noticed Foden has made 3 more appearances for City at the same age and could also go on to become a legend for the prestigious Machester City football club.
- I've just noticed Foden has made 3 more appearances for City at the same age and could also go on to become a legend for the prestigious Machester City football club.
Even if some say it's not racist, best case scenario is that it's xenophobic.
Comments by that Pedro guy or whats his name are disgraceful. I hope Vincinius will score a couple and dance each time.
Oh man. Not a well-placed comment. It's high probable that it wasn't a intently racial comment, but rather a poorly chosen idiom along the lines of "playing the fool". I've heard the phrase (in multiple languages) playing the monkey used as to denote someone being silly on few occasions used to other caucasians, so, there is a precedent for using it as an expression in a general sense. This is where I think the mistake occurs on this part. It's not wise to use an idiom in that way given Vini's racial profile, but, I can understand the potentiality all the same to use it without a second thought of context.
President: “stop playing like a monkey, if you want to dance go back to Brazil”
Barcelona fans: this is definitely not racist!!!
Barcelona fans: this is definitely not racist!!!
absolutely incredible jump he’s made in the last year, best winger in the world right now imo (Vini not that other little shit)
Barca fans here and in the La Liga thread claiming the comments aren’t racist 
Point scoring over 'our player was more racially abused, duh' is just patheticBarca fans here and in the La Liga thread claiming the comments aren’t racist
But Spain doesn’t exist in some cultural vacuum where influences, perceptions and language don’t evolve. Growing up in England I would often hear the phrase “stop monkeying about”. Means the same thing as your “playing the monkey” in Spain. Anyone here over a certain age will tell you the same thing.
Thing is, as I grew up and realised that black peoples were often compared to Monkeys in a racist, derogatory manner, I - like almost every other adult human in England - realised that it wasn’t an expression I should ever use towards a person of colour. Not because I would mean it in a racist way, but because it had irrefutable racist connotations regardless of intent.
So unless this chap has been living in some sort of cryogenic chamber for the last forty years, and was just thawed out for this interview, there is no way that (a) he doesn’t know about the use of “monkey” to denigrate black people, and (b) that he shouldn’t do it. And having lived in Spain for a good portion of my adult life, and attended a lot of La Liga matches, and having watched first hand the startling amount of times I watched opposition fans throw bananas at black players or make monkey noises towards them; I would safely assume that a guy working in the industry (and not just a casual observer), is well aware of not only the racist connotations, but also the prevalence of it in his profession.
But by all means, hide behind an historical definition of the expression that negates the overwhelming cultural evidence and commentary of the last forty plus years. Or maybe you know how horribly inappropriate this was, and you are being culturally sensitive as though this is an attack on Spanish culture. It isn’t, it’s an attack on the wilful use of racist language.
I have already explained the meaning of that expression and it has nothing to do with skin color. In Spanish culture it is not racist, it is simply seen as racist by those who have another culture, those who are not impartial and those who see racism in everything.
I have used that expression all my life, and all the people around me, and in newspapers, radio and television.
That you have lived for a while in Spain and seen people throw bananas in a stadium has nothing to do with a Spanish cultural expression.
The point he made has flown over your head. It's strange because he explained it very precisely
Yawn. Typical response of someone who refuses to see racism that’s smacking him right in the face. People always get so defensive about these things as if its some attack on Spanish culture, when all you’re doing is defending and okay-ing racist language, even when the person in question himself is pointing out the racist connotations that comes with using that monkey phrase on a black person. I like you as a poster, I’ve enjoyed reading your posts but you should probably think about what you’re saying.
I had to do some training courses for work a while back. The jist of one of them was that it pretty much doesn't matter what you say or indeed how you say it or the context you meant it, if someone finds it offensive then it is. I don't necessarily agree with that.
But if you use the word monkey when talking about someone of a certain skin colour, then you are a total idiot and deserve to be punished for it.
The xenophobic nature of what he said makes a pretty stark case for racism too. Let's face it, he used that expression deliberately, in reference to a black man, knowing full well the history of dehumanization of black individuals by comparing them to monkeys
When an animal threw a banana at dani alves a few years ago, the line used to fight back - coined by neymar - was "we are all monkeys" ffs. That stuff happened in Spain
I fully agree with you. Just wanted to say that even if someone wanted to defend those words, they're still despicable.
