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Vinicius Junior
- Thread starter jackofalltrades
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You could hear it on the tv just as he ran with the ball. It was far too loud to be just a few fans.
Others have come back on this but I think Italy and Spain have been deemed as problematic because they have had high profile incidents which they have tried to explain away.
Lukaku recently in Italy the fans said they weren't racist they were just throwing bananas/doing monkey chants/insert actual thing in order to wind him up. They weren't racist they just used anything they could as competitive advantage as if it were OK culturally across the nation.
I include Spain as I remember having a gobsmacking conversation at Uni around 15 years back with Spanish student who used exactly the same excuse when someone (I think Eto) walked off during a game after receiving the same racist treatment Lukaku did.
Not racist though. Just to wind them up.
Bit harsh there mate.....are you using it as a term of endearment?
Anyways yeah that's my point of the second sentence. We don't know who's quicker from a standing start or on/off the ball. There are quite a few players who have better acceleration over 1-10m but anything over that then and Walker's top speed will likely very evenly match that or catch up goalside etc.
The painful truth is that racism still exists in most countries. In some countries like Spain, Italy, Israel (ironically) it is quite in your face (monkey chants, name calling, kicking out blacks from the country) and systematic while in others like the UK, more of it is systematic.
Non whites in the UK do not have the same opportunities as whites as an example: working in a white firm, you are much less likely to be promoted compared to white person even if you work harder and are more productive.
The "in your face racism" can be got at because it is quite obvious but how do you fight this kind of systematic racism that cannot be fought with legislation?
Non whites in the UK do not have the same opportunities as whites as an example: working in a white firm, you are much less likely to be promoted compared to white person even if you work harder and are more productive.
The "in your face racism" can be got at because it is quite obvious but how do you fight this kind of systematic racism that cannot be fought with legislation?
Cadena Cope and other youtube channels show that they were chanting "Vinicius eres un mono"(you're a monkey) outside the stadium.
What a player…
One of the reasons why I’m so confident that Vini is going to maximize his talent, is this guy’s ability to drop his ego and take feedback … there was a period between the 1st and 2nd goals where his head was not in the game and he was getting involved in numerous fights with Atletico players … immediately after the 2nd goal and his resulting over the top celebration, Modric reminded him to focus on his game … Vini immediately cut out most of the BS and focused on making runs out wide for the rest of the game. But disappointing that he chose to dive a couple of times but Carlo should be able to deal with that.
Really interested to see how this guy goes over the next few years. He had a good year last season and even scored in the UCL final. Surely he must be considered in the same bracket as Mbappe and Haaland?
If we are taking technical ability only he is probably better than the other two, it was his end product that was missing but that improved massively last season and hopefully continues to improve. Ancelotti seems to know how to improve forwards, even at Everton he was able to turn DCL into a prolific striker.
If we are taking technical ability only he is probably better than the other two, it was his end product that was missing but that improved massively last season and hopefully continues to improve. Ancelotti seems to know how to improve forwards, even at Everton he was able to turn DCL into a prolific striker.
I was talking about his propensity to dive and feign injury; not his celebrations. As I said previously, I love the fact he plays with a smile on his face and you get a real sense of the joy he quite obviously gets from just playing football.
I genuinely can't understand how ignorant you are on this point haha(actually I can, I've read your posts elsewhere), half the world uses the term you are talking about, and literally everyone has learned that you should never, ever say it to a black person, because of what monkey means to them. It doesn't matter what the phrase means, you just don't say it.
Very strange how they've gone quiet now.
The problem is that firstly those countries also have the exact same problems with systemic racism, it's just that you have to also get through the often more in your face racism too and secondly that there seems to often be even more reticence to acknowledge any racism has occurred in the first place. As seen sadly in this very thread.
The systemic racism can and has been fought with societal change, as well as legislation and frankly passage of time too and the building up of networks by immigrants.
He has a bit to go to be considered the same level as Mbappe or Haaland simply because he has only had one really good year, the other two have had multiple, Mbappe has won a world cup. Now if Vini leads Brazil to a world cup in December then the conversation really starts.
Remember 2 years ago Vini was considered over rated and another super hyped South American youngster. Ancelotti has undoubtedly been good for him and he may well become one of the top players on the planet but he is not there quite yet, although he is headed in that direction rapidly.
You can discuss any topic, in a polite, aseptic, assertive way... But when people insult you, tag you, denigrate you and give absurd arguments and behave childishly because you're going to keep debating?
In addition to believing yourself with the absolute truth, you just have to see your comment.
Don't keep wasting time because of what I mentioned above.
When someone tells me that Spain is racist because a person threw a banana at Etoo not how many years ago and because he talked to a Spanish person 15 years ago... If that's the level then I don't waste time.
I’m curious as to which countries you believe are leading the way?
Exactly. I wrote something similar earlier in the thread. I don’t know how it was said or the meaning behind it so I cannot definitively say whether there was racial intent but he most definitely should have chosen his words better. So we can all agree he was an idiot at the very least.
I'm not 'believing myself with the absolute truth', this is a well understood concept in the majority of the world, you should not use that phrase in reference to a black person, you have numerous black people in this very thread telling you the same thing. You just seem to be blindly sticking to your opinion, instead of listening to advice from a lot of people from different countries, of different ethnicities.
Well if that's the way you want to paint it. It just comes across as defending racists to everyone else. Apart from that what about all of the racist chants last night? Was that some innocent colloquial use of the word 'monkey' as well?
You just gave me the reason totally in what I said in the previous post. But totally.
I am debating the use of a Spanish expression, how it is considered here and whether it is racist or not. And the first and only thing you say is that I defend racists for debating the use of an expression.
And then you change the subject to give an example of a despicable chant by rude and ignorant people, and indirectly and ironically try to accuse me of racism.
