No one is saying subs would have 100% won the game but just do your fecking job. Bring on Mata and Ighalo earlier to freshen things up, then what happens, happens.
Waiting to the 87th Minute Before Subs
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This is where game management comes in. It is is not about the bench being poor or worse than what is on the pitch. It is about assessing what is going on the pitch. The bench is not made up of CAF members. They are all International players but who are below the starting eleven.
The game management assessment comes in many ways. Is the tactics not working? Are we short in the midfield? Where are we losing the game? Which players are tired and not on 100%? Many issues. If the players are tired( in today's case it was so) then any option on the bench is good. No need to make it like for like. At least around the 70th minute mark is when you need to bring on fresh legs or when the opposition bring on fresh legs and when we see our players are not able to keep it up. Then also to bring a different game plan. Putting on Odion on the 89th minute is not a proper subbing. Players need a few minutes on the pitch at least.
I have said over and over again his game management is poor. Also look at the way we play. Our players do not seem to be on the same wavelength. That means we are not being drilled enough.
The problem is not coach and not even Klopp is good on his own. He needs a top class coaching team and I really do not think Carrick and Mckenna are good enough. Yes we should have scored but we didn't and a top coach would bring about changes early. It is not about the result. Even bringing changes may not win the game but at least changes were made and in good time and players and fans would know that everything was tried but we didn't win.
Now a lot of us do not have faith in him because we could see the incompetency in his game management. At this level it is simply not good enough.
The game management assessment comes in many ways. Is the tactics not working? Are we short in the midfield? Where are we losing the game? Which players are tired and not on 100%? Many issues. If the players are tired( in today's case it was so) then any option on the bench is good. No need to make it like for like. At least around the 70th minute mark is when you need to bring on fresh legs or when the opposition bring on fresh legs and when we see our players are not able to keep it up. Then also to bring a different game plan. Putting on Odion on the 89th minute is not a proper subbing. Players need a few minutes on the pitch at least.
I have said over and over again his game management is poor. Also look at the way we play. Our players do not seem to be on the same wavelength. That means we are not being drilled enough.
The problem is not coach and not even Klopp is good on his own. He needs a top class coaching team and I really do not think Carrick and Mckenna are good enough. Yes we should have scored but we didn't and a top coach would bring about changes early. It is not about the result. Even bringing changes may not win the game but at least changes were made and in good time and players and fans would know that everything was tried but we didn't win.
Now a lot of us do not have faith in him because we could see the incompetency in his game management. At this level it is simply not good enough.
Exactly, and sometimes just being different is enough... Gives the Sevilla players something different to deal with /think about.
Like you said, maybe it wouldn't have changed the result, but at the very least it could not have been any worse. We were diabolical for that last 30 minutes.
Some of the players on that bench have been signed/bought on loan/given extended contracts under Ole's tenure so one cannot argue it's a lack of faith in the subs on his part.
I don't think some of those bench players are being used effectively - not necessarily in tonight's game but others where they could have been used, which could have resulted in a more refreshed squad.
I don't think some of those bench players are being used effectively - not necessarily in tonight's game but others where they could have been used, which could have resulted in a more refreshed squad.
He cost then under £1m. James cost us £15-20m according to which publication you believe.
Neither are good players to be fair. Munir is decent & James is terrible.
James is terrible with the way he is being used. James is not going to be Giggs or like any top player but he has his uses for the team. Especially with 5 subs. But he is not being utilised the proper way. Teach him how to cross the ball and get him to do only that. Stop him from trying to do things he cannot do.
For this level I think it's fair to call him a terrible footballer. He has no technical attributes to his game whatsoever. He can run fast and he works hard. That's literally it.
Technically he's lower than the likes of Obertan and Bellion. In terms of overall ability he's probably about the same level as Bebe was. I'm not even exaggerating. He's really really bad. Lingard and Pereira, two of our shitter players, are more far better footballers than him, incomparably better.
Clearly there will be a limited number of signings. As i said, a rebuild takes time. We won't be winning the league or CL next season, but we will improve again.
Ole will ship out as many unwanted players as possible, the ones that put barriers up to moving won't play. Some will be kept and play league cup games and if we have any injury crisis.
