We are an awfully coached team

[Hugh Jass]

One thing i have noticed is that teams who play a high line against us, get in trouble. Sociedad, RB, City.

Its when teams sit back, that we struggle.

I am unsure whether we need a new Striker or new RW to beat teams that sit back.

 

[Ludens the Red]

Are we an awfully coached team?

No, probably not. But to how much of an extent is pretty impossible to say without defining the term first (which btw. also applies to terms like patterns of play).

If we define it by being prepared for matches, knowing about key players of the opposition, finding an appropriate lineup and formation, then we are obviously not awfully coached. We might not be masterfully coached in all situations, but certainly not awfully.

If we define the term by having some and having implemented some passing routines (or patterns of play) to improve our handling of certain situations in a match, or with addressing weaknesses in our play than it is way more difficult to just shrug the question of. (I mean who isn't at least a bit puzzled by the fact that we are usually pretty suspect defending set pieces since ages?)

Passing routines and/or patterns of play is something different than a system or a tactic for me. It sits on way more tangible level and is more specific. When I say it I mean prepared and to some extent revised and trained movements with and without the ball. Often tiki-taka or Klopps Liverpool are mentioned in that context and I think that's in a way correct but they created whole systems out of shedloads of patterns of play. If we mix all those terms and meanings together, of course you can come to the conclusion that we as a team might not be ready to use that kind of thing, but it isnt a tiki-taka system that most on here want to see being introduced but only some minor parts of it.

Lets get one thing out of the way, because I know it has been discussed here lately: it certainly isn't either patterns of play or individual brilliance. One can cover deficits of the other but the best teams of the previous years showed, that you gain a lot from partnering both concepts with each other. Manchester United should certainly explore that approach as it would open some doors that currently seem to be locked.

Prepared "maneuvers" would increase the speed of play which then would lead to providing less comfort for opposition teams and defenses against us. Right now, we make it relatively easy for them to stay in shape because we move the ball with a slow pace. Having some routines would not only tackle the issue of individual brilliance, it could also help the speed of play and it will add an element of off-the-ball-movement. It would also give some level of security to some of our players, when they recognize a prepared move they know where to be and which area is taken care of, less insecurity more room to focus on execution. It also would relief a bit of the creative burden, that is currently more or less solely on the shoulders of Bruno and Rashford.

For example one such move could be: Shaw receives the ball from the CB after a goalkick when he is around the halfway line, this triggers the move, the LW will come short, the CAM will move into space, ready to receive the ball from Shaw or the LW. He is then able to have some quick interplay with either the CM or the ST or the LW, who, if he pulled his defender out of position by coming short to Shaw, can then start to attack that space ready to receive the ball for a cross. The benefit of this prepared move would be, that Shaw only has to find out if CAM is reachable or not, if he isn't he either picks the easy ball to LW or CM. If anything goes south one of the CB will be ready to punt the ball forward. This might be stupid example, I am not a coach at the end of the day, but I think it shows the thing I have in mind. The benefits are obvious to me. Having one or two such moves ready will never be anything that harms us.


I have seen the notion, that patterns of play or an "all-too-rigid"-system would also be an issue as it would be easier to counter it. Well, at first, the level of rigidity is decided by the manager. It is not intended to restrict free decisions by competent players - it is only meant to create more and more promising options. And lets not pretend that Manchester United has a well-working freeflowing system that we should do anything to not disturb. We usually do not create much high-percentage chances, so why not adapt some new tools for the players to use. Not only that but the move I described might happen exactly like that without any preparation anyway but it wont be as fast then. If our experiences with such moves are good we could deploy more or different ones which then also will help us, to better define what sort of players we need to target for transfer or to promote from the academy.

To be honest, in my view there is not even a little downside to that. On the contrary I think that the approach, that seems to be the most supported on here, to just wait and hope for a successful summer transfer window, is irresponsible (in my personal view). We all know United's transfer activities over the last years, we know their issues. We already have been informed about the shortages due to the effects of the pandemic. On top of that, probably there will be an international tournament happening during the summer - so the odds in my view are pretty dire.

We have to find ways to play better with the players available. Of course we should (and have to) strengthen the squad. Of course a more systematic approach will not automatically lead to unlimited success but it would be a step in the right direction (as I would consider such an approach as pretty modern). Pochettino, Rose, Nagelsmann, Bielsa, Potter - patterns of play enable their teams to punch above their weight so there must be something that is at the very least worth exploring. I dont care if we add another assistant coach who is able to do that, or if Carrick and McKenna get together and find some ways - but the game evolves and we have to keep in touch with it.

There is no valid reason to not have this kind of thing as another (additional) arrow in the quiver. I cant speak for the other posters on here but I think, at least some of them see it exactly like that: an additional arrow next to the arrows we already have (and where the fanbase seems so divided about their respective qualities). Diminishing that aspect of the game just because somebody threw a thing that looked alike as criticism against the manager is a very bad idea.

(on a personal note: 1st post on redcafe after at least 8 years of reading, happy to be here)

Great post . I think it should be bookmarked at the top of the thread. It’d probably end all debate .