And you wonder why I don't continue debating this topic?
This is one of the problems with removing philosophy more and more from academic studies.
Whats ironic about that?
Top quality player, we need to get more like him at United.
By the way Real look fecking frightening at full speed. They are gonna win the CL again this year. All they need to be perfect was a top class striker.
It is ridiculous. If there was even any doubt about what that agent meant in the studio and whether he was being racist or not, we can say confidently from later reaction of the crowd and what kind of audience got fired up that he was racist and that racism is a problem in Spain.
My problem with racism is when white person does something idiotic, it is considered to have been done because person in question is prick. When it is black person on the other hand, in way too many cases idiotic behavior is explained by that person's black background. I've only taken example of poor behavior, but you could make dozens other equal examples, the point would be the same, and it is shocking and disgusting.
My problem with racism is when white person does something idiotic, it is considered to have been done because person in question is prick. When it is black person on the other hand, in way too many cases idiotic behavior is explained by that person's black background. I've only taken example of poor behavior, but you could make dozens other equal examples, the point would be the same, and it is shocking and disgusting.
As a player it’s rather interesting because it’s somewhat unlike Madrid to sign a young player, give him 3 full seasons to develop and him then become a mainstay in the 4th — he obviously exploded into a top player last season but the season just before last he got 3 goals and 3 assists in 22 starts and 13 sub appearances.
Yeah ok. It's educations fault. Sorry for being a moron who can't understand your nuanced philosophical point. Your argument was wrong-headed. It's well known that monkey is used a slur as you've admitted yourself. If we take that as a given then we must also agree that we can't use an otherwise innocent expression which references said slur when speaking about a black person if we do not want to cause offence. It's ridiculous to suggest the phrase itself is ok to use about a black player when we know that the word monkey is a slur and quite a popular one amongst racist football fans.
The point, as mentioned above, is that other countries are already familiar with the use of language you're trying to defend. Because they have variations of "acting the monkey", playing the monkey", "monkeying around", etc. as well. It isn't some uniquely Spanish turn of phrase, we all get it. But we also understand why it shouldn't be used in relation to black people.
Yet you seem to be arguing that you and the rest of Spain should for some reason be exempt from that basic expectation and common sense which applies across a whole host of other countries around you. Even as the reaction the Atletico fans to the story shows exactly why you should have been criticising that use of language in the first place rather than defending it.
In fact, worse than just defend it, you actually said Vinicius' complaints were just an example of attempted image washing and ignorance on their part.
I'm still not convinced he's a top player.
Really ? What he's done at his age and keeps doing is really incredible to me
That is very strange. But i guess he only starts for a average team like Real Madrid. Where he only scored 17 goals and had 13 assists in their titel winning season. Only had 4 goals, 7 assists in the CL and scored the winner in the CL final
This season he plays for that same average Real Madrid with 4 goals and 1 assist in 6 games and 1 goal and 1 assists in 2 cl games.
Needs to do better to be a top player. Bulking up and a loan would be good for him i think....
You don't really rate him so? ah ha ha
He is obviously a top player. Next to those stats he is also a fantastic dribbler, very quick and very good in 1v1 against defenders. One of the best LW players in the world.
I was only messing. I’m not disputing it by the way, I know he is.
I'm not really sure Real would have benefited from signing Mbappe the way they thought they would. Rodrygo also seems to have sprung to life this season, Mbappe would smother one of them, and I'm not sure he'd like playing as a centre forward.
Some of you are really pathetic. If anyone really follow football they would know that the monkey chants and throwing bananas at black players are racist.
Why are Spanish fans not shouting monkey chants and throwing bananas at white Spanish players then? They don't. They only do that to non white players of African origin.
Why are Spanish fans not shouting monkey chants and throwing bananas at white Spanish players then? They don't. They only do that to non white players of African origin.
Who is doing this and how? that seems a bit illegal to kick out blacks?!?
I have to disagree with the 2nd statement. its a generalisation that largely depends on industry, company, city, manager, director you work for/in. In many companies especially ones that rely on sales, its merit based as they care about the bottom line and who is going to make them the most money/value. If you are the top salesman/woman companies tend to bend over backwards to accommodate you as they fear you will leave.
My brother (black) is manager at a trading firm run by Jewish people. Most the staff under him are white. MY MD is a black woman, the previous an Israeli and they were above my department director who is a 60 odd year old white man so he answered to ethnic minorities. Of the management level staff in my department 1 team consists of a Turkish man, chinese/vietnamese woman, mix raced man. the other team consists of white man, white woman, white man. the final team is Asian woman, black man, Asian woman.
Among the new generation, he is easily among my top 5.
Most good players develop at that rate. A lot of top clubs their supporters refuse to give them time to mature.
Discussing racism with Spanish people is... Very strange. What they deem acceptable because of culture or education is rooted in arrogance and ignorance, and it's very hard to explain why some practices that are so obviously offensive shouldn't be tolerated. Fyi this isn't from "a conversation with a Spanish guy 15 years ago", I've been living in Spain for 4 years now. It's not rampant or anything (apart probably in Vox circles and the likes), but there is definitely an issue globally speaking.
One of my Spanish colleagues turned up to the Christmas party in blackface (dressed up as one of the Wise Men... the irony), for instance, and other Spanish colleagues didn't see the issue in it.
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In that same vein I'm reminded of Bernardo Silva receiving a 1 match ban for tweeting the below.
Or indeed Cavani's ban for us. Less deliberate racism, more a tone-deafness to what would be considered racist images/language.
There's probably a balance to strike between appreciating that people come from countries where there might be slightly different attitudes and uses of language versus thinking they should still know better despite their use of their background as a defence. But it does make for some jarring discussions.
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