Not looking for scapegoats actually but is there a heat map for Pogba. As I thought he was totally ineffective throughout. Happy to be corrected but all i saw was him drifting. Did he actually sprint to get in the box on any attack the whole match.
not the sole reason for the defeat but nobody (apart from Souness) is talking about how poor he was
not the sole reason for the defeat but nobody (apart from Souness) is talking about how poor he was
He was shocking & barely moved in the 1st half but was much better & honestly one of our best players in the 2nd.
If he had brought on subs earlier and nothing came of it the same people would be complaining about taking off better players too early....
Spot on and I back Ole.
He needs to sort it.
The question still stands... What's the point of making subs in 87th minute?
If the bench is not good enough then you don't make changes.
If it's because players are tired, then you make changes earlier.
This thread is just dumb.
It's only an excuse for those Ole Out Brigade to use it as a platform to voice their agenda-driven opinions. None of us here have ever played never mind managed at the highest levels and yet some of you lot are thinking its FIFA20 and the answers are so obvious.
Why would any manager at the highest level or even at the championship level -- who sees his players day in, day out at the training pitch or the match, not play their subs till the 87th minute?
The answer is OBVIOUS and yet... five pages later....
The topic should be ''who do we need to get to be game-changers from the bench?''
Not why unless you are intellectually challenged or have an agenda.
It's only an excuse for those Ole Out Brigade to use it as a platform to voice their agenda-driven opinions. None of us here have ever played never mind managed at the highest levels and yet some of you lot are thinking its FIFA20 and the answers are so obvious.
Why would any manager at the highest level or even at the championship level -- who sees his players day in, day out at the training pitch or the match, not play their subs till the 87th minute?
The answer is OBVIOUS and yet... five pages later....
The topic should be ''who do we need to get to be game-changers from the bench?''
Not why unless you are intellectually challenged or have an agenda.
Good morning, this aint a new thing. Also for those calling players on the bench shit, now thats fecking funny. Regardless do i agree or not with that notion, still its fecking funny.
Ighalo and others are now shit, because they need to be used as a shield but when people had a go at club, Ole for signing him, they were nuked probably by the same ones that are using quality of a bench as excuse now by calling them shit.
Ighalo and others are now shit, because they need to be used as a shield but when people had a go at club, Ole for signing him, they were nuked probably by the same ones that are using quality of a bench as excuse now by calling them shit.
Managers aren't gods. They make mistakes and judge poorly from time to time.
They think they know more than Ole 'supersub' Solskjaer about the quality or characteristics a game changing sub requires!
If OGS isn't making substitutions to help change games, then the subs are in real trouble.
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Would love to know which magic players from the bench you think Ole should bring on?
Sometimes its baffling when fans scream for the manager to make some subs as if there is a Genie sitting on the bench. I think its been proven time and time again we have shite players sat on the bench. Our first eleven when even 70% fit are better than them.
Your complaining about waiting till 87 mins to make subs. We were even worse from the 87th min till the 96th min than we were before that!
I trust Ole. He isn't a fool. If he believes that the players on the field are much more capable of bailing us out of trouble then the board must do something about it. At the moment is looks like a repeat of 2018 summer transfer window.
Get better players in and you will see Ole making changes that could help salvage a game.
Get better players in and you will see Ole making changes that could help salvage a game.
I respect your view but can you point out anything he did in the 2nd half ?
I would be one of the first to criticize Ole if it warrented it, and I'm someone who also thinks he needs to be quicker with subs, but this wasn't the match to criticize him in regards to subs. Its quite clear our bench options are crap. We saw James have tons of space in front of him, and to his right, with 2 defenders by him (one in front, one behind), yet he chose to go inbetween both of them and lost the ball. The one time he had an opportunity to utilize his pace with so much space to not lose the ball, and he made the dumbest decision. It's quite clear he doesn't have the quality right now, which is why he's not a strong threat to bench any of our forwards.
Our players were creating more than enough chances. We just didn't finish them. Hard to blame him considering that.
If there is anything to criticize him on, it's probably Williams. He could have taken him out earlier. However, that doesn't change the fact that we should have won the match going forward. We dominated the match, but didn't take our chances.
Our players were creating more than enough chances. We just didn't finish them. Hard to blame him considering that.
If there is anything to criticize him on, it's probably Williams. He could have taken him out earlier. However, that doesn't change the fact that we should have won the match going forward. We dominated the match, but didn't take our chances.
Exactly what I think. Some people trying to be cute with their double standard.
Sums it up for me. Could have been 2 goals up and cruising. Sure, after , it is easy to criticize, but, wrong decisions (forwards) cost us and when Sevilla flipped to full press we struggled.