 

[Polar]

Have to say I admire City’s possession play even though it’s not always very efficient. United is clearly a better counterattacking team. On Sunday we looked sharper and more dangerous than City, but many value possession play more highly than counterattacking football.

Possession play require higher individual or technical skills, especially in the CM positions. That’s also why City and many other teams plays better possession football than us. Lets face the fact. Both Fred and McT have other strengths than playmaking and offensive technical skills. They aren’t “distributors”. When we solely talk about these skills, I don’t think our CM quality is among top 6 in PL. So I understand why we focus so much on counterattacks. Isn’t efficient football and good coaching about playing on team’s strengths; take advantage of the squad quality and try to camouflage weaknesses?

We should stop dreaming and accept that our squad have some limitations when it comes to possession play. How can we expect Fred, McT, James and Greenwood to play City, Liverpool or Barcelona style of football? Shouldn’t we be happy when our team is able to fulfill it’s potential? We occupy the second place despite some limitations when it comes to technical skills and possession play.

 

[NZT-One]

Where did this notion come from that playing direct football is somehow shit and beneath us? Fergie always did that and i cant recall people moaning about it then. Do people long for the days we tried to bore the opposition to death under Van Gaal?

Yeah, it would be nice to "dominate" all the lesser teams, but we are not quite there yet and teams that consistently dominate lesser teams in the league is quite rare. The best versions of the top clubs manage to do it from time to time, but doing it in a competitive league like the PL is not exactly an easy task

I think nobody says that this is beneath us. And if you try a little harder I am sure you will remember a lot of times, when there has been lots of moaning about Fergies ways to set us up. I remember the dark 4-5-1 days, with Fletcher, Park and O'Shea, when we had all that firepower in 2009. So lets not pretend, that this is unheard of and has never been here before.

I also think, it is a bit odd to depict the matter as an EITHER Ole-style-counter attacking setup OR a Van-Gaal-Possession-borefest. I am sure, you are very aware of the fact, that there is a lot in between. If we want to be seen as a top team, solely excelling in counter-attacking is not going to be enough. We have the evidence for it right in front of or noses: most teams know our strength is when there is room to attack and our struggles lie where there is no room to attack. I am not so sure how much of what we see is some sort of "not quite there yet" or more of a "lets play this way against Man United because it often works so well". Have a look at Thiago at Liverpool - you will not become better (i.e. more effective with the ball as a team) by only adding one or even two players, not even when it is such a class player. There is more to it - remember Swansea a couple of years ago? They played a system based on possession when their best player was Leon Britton(!). So we not doing it, cannot be simply down to personal.

Do not misunderstand it as thin-air criticism directed to the manager - I was rooting for setting us up deeper and countering since the Mourinho-days (I was rooting even louder when we decided to add Maguire) because it suits our players skillsets very well. Ole did that and to some success. Well done, but at least since the 2nd half of last season, I was expecting some sort of development to a more dominant way of playing, lets say a better mixture of possession based and transition based. And again, I am sure nobody here expects tiki-taka. But the way we played against some of the minor teams was brutal... I am sure you agree on that? And to only just put that down to players form or players ability is lazy.

 

[Foxbatt]

Are we an awfully coached team?

No, probably not. But to how much of an extent is pretty impossible to say without defining the term first (which btw. also applies to terms like patterns of play).

If we define it by being prepared for matches, knowing about key players of the opposition, finding an appropriate lineup and formation, then we are obviously not awfully coached. We might not be masterfully coached in all situations, but certainly not awfully.

If we define the term by having some and having implemented some passing routines (or patterns of play) to improve our handling of certain situations in a match, or with addressing weaknesses in our play than it is way more difficult to just shrug the question of. (I mean who isn't at least a bit puzzled by the fact that we are usually pretty suspect defending set pieces since ages?)

Passing routines and/or patterns of play is something different than a system or a tactic for me. It sits on way more tangible level and is more specific. When I say it I mean prepared and to some extent revised and trained movements with and without the ball. Often tiki-taka or Klopps Liverpool are mentioned in that context and I think that's in a way correct but they created whole systems out of shedloads of patterns of play. If we mix all those terms and meanings together, of course you can come to the conclusion that we as a team might not be ready to use that kind of thing, but it isnt a tiki-taka system that most on here want to see being introduced but only some minor parts of it.

Lets get one thing out of the way, because I know it has been discussed here lately: it certainly isn't either patterns of play or individual brilliance. One can cover deficits of the other but the best teams of the previous years showed, that you gain a lot from partnering both concepts with each other. Manchester United should certainly explore that approach as it would open some doors that currently seem to be locked.

Prepared "maneuvers" would increase the speed of play which then would lead to providing less comfort for opposition teams and defenses against us. Right now, we make it relatively easy for them to stay in shape because we move the ball with a slow pace. Having some routines would not only tackle the issue of individual brilliance, it could also help the speed of play and it will add an element of off-the-ball-movement. It would also give some level of security to some of our players, when they recognize a prepared move they know where to be and which area is taken care of, less insecurity more room to focus on execution. It also would relief a bit of the creative burden, that is currently more or less solely on the shoulders of Bruno and Rashford.

