What you rely on to ensure that he did it for racist purposes?
What evidence do you have or are you just saying it because he is a Real Madrid player and you are from Real Madrid?
Vinicius Junior
- Thread starter jackofalltrades
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What evidence do you have or are you just saying it because he is a Real Madrid player and you are from Real Madrid?
What is that reason? Where did you hear or read it? If 99% of the people who come to Spain believe that we like bullfighting here, we eat paella and tortillas at all hours, we take a siesta.
What there is in this world is a lot of ignorance of people who believe everything they say on TV or newspapers and do not investigate what is really happening from reliable sources.
Waffle, for example there's a slang term in London "gassing something up" which means to lie about something. It's a term I heard the youth saying. Now if this was said to someone of Jewish heritage is this acceptable ? The language itself is innocent but its the details surrounding the context that totally changes the narrative.
This is the same referring to any black person with an idiom etc with regards to a monkey. It has racial undertones because of the context. There's no exclusion in this world when it comes to ignorance. The presenter was ignorant. Doesn't matter what fancy "it's normal round here" argument is used to justify it.
What he said came off as both racist and xenophobic, some people might argue that it isn't the case but there's a lot racism in Spain so no wonder they're trying to pass it as a non-offensive comment.
If a black person comes to Spain, you have to understand not to use language that compares them to a monkey. Whether it's generally a normal expression for you or not. Because the overriding expectation is that you understand why doing so is a problem, not that the black person understands why he shouldn't think you doing so in this particular instance is racist.
If you instead decide to use that language, try to justify it as not being racist, don't apologise for your poor choice of words and then complain when you're criticised for something you could obviously be criticised for, all of that is on you. Not because you didn't properly explain what the expression means, but because you stupidly opted to use an expression that compared a black person to a monkey, something it should be beyond common sense for a grown adult not to do. And then tried to justify it instead of understanding and accepting why you were in the wrong and had said something stupid.
It's difficult to emphasise quite strongly enough just how easy it is for someone who isn't racist to avoid comparing black people to monkeys. If someone can't manage it, they're at the very least an idiot. And you can't walk around being an idiot and not expect criticism.
I don't think about that expression because I don't know how it is said and in what environment it is said.
But if you say it to a Jew, and that Jewish person is bothered by that expression.
Is it so hard to say, I'm sorry I didn't mean to bother you, I just wanted to say this with this expression?
Things are talked about before accusing people of serious things.
If a black person from the United States arrives in Spain, where they are used to calling them a person of color or Afro-American, and a Spaniard labels him black and the person is also offended, now do we Spaniards have to change our way of speaking? Whoever comes to Spain or another country must integrate into our culture, not the Spanish change our way of speaking because those who come from abroad have another. I have several friends from Senegal and if you call them people of color they get very angry and tell you to call me black, which is what I am. But to an American I will be racist.
You have not yet told me where you got that Spain condones racism.
Some people will defend anything under the guise of playing devil's advocate.
Spain is relatively multi culturally naive compared to other countries as it has had much less immigration than say the France or the UK, however as someone from abroad living here I don't believe the people are institutionally racist or racist in general, just naive to the way the world views these things and they have a lot to learn about what is acceptable (see the numerous blackface incidents involving footballers).
Also they really need to do themselves a favour and get rid of products that promote the image of them being racist. I still cannot believe that Conguitos are still for sale for example https://english.elpais.com/society/...s-candy-pushed-to-rebrand-racist-imagery.html
Also they really need to do themselves a favour and get rid of products that promote the image of them being racist. I still cannot believe that Conguitos are still for sale for example https://english.elpais.com/society/...s-candy-pushed-to-rebrand-racist-imagery.html
So racism doesn’t have to be involved in racism?
Any topic can be debated, the problem is that people do not know how to give arguments without insulting, or because you disagree with something they already put the label.
If you believe that an expression is not racist and people who disagree, insult you and call you racist and more. And without arguments. People are not capable of disagreeing with correction and education.
I agree on several things.
Just a note. Spain has as much immigration as the United Kingdom or France. And that without counting that the South American people obtain Spanish nationalization in only two years.
https://es.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anexo:Países_por_población_inmigrante
Racism has to be involved in racism. But racist intent or sentiment doesn't have to be involved in racism, at all.
If a footballer called another footballer the N-word but genuinely had zero racist intent and just saw it as gamesmanship, it would still be obvious racism. Because his feelings don't get to dictate to the rest of us what is or isn't racist.