It's actually hilarious how little Ole trusts our bench. We really need more signings.
Its not for the lack of testing. They have been used enough times to realise that they cant play the system he wants.
I'm not really sure why Ighalos deal was extended as he has hardly kicked a ball in months.
no question that if we had options such as Sancho, Greenwood or Grealish on the bench we would be seeing subs out on with time to influence the game.
no question that if we had options such as Sancho, Greenwood or Grealish on the bench we would be seeing subs out on with time to influence the game.
And one of the reasons we struggled was because our players were tired and didn't have the energy to keep up with Sevilla's workrate.
I was mighty pissed off last night about ole not making any subs but with some time to calm down, I do recognize that anyone we would have bought on would be a downgrade on those that were on the pitch.
Ighalo for martial, lingard or mata for greenwood, James for rashford or matic for pogba were all worse options.
Not a single game changer on the bench and frankly what else can ole do if the players on the pitch miss every opportunity they create.
Ighalo for martial, lingard or mata for greenwood, James for rashford or matic for pogba were all worse options.
Not a single game changer on the bench and frankly what else can ole do if the players on the pitch miss every opportunity they create.
No complaints. A lot of people can be made to look like a 'genius' in hindsight'. Looking at the stats....we created the chances. We just missed them. It is a lesson to the team. We have made strides this season but lost in semi finals.....that can be a great incentive to players/teams to push on but it only takes a second to create a chances. Sadly it weren't meant to be.
9/10 we win that games. Based on the performance. But we've been met last two games but pretty good opposing goalkeeping displays. We created a fair number of chances against a good team.
9/10 we win that games. Based on the performance. But we've been met last two games but pretty good opposing goalkeeping displays. We created a fair number of chances against a good team.
But Luuk fkin de Jong is capable and better than our subs?
No quality on the bench is simply not a valid excuse. A change of tempo was needed, Rashford was horrendous making basically no impact. Sure Mata/Lingard are slower than him, but they offer something different, something new for a defender to deal with. Heck even James who is more limited than a cardboard box offers something different because he's willing to try to take his man on.
It's not about bringing Messi off the bench to win the game for you, but it's rather to change the game when you see that you're setup isn't working.
If bench is such shitt why did he even bother making changes in the 87th minute then?
Around 55-60th mark Rashford should have been off, Ighalo should have been brought on and Martial moved to the left, that would surely have changed the game.
It's not about bringing Messi off the bench to win the game for you, but it's rather to change the game when you see that you're setup isn't working.
If bench is such shitt why did he even bother making changes in the 87th minute then?
Around 55-60th mark Rashford should have been off, Ighalo should have been brought on and Martial moved to the left, that would surely have changed the game.
Seems like a Mourinho-esque sulk to the board 'look what I have to work with'.
Lot of people saying Ole should have changed it and brought on fresh legs. Maybe he should have as some of our players were tiring - especially Williams. However, we really don't have much strength in depth on the bench to bring on players who can make an impact. At the end of the day it was a judgement call on whether tired but quality players can dig deep and find something extra within themselves to be decisive or a fresh but relatively poor sub can be lucky and have his moment of glory. I don't think it was such a black and white decision to launch an inquisition on Ole's in game management capability. Ultimately, for us to move forward and progress as a team we need to get better quality on the bench so that we don't burn out the difference makers. With the benefit of hindsight you can argue that Ole made the wrong call but with the chances we had, we should have finished them off much earlier. That's an area where the players can improve - how to perform at the big stage and be decisive at the right time. I am happy with the overall progress of the team and I really believe with 2-3 quality additions and with this team gaining more experience, we are moving in the right direction and can win something in the next 1-2 years.
Our team got worse when we brought on the subs, such was our lack of quality on the bench. Doing that sooner was unlikely to influence the outcome.
But when our good players are performing bad? You're then keeping a tired
Sevilla won the game only thanks to their manager. The players that he brought on just had more energy in them while ours were dying on their very last legs. Ighalo on and in the center, with Rashy taken off was the the most obvious choice. Making subs on 87th minute while having no time to lift a kitchen sink nevermind throwing it at the opposition was horrific. If he made the subs on and still lost, it would have been understandable, but his half-measures produced 2 defeats in the last two semis. We were better than Sevilla players-wise, but their manager was bettter than Ole.
He was an £11m signing for them last summer after scoring 28 goals for PSV last season. Yes he probably is.