For example one such move could be: Shaw receives the ball from the CB after a goalkick when he is around the halfway line, this triggers the move, the LW will come short, the CAM will move into space, ready to receive the ball from Shaw or the LW. He is then able to have some quick interplay with either the CM or the ST or the LW, who, if he pulled his defender out of position by coming short to Shaw, can then start to attack that space ready to receive the ball for a cross. The benefit of this prepared move would be, that Shaw only has to find out if CAM is reachable or not, if he isn't he either picks the easy ball to LW or CM. If anything goes south one of the CB will be ready to punt the ball forward. This might be stupid example, I am not a coach at the end of the day, but I think it shows the thing I have in mind. The benefits are obvious to me. Having one or two such moves ready will never be anything that harms us.


I have seen the notion, that patterns of play or an "all-too-rigid"-system would also be an issue as it would be easier to counter it. Well, at first, the level of rigidity is decided by the manager. It is not intended to restrict free decisions by competent players - it is only meant to create more and more promising options. And lets not pretend that Manchester United has a well-working freeflowing system that we should do anything to not disturb. We usually do not create much high-percentage chances, so why not adapt some new tools for the players to use. Not only that but the move I described might happen exactly like that without any preparation anyway but it wont be as fast then. If our experiences with such moves are good we could deploy more or different ones which then also will help us, to better define what sort of players we need to target for transfer or to promote from the academy.

To be honest, in my view there is not even a little downside to that. On the contrary I think that the approach, that seems to be the most supported on here, to just wait and hope for a successful summer transfer window, is irresponsible (in my personal view). We all know United's transfer activities over the last years, we know their issues. We already have been informed about the shortages due to the effects of the pandemic. On top of that, probably there will be an international tournament happening during the summer - so the odds in my view are pretty dire.

We have to find ways to play better with the players available. Of course we should (and have to) strengthen the squad. Of course a more systematic approach will not automatically lead to unlimited success but it would be a step in the right direction (as I would consider such an approach as pretty modern). Pochettino, Rose, Nagelsmann, Bielsa, Potter - patterns of play enable their teams to punch above their weight so there must be something that is at the very least worth exploring. I dont care if we add another assistant coach who is able to do that, or if Carrick and McKenna get together and find some ways - but the game evolves and we have to keep in touch with it.

There is no valid reason to not have this kind of thing as another (additional) arrow in the quiver. I cant speak for the other posters on here but I think, at least some of them see it exactly like that: an additional arrow next to the arrows we already have (and where the fanbase seems so divided about their respective qualities). Diminishing that aspect of the game just because somebody threw a thing that looked alike as criticism against the manager is a very bad idea.

(on a personal note: 1st post on redcafe after at least 8 years of reading, happy to be here)

Agree with you. As you say players also need to be intelligent. The second goal against City was a very good example. As soon as Henderson got the ball James sprinted to the right, Bruno also sprinted to the right while Martial sprinted to the centre circle and Rashford to the left. City was expecting him to pass or throw it to one of our CBs. He took all the pressing out of it by throwing to Shaw. I would say that it would have been discussed previously on the training ground.
The other thing I noticed was that Maguire didn't try to bring the ball out of defense and delay the pass as he normally do.
Maybe it that we are practicing more in passing the ball quicker and keeping a high tempo?
If we pass well and keep a high tempo we can compete with anyone. Plus if Martial played like he did against City of course.

 

[Ole's screen]

During what timeframe do you reckon he should do that?

I’m just asking because we seem to be the same team as when he got the job two years ago in terms of strengths and weaknesses and what type of team we struggle against, and we’ve spent a ton of money in that time period. That’s my biggest problem with Ole, I don’t think he’s capable of it beyond the universal strategy of buying better players. Not for a lack of trying but based on his two years in charge.

Genuinely asking, do you reckon that some ideas take more than two years to implement for a manager?

If you genuinely believe our strengths and weaknesses are the same since Ole took over I’d seriously question your football knowledge. The only common thing about the sides is the they can counter attack well.
Apart from the the team now presses much higher, defends much more on the front foot and is weaker on set prices than when Ole took over.
In regards to in possession we are much better at building up play from the back without resorting to having our fullbacks hoof it up to the striker or the flanks. Our midfielders are much faster in getting the ball up to our forwards and when we attack there is a commitment to getting forwards. Often you’ll see 6 players breaking their necks to attack where’s under Jose you saw only 3.

Add this to this that you hardly ever see us in a back 6 now even against City whereas you saw that basically every week before Ole.

I’m genuinely flabbergasted how you think the teams aren’t miles apart in their attitude and tactics.