Not least because, unsurpisingly, people who do and say racist things often have a skewed perception of what is/isn't or whether they are/aren't racist.
In this case we all understand that comparing black people to monkeys is one of the most common racist tropes. And we judge people who do so. Whether it's because they harbour racist sentiment or are too stupid to know better, we can't know and we have no particular reason to care. We can still say it is racism and they shouldn't have done it.
Far as i know, he didn't lie. He called him black, several times, in a mocking/insulting tone which clearly showed racist connotations
I agree. But you seem to have it backwards in this case. Read the whole statement. That was 100% intended as a racially charged insult
Conversely, now that you know that term can have racist connotations would you use it deliberately when adressing a black individual?
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You don't have to be intentionally racist to say something that is racist. Conversely, you can also deliberately say something that is racist without using outright racist expressions
Spain like Italy has this stereotype. It is what is. I cannot source where a stereotype has originated from only that it exists.
This subsequently answers the stereotype question. If someone visits another country integration into a culture and observation of a culture are two different things. I can visit a country and observe the culture respectfully without integrating into it. That's like saying going to Dubai or the middle East one must become a Muslim in order to appease the culture of the relative said place, nonsense.
That's not how the world works. In life people are given names not for the sake of it but for identification. Go to any professional establishment or place to conduct business and call people black or white and see if you can expand your horizons with networking.
But on what basis do you say that Spain condones racism? It's not true, that's why I ask you where you get the information.
No one is asking for one to change one's religion.
As @kouroux said, the point I made has flown completely over your head. I don’t think I could explain it any more clearly. I think you are just being purposely obtuse and doubling down on your original argument, which to be honest is really troubling.
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The problem is to believe false stereotypes and take them for granted without seeking information.
And then repeat them without any argument or information.
And then repeat them without any argument or information.
Sorry, I already gave you explanations. More I can't do if you don't understand it or argue anything.
Yes, am pretty sure everyone thinks Griezzman is a cnut.
Lack of objectivity, in no way have I stated to commonly agree or support with the said stereotypes only that they exist. Your rambling on about the need for others to integrate into Spanish culture exemplifies why these types of debates are prevalent.
Others have made valid points about Spanish culture being naive amongst elements such as multiculturalism and diversification around ethnicity. This therefore has a negative impact around influencing social competence. Your experience is different and your perspective is different because you are conditioned by your domesticity. The problem is your difference is controversial because in my opinion it lacks common sense.
It doesn't make either you or myself the better but one thing about civilization is there's always commonality where there's acceptance.
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Yes but I would argue the immigration is relatively recent probably because not so long ago Spain was a dictatorship.
Countries like the UK and France have had immigration going back centuries and there are several generations of people of colour.
Just look at parliament in the UK as an example. There is not a single prominent politician of colour in Spain to my knowledge.
He catches up because Dembele has to dribble / figure out what to do next. Dumbell seemed quicker before that.
Isn’t stereotyping generally frowned upon now? Or is that only if the stereotype doesn’t suit your narrative?
Depends on your perspective, stereotypes certainly can be largely depends on what they convey I have already given my view on this matter. The narrative you've subsequently touched on however is more of a reality due to a) the sole reason why this thread has been bumped and b) the evidence in the subsequent opinions posted which demonstrates why racial issues arise with regards to the traditional elements in specific countries.
If this is the depth of your summation regarding this particular issue then it's easier to pick and choose what "narrative" you feel strong toward given the issue with the presenters professionalism
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Griezmann is the worst
Nice use of narrative.
The poster means Spain and Italy have a reputation for being soft on punishments for racism and their societies in general seem to be more accepting of racist attitudes/humour than the UK or Ireland. I work with a Spanish guy and he told me himself that Spain is more racist than Ireland, for example.
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Yeah but it’s just a phrase they say in Spain mate
Atletico are a scum club on and off the pitch.
Neo-nazi ultras and they lack the guts to move against them
At least Laporta kicked theirs out of the stadium. Florentino too
All the manoeuvring people were doing in this thread; "I'm from bla bla it's not racist, bla bla bla"
Seems like the Atletico fans didn't get the memo
Seems like the Atletico fans didn't get the memo
It means "friend".
King Kenny printing out t-shirts as we speak.
Their gran has been calling them monkey for years and they are white. It's got nothing to do with race it's a term of endearment maybe.
I hope he scores a fecking hat-trick.
It’s just a phrase. You people need to integrate into Spanish culture more.
Real players dancing in front of the Atletico fans. 