He didn't explain anything. Making the monkey means the person who makes the idiot.
And it has nothing to do with your skin color.
What you have to do is explain to these ignorant people about the subject (Vinicius, Neymar, Pelé etc). Explain what he told him not to do the idiot.
And if in other countries that is racist then it is up to them.
The whole "don't act like a monkey" by itself i don't find anything particularly problematic with, to be honest(of course, i'm italian, my experience with racism amounts to dumb commercials in england/america and being stopped a few times by authorities who mistook me for north african/middle eastern and then promptly forgot about me once they saw my ID or heard me speak, so very different from a poc), comes down to context to me. And this context makes intention pretty clear to me
Certain expressions, no matter how innocent they are, cannot be used when it comes to certain groups of people. Spain isn't isolated from the rest of the world,the same equivalent expressions exist in other languages and if you use them in the wrong context then they can be considered racist.
A person doesn't need to belong to the KKK to say racist stuff.
But surely racism has to have racism behind it? Or we’re raging against cultural misunderstandings
Let me put it this way: did Suarez racially abuse Evra? Afterall, all he did was call him black
As far as I'm concerned, you have true hardcore racists and you have people who can say racist stuff out of stupidity/anger/ignorance without them being ideological about it. The best example is Luis Suarez
The fact that that it's an expression you've used all your life without racist intent doesn't excuse you from the general expectation that people understand not to compare black people to monkeys in their choice of langauge. And that includes applying common expressions that would do so to them.
If someone opts to use that expression in relation to a black person, they should understand that a lot of people are quite likely to react negatively for very obvious reasons. If they don't understand that or worse again refuse to accept it, that's entirely on them for lacking that ultra-basic common sense. Because when you're that dumb there's a price that comes with it.
There's a lot of racists who hide behind the stupidity/ignorance defence. Case in point, the idiot we're talking about
Honestly, i believe in the stupidity/ignorance defence less and less. For the most part, i think people just don't care. They're racist without being particularly malicious about it and don't care about it
First of all you don't know me to say that I don't see racism for debating an expression.
What is considered racist in one country may not be in another.
Does anyone really believe that a person is going to deliberately call a Real Madrid player a monkey on television and believe that they are not going to fire him? He said it because that expression does not have racist connotations.
If tomorrow a word that is in an expression is used by some people from a group to insult others from another group, that expression must also be eliminated and so on.
And if tomorrow the United States spreads that cultural appropriation throughout the Anglo-Saxon world and a white player from Spain puts on braids, he will be branded a racist. What may be racist in one culture may not be in another and that country does not believe that it has the moral superiority to impose what they deem appropriate.
Yes. And you're proof of it. Because unfortunately too many people think like you
Then I'd still put them in the hardcore/ideological category tbh. I do believe anger can make one spout some crazy shit they can instantly regret, even if it's never an excuse.
I also believe some people are really that thick to realize what they say truly mean
Yes because he lied about what he said? Didn’t he say he hurt him because he was black or something? He didn’t just call him black.
I’m just reading people saying it doesn’t matter what meaning is behind words and it’s ridiculous imo. Then you’re just mad at words and not racism itself.
There has to be racism behind the words. The most racist prick in the world can use certain words that aren’t considered racist by us but are 100 percent racist to him, that’s still racist. It works both ways.
As an example, I never knew coconut was a racist term. Not one clue until recently. If there was ever a time before that i (somehow) called a black man a coconut (again somehow!)would it be racist?
For me there just has to be emotion behind it otherwise it’s not prejudiced.
If a person comes to Spain and someone says that to them and they feel offended, you have to explain to them what that expression really means and that they are not comparing it to a monkey.
Obviously there are racist people and they say that to call him a monkey but it is not the case of this person who said it to Vinicius. And this expression perse is not racist even if you say it to a black person.
If all the people in Spain tell a black person that he is acting like a monkey, 99.99999999% mean that he is acting like an idiot, the rest are racists.
Indeed, the expression is not racist, it is the context and how it is said.
I only read the statements, I have not seen the video. But I find it very difficult to believe that such an important person would call a Real Madrid player racist, knowing that if he does so they will fire him from a very good position and where he earns a lot of money.
It's also a reason why Spain has the stereotype of being a nation that condones racism. The lack of context clearly kills any argument in this regard.