 

[Anustart89]

If you genuinely believe our strengths and weaknesses are the same since Ole took over I’d seriously question your football knowledge. The only common thing about the sides is the they can counter attack well.
Apart from the the team now presses much higher, defends much more on the front foot and is weaker on set prices than when Ole took over.
In regards to in possession we are much better at building up play from the back without resorting to having our fullbacks hoof it up to the striker or the flanks. Our midfielders are much faster in getting the ball up to our forwards and when we attack there is a commitment to getting forwards. Often you’ll see 6 players breaking their necks to attack where’s under Jose you saw only 3.

Add this to this that you hardly ever see us in a back 6 now even against City whereas you saw that basically every week before Ole.

I’m genuinely flabbergasted how you think the teams aren’t miles apart in their attitude and tactics.

What I meant was that our team is still a team that does well when afforded space on the counter and still struggles with breaking down a low block. Do you disagree with that notion?

Our press is better in general, but we pressed really well during Ole’s stint as caretaker too, but our press is very different depending on who plays, which leads me to think that the players themselves have a big responsibility as to when to trigger the press. For example, there’s a big difference in pressing from the front when Martial plays and when anyone else plays up front. Bruno very often leads the press, and it was obvious when he signed that our pressing game changed since you can literally see him calling for teammates to join the press who weren’t thinking of pressing before Bruno started waving his arms. We have also replaced Matic in the side who doesn’t have the legs to effectively press, so that’s another personnel issue for me. As for passing out from the back, yeah, we’ve signed better players that are better with the ball at their feet, so that goes without saying that we’ll be better on the ball with central defenders being bought for their ball-playing ability and defenders lacking in that area being ostracised from the squad and sold.

So like I asked in the original post aimed at the other poster: how long is a reasonable timeframe to expect a manager to come up with ideas as to breaking down a low block? And especially for a side that’ll face these opponents more often than opponents who really come at you. Two years and a couple hundred million quid isn’t enough? If not, how long? I mean, I’m just an idiot on the internet and even I could improve the team if I was given hundreds of million pounds over more than two years and the bar was “buy better players with better attributes and be able to play well against one play style that the minority of teams use against you”.

I just think that for me it’s obvious that Ole’s taken us as far as he can as a manager and I think that given the same amount of resources, there are other managers out there who would be doing better with the players at Ole’s disposal. He should be heavily credited for turning things around after Jose and improving squad mentality and morale though. It would set up the next guy nicely, but it’s obvious that Ole will get a run at it until it goes tits up at which point the new guy will start all over.

 

[humiliated]

Agree with you. As you say players also need to be intelligent. The second goal against City was a very good example. As soon as Henderson got the ball James sprinted to the right, Bruno also sprinted to the right while Martial sprinted to the centre circle and Rashford to the left. City was expecting him to pass or throw it to one of our CBs. He took all the pressing out of it by throwing to Shaw. I would say that it would have been discussed previously on the training ground.
The other thing I noticed was that Maguire didn't try to bring the ball out of defense and delay the pass as he normally do.
Maybe it that we are practicing more in passing the ball quicker and keeping a high tempo?
If we pass well and keep a high tempo we can compete with anyone. Plus if Martial played like he did against City of course.

I don't quite get this ' Martial had a great game against City ' thing . The guy missed 2 glorious chances , which seemed easier to score !

 

[Bobcat]

I think nobody says that this is beneath us. And if you try a little harder I am sure you will remember a lot of times, when there has been lots of moaning about Fergies ways to set us up. I remember the dark 4-5-1 days, with Fletcher, Park and O'Shea, when we had all that firepower in 2009. So lets not pretend, that this is unheard of and has never been here before.

I also think, it is a bit odd to depict the matter as an EITHER Ole-style-counter attacking setup OR a Van-Gaal-Possession-borefest. I am sure, you are very aware of the fact, that there is a lot in between. If we want to be seen as a top team, solely excelling in counter-attacking is not going to be enough. We have the evidence for it right in front of or noses: most teams know our strength is when there is room to attack and our struggles lie where there is no room to attack. I am not so sure how much of what we see is some sort of "not quite there yet" or more of a "lets play this way against Man United because it often works so well". Have a look at Thiago at Liverpool - you will not become better (i.e. more effective with the ball as a team) by only adding one or even two players, not even when it is such a class player. There is more to it - remember Swansea a couple of years ago? They played a system based on possession when their best player was Leon Britton(!). So we not doing it, cannot be simply down to personal.

Do not misunderstand it as thin-air criticism directed to the manager - I was rooting for setting us up deeper and countering since the Mourinho-days (I was rooting even louder when we decided to add Maguire) because it suits our players skillsets very well. Ole did that and to some success. Well done, but at least since the 2nd half of last season, I was expecting some sort of development to a more dominant way of playing, lets say a better mixture of possession based and transition based. And again, I am sure nobody here expects tiki-taka. But the way we played against some of the minor teams was brutal... I am sure you agree on that? And to only just put that down to players form or players ability is lazy.

No doubt people moaned during Fergie as well. People moaned when we lost and people moaned when we played badly, but i can recall people making grand, sweeping statements about our coaching nor did i hear anything about vague nonsense like patterns of play. Maybe i was a bit unclear, but i am not suggesting we are a counter attacking team, i am just opposed to the ide that its somehow "worse" than possession oriented sides as i personally find the former more entertaining. Teams like Swansea and Brighton now, who play possession football on a small budget tend to get incredibly overrated by fans and especially pundits. Even if they manage 60% possession against a "big" side now and then and have a couple of very well worked team goals throughout the season, at the end of the day, they're not bringing home any trophies

We've had games this year like WBA and Palace recently where we have been beyond shit. But us that all down to coaching? Pretty sure most people agree Klopp is a terrific coach, but look at Liverpool now. Not only are the results bad, they are genuinely terrible too. But if anyone suggested thats only down to bad or lacking coaching, people would think you were mental

There is a reason teams bother with low blocks, because they are incredibly hard to penetrate and teams who consistently manage to beat them are usually league champions or a close second. No doubt we struggle with low blocks, but so does most other teams.

Imo the most reliable way to beat them are either to get quality deliveries from wide areas or to somehow thread your way through two banks of defenders. None of our "wingers" nor our fullbacks are specialist crossers, and besides Cavani none of our strikers are particularly good at getting at the end of (and putting away) those crosses. Again with Liverpool as an example, last year and the season before, they consistently beat low blocks because they had TAA and Robertson who consistently put in dangerous crosses

If you want to thread through the middle you need players that are experts at manipulating small spaces, through dribbling and/or clever short passes and movement. In our squad we have Bruno, Martial, Pogba and Mata who fits that description. Martial and Pogba has been in terrible form and/or injured for most of the season and Mata has apparently vanished. Maybe he pissed in Oles tea? Either way, if you look at City, they have players like Sterling, Mahrez, Gundogan, KDB and Foden who are all very good at exactly that

Considering the extreme amount of games and little rest we've had since March 2020, i'd say it was inevitable that we started to look a bit leggy at the end of this season. Not going to deny we have been brutal in some games lately, and maybe coaching is an issue too, but i'd argue there are other, more important factors at play too. I am one of those who have been banging on the Grealish drum for years now and am 100% confident he would add a whole new dimension to our attack if we got our hand on him. Not saying hes clearly superior to the ones we got already, just think hes going to add something we currently are missing

 

[wolvored]

I think you can put it in a nutshell with the amount of money that has been invested over the years.
Win trophies regular > well coached.
Win little or nothing > awfully coached.
So far the OP is right. We are an awfully coached team. Playing well in one game against the top team isnt new. We did it most of the time with Atkinson.

 

[Leftback99]

I think you can put it in a nutshell with the amount of money that has been invested over the years.
Win trophies regular > well coached.
Win little or nothing > awfully coached.
So far the OP is right. We are an awfully coached team. Playing well in one game against the top team isnt new. We did it most of the time with Atkinson.

Far from it. Any average PL manager (and coaching staff) would be regularly challenging for trophies if that amount of money was spent well. 2013-2019 it could barely have been spent worse.

 

[wolvored]

Far from it. Any average PL manager (and coaching staff) would be regularly challenging for trophies if that amount of money was spent well. 2013-2019 it could barely have been spent worse.

I agree.

 

[GoldTrafford99]

During what timeframe do you reckon he should do that?

I’m just asking because we seem to be the same team as when he got the job two years ago in terms of strengths and weaknesses and what type of team we struggle against, and we’ve spent a ton of money in that time period. That’s my biggest problem with Ole, I don’t think he’s capable of it beyond the universal strategy of buying better players. Not for a lack of trying but based on his two years in charge.

Genuinely asking, do you reckon that some ideas take more than two years to implement for a manager?

Let's ask that question to Sir Alex Ferguson...

Alex, over to you...

 

[Anustart89]

Let's ask that question to Sir Alex Ferguson...

Alex, over to you...

Ah yes good that Ole’s dealing with the drinking culture prevalent in today’s game. Football’s the exact same as it was in the 80’s and Ole had the same pedigree before joining United that Sir Alex did. Gotcha.

It’s interesting that you ask a simple question and it’s absolutely impossible to get a response to that question without the answer being a tangent or some snarky comment.

How many years [...] can simply be answered with a number one to infinity but that response is impossible to give because somehow the responses always end up being about something else.

 

[Zlatan 7]

There is a difference between counter attacking and being direct. Not sure many people see this difference.

 

[Robbie Boy]

There is a difference between counter attacking and being direct. Not sure many people see this difference.

I mean, it's a pretty huge and obvious difference, no?

 

[L1nk]

Let's ask that question to Sir Alex Ferguson...

Alex, over to you...

Thanks Gold.

You see, when I took over it was 1986, around 35 years ago infact, and I inherited a team that were drinkers and the fitness was appalling, the entire culture around the game and everything else was completely different.

Do not compare the team or the time Sir Alex Ferguson took over to the team and the time that Solskjaer has taken over. They will never be comparable, just as the men will never be comparable, Ole is okay but he will never be a Fergie, he will not even be a tier under Fergie by the time he stops managing.

The comparisons to Klopp and Ferguson etc are embarassing considering he's never shown anything that would put him in that bracket of manager

 

[GoldTrafford99]

Thanks Gold.

You see, when I took over it was 1986, around 35 years ago infact, and I inherited a team that were drinkers and the fitness was appalling, the entire culture around the game and everything else was completely different.

Do not compare the team or the time Sir Alex Ferguson took over to the team and the time that Solskjaer has taken over. They will never be comparable, just as the men will never be comparable, Ole is okay but he will never be a Fergie, he will not even be a tier under Fergie by the time he stops managing.

The comparisons to Klopp and Ferguson etc are embarassing considering he's never shown anything that would put him in that bracket of manager

You do know that ALL teams had drink culture, right?

Fergie took the 6 years to shake it off and rid United of that drink culture to give us the advantage over the long-haul...

United finished 4th before Fergie took over... higher than when Ole took over... Anyway, Fergie took us backwards, to 11th twice, then to 13th, before taking us higher.

To build a dynasty it takes time.

 

[Zlatan 7]

I mean, it's a pretty huge and obvious difference, no?

You’d think so yes

 

[Anustart89]

You do know that ALL teams had drink culture, right?

Fergie took the 6 years to shake it off and rid United of that drink culture to give us the advantage over the long-haul...

United finished 4th before Fergie took over... higher than when Ole took over... Anyway, Fergie took us backwards, to 11th twice, then to 13th, before taking us higher.

To build a dynasty it takes time.

And based on current evidence, you expect Ole to build a dynasty? Fair enough, let’s agree to disagree then.

 

[BlahRules]

I always knew we were an awfully coached team but after watching Juventus yesterday I am having second thoughts.

 

[Halftrack]

I mean, it's a pretty huge and obvious difference, no?

It is, but you'll still find people moaning about us being a counter attacking team. Some people just think breaking at pace=counter attack, regardless of where the ball was won or what the other team was doing with it.

 

[wolvored]

You do know that ALL teams had drink culture, right?

Fergie took the 6 years to shake it off and rid United of that drink culture to give us the advantage over the long-haul...

United finished 4th before Fergie took over... higher than when Ole took over... Anyway, Fergie took us backwards, to 11th twice, then to 13th, before taking us higher.

To build a dynasty it takes time.

I can see where you are coming from, but Fergies time and now are different. Utd were owned by football man then Louie Edwards and he was looking for a Busby and didnt mind giving a manager time. Now we need a manager to come in and turn the club around immediately as the glazers aint football people and only chasing the fast buck-Champions league football. Ole will be safe as long as we finish top four. The first season he doesnt he will be gone. you only have to look at VG. He won the FA cup, yet was sacked the next day because we were just outside top 4. Moyes was kept and kept until it was impossible to finish top 4. Mourinho knew he would be sacked that 3rd season, so just slagged everybody off so he could leave and say he got us to 2nd.

 

[GoldTrafford99]

And based on current evidence, you expect Ole to build a dynasty? Fair enough, let’s agree to disagree then.

Well... based on current evidence, I see that Ole is building a team. And a team that could be together for many, many years. So yes, a dynasty if you will. Will it be successful? I sure hope so. I would love it to be.

But none of us know, because all of the main work has been done in the background and so many questions are yet to be answered, they won't be answered for years.

Have you seen - and are you taking into account at all in your opinion - the amount of teenage talent Ole has had purchased over the past couple of years? Like literally the envy of world football...

But it's all being built.

 

[GoldTrafford99]

I can see where you are coming from, but Fergies time and now are different. Utd were owned by football man then Louie Edwards and he was looking for a Busby and didnt mind giving a manager time. Now we need a manager to come in and turn the club around immediately as the glazers aint football people and only chasing the fast buck-Champions league football. Ole will be safe as long as we finish top four. The first season he doesnt he will be gone. you only have to look at VG. He won the FA cup, yet was sacked the next day because we were just outside top 4. Moyes was kept and kept until it was impossible to finish top 4. Mourinho knew he would be sacked that 3rd season, so just slagged everybody off so he could leave and say he got us to 2nd.

I don't agree with you there my friend. I do think you're right - the Glazers did want that. Or Woodward certainly did. He was desperate to be successful. So desperate. It was cringeworthy; hiring and firing managers, buying big name players.

But the plan Ole laid out for Woodward, after the burnings Woodward felt from having to sack LvG and then Mourinho and realising his Galactico plan wasn't going to work at United, tells me that the board and the owners and EVERYBODY AT THE CLUB is now onside with seeing Ole's plan through. We have returned to being the Manchester United we should always be. We are all planning for the long-term here.

Put it this way, if the club, and Woodward, weren't going for a 'long-term plan', they simply wouldn't have hired Solskjaer. It would have been whoever the next best manager in the world is...

And, honestly, look at all the signings under Ole, especially those who haven't even got into the first team yet. this is all long-term planning.

 

[Ole's screen]

What I meant was that our team is still a team that does well when afforded space on the counter and still struggles with breaking down a low block. Do you disagree with that notion?

Our press is better in general, but we pressed really well during Ole’s stint as caretaker too, but our press is very different depending on who plays, which leads me to think that the players themselves have a big responsibility as to when to trigger the press. For example, there’s a big difference in pressing from the front when Martial plays and when anyone else plays up front. Bruno very often leads the press, and it was obvious when he signed that our pressing game changed since you can literally see him calling for teammates to join the press who weren’t thinking of pressing before Bruno started waving his arms. We have also replaced Matic in the side who doesn’t have the legs to effectively press, so that’s another personnel issue for me. As for passing out from the back, yeah, we’ve signed better players that are better with the ball at their feet, so that goes without saying that we’ll be better on the ball with central defenders being bought for their ball-playing ability and defenders lacking in that area being ostracised from the squad and sold.

So like I asked in the original post aimed at the other poster: how long is a reasonable timeframe to expect a manager to come up with ideas as to breaking down a low block? And especially for a side that’ll face these opponents more often than opponents who really come at you. Two years and a couple hundred million quid isn’t enough? If not, how long? I mean, I’m just an idiot on the internet and even I could improve the team if I was given hundreds of million pounds over more than two years and the bar was “buy better players with better attributes and be able to play well against one play style that the minority of teams use against you”.

I just think that for me it’s obvious that Ole’s taken us as far as he can as a manager and I think that given the same amount of resources, there are other managers out there who would be doing better with the players at Ole’s disposal. He should be heavily credited for turning things around after Jose and improving squad mentality and morale though. It would set up the next guy nicely, but it’s obvious that Ole will get a run at it until it goes tits up at which point the new guy will start all over.

"but our press is very different depending on who plays, which leads me to think that the players themselves have a big responsibility as to when to trigger the press. For example, there’s a big difference in pressing from the front when Martial plays and when anyone else plays up front. "

I'm sorry, but this is true for EVERY team. Do you not think Liverpool press better with Firmino and Henderson than without them? Or that City press better with Jesus than Aguero? All coaches play to their players' strengths.

"how long is a reasonable timeframe to expect a manager to come up with ideas as to breaking down a low block? "

We have already come up with ideas to beat a low block. We have been beating low block teams all season. Just because we have 1 loss and a couple of draws against low block teams recently doesn't mean we don't have the tactics or the ability to break them down. What we lack is consistency as our best forward is pretty young at 23 and going through some injury troubles, one has been very out of form and we really don't have a right winger.

I just think that for me it’s obvious that Ole’s taken us as far as he can as a manager and I think that given the same amount of resources, there are other managers out there who would be doing better with the players at Ole’s disposal.

I'm sorry this is absolute bunk. It's not obvious at all. What is obvious to me is that it feels like I'm watching the club I fell in love with all those years ago again. That even if we don't win the title, we are still competitive against all the top teams and play with an attacking spirit and a never say die attitude. And the results haven't been bad either. We're headed for a 3rd place finish in Ole's first full season and a 2nd place finish in his second full season. To say he has taken us as far as he can is based on nothing but (and I gotta say it) your own insecurity about supporting a team without a hipster manager name in charge. (Sorry about that, might not apply to you personally but I have seen this sentiment in the undertone of a lot of similar "Ole has taken us as far as he can" argument).

I'd make an additional point worth considering. What is Manchester United? Well if you look at the history, we are a club that is ONLY successful with a long term manager in charge. We have only had 2 extended periods of success in our history, and both of them came under long term managers who took a fair amount of time before winning their first title. Imagine saying in 1989 that Fergie had taken us as far as he could? That would have been pretty obvious to you too right?

 

[L1nk]

Well... based on current evidence, I see that Ole is building a team. And a team that could be together for many, many years. So yes, a dynasty if you will. Will it be successful? I sure hope so. I would love it to be.

But none of us know, because all of the main work has been done in the background and so many questions are yet to be answered, they won't be answered for years.

Have you seen - and are you taking into account at all in your opinion - the amount of teenage talent Ole has had purchased over the past couple of years? Like literally the envy of world football...

But it's all being built.

If you are expecting us to become a dynasty in the ilk of the Fergie era just because it's Ole Solskjaer and he used to play for us, this is all going to end in tears for you i'm afraid, there is absolutely nothing to suggest we will ever become successful under Solskjaer right now. We're still technically in a battle for a top 4 place, we'd be even worse off if Liverpool didn't have such an unprecedented freefall.

 

[romufc]

If you are expecting us to become a dynasty in the ilk of the Fergie era just because it's Ole Solskjaer and he used to play for us, this is all going to end in tears for you i'm afraid, there is absolutely nothing to suggest we will ever become successful under Solskjaer right now. We're still technically in a battle for a top 4 place, we'd be even worse off if Liverpool didn't have such an unprecedented freefall.

Firstly, no one is expecting a Fergie like Dynasty but if you look at our squad. AWB, Shaw, Henderson, McTominay, Bruno, Rashy, Martial, Diallo, Donny, Greenwood etc are all 25 ish and then add Pogba, Maguire and the like who are 27/28 and coming to their prime shows we are building a team that hopefully can dominate for years not just a one off.

Well they have had a fall off, so we are where we are. Its the same year in year out, "We wouldnt have got 3rd if it weren't for Leicester and Chelsea's poor form"

 

[L1nk]

Firstly, no one is expecting a Fergie like Dynasty but if you look at our squad. AWB, Shaw, Henderson, McTominay, Bruno, Rashy, Martial, Diallo, Donny, Greenwood etc are all 25 ish and then add Pogba, Maguire and the like who are 27/28 and coming to their prime shows we are building a team that hopefully can dominate for years not just a one off.

Well they have had a fall off, so we are where we are. Its the same year in year out, "We wouldnt have got 3rd if it weren't for Leicester and Chelsea's poor form"

What? You are joking surely

Pogba should be gone, he's been shocking for a few seasons and he and his agent are constantly causing unrest in the media.
Maguire is average at best, barely worth half of the 80 million we paid
McTominay is average
Martial is nowhere near good or clinical enough to lead the line
Diallo is promising but completely untested
Donny is great at warming the bench and is barely getting any minutes

Need I go on?

You genuinely expect this team to dominate for years? We can't dominate anything for a single season, I genuinely cannot believe this delusion on display here, i would honestly love to know where you are getting this from, we will not dominate anything with this team under Solskjaer. You can quote on me on that and everyone can come back to this post years later.

 

[big rons sovereign]

What? You are joking surely

Pogba should be gone, he's been shocking for a few seasons and he and his agent are constantly causing unrest in the media.
Maguire is average at best, barely worth half of the 80 million we paid
McTominay is average
Martial is nowhere near good or clinical enough to lead the line
Diallo is promising but completely untested
Donny is great at warming the bench and is barely getting any minutes

Need I go on?

You genuinely expect this team to dominate for years? We can't dominate anything for a single season, I genuinely cannot believe this delusion on display here, i would honestly love to know where you are getting this from, we will not dominate anything with this team under Solskjaer. You can quote on me on that and everyone can come back to this post years later.

Any chance of next week's lottery numbers mate?

 

[Rozay]

What I hate is when people treat the desire for better passing and possession as some sort of clamour for LVG. That isn’t football.

Anyone watching Barcelona at the moment vs Paris will see an example of excellent possession football at a good tempo and progressive. They are passing the ball around in attacking areas and getting regular shots off without the requirement to attack 3 vs 2 to do so.

Attacking with purpose doesn’t mean profligacy with the ball.

 

[Stacks]

What I hate is when people treat the desire for better passing and possession as some sort of clamour for LVG. That isn’t football.

Anyone watching Barcelona at the moment vs Paris will see an example of excellent possession football at a good tempo and progressive. They are passing the ball around in attacking areas and getting regular shots off without the requirement to attack 3 vs 2 to do so.

Attacking with purpose doesn’t mean profligacy with the ball.

true but playing direct is not necessarily bad if you can score or create a good goal scoring opportunity more frequently than possession style

 

[Rozay]

true but playing direct is not necessarily bad if you can score or create a good goal scoring opportunity more frequently than possession style

Of course. I just don’t find it ‘deliberate’ enough, so to speak. All about ‘getting the ball into areas’ and the like - a game of percentages and mistakes. Any team in the world would like to attack 3 vs 3 or 3 vs 2 but that surely can’t be the entire plan?

I’m not really calling for side to side for the sake of it - but I do believe a better quality of chance will be created if you can be a little more precise and work yourself into good areas. Short passing with good off the ball movement is very difficult to defend - even for low blocks. Side to side and hopefully crossing can’t be the sum total. A quick one two or a triangle can quickly change the whole picture in front of you.

No matter what our supposed tactics are - there is no upside to passing poorly. Not only do we pass poorly, but we have very poor off the ball movement too. Everyone is making some huge fuss about how Edinson Cavani has come in and bothered to actually move when he doesn’t have the ball! But final third movement aside, I think the middle third movement is also poor. We don’t offer a short, five yard pass for the man in possession often enough. Give him a short pass, let him play a 5 yard one two and we are out of pressure and still moving forward.

 

[Isotope]

What I hate is when people treat the desire for better passing and possession as some sort of clamour for LVG. That isn’t football.

Anyone watching Barcelona at the moment vs Paris will see an example of excellent possession football at a good tempo and progressive. They are passing the ball around in attacking areas and getting regular shots off without the requirement to attack 3 vs 2 to do so.

Attacking with purpose doesn’t mean profligacy with the ball.

You see these teams in CL, they're all comfortable on the ball. For instance, Porto does not have a single player that cost them 50m or bigger, but you can see how comfortable their players are when receiving and passing the ball.

 

[Rozay]

You see these teams in CL, they're all comfortable on the ball. For instance, Porto does not have a single player that cost them 50m or bigger, but you can see how comfortable their players are when receiving and passing the ball.

That’s all I ask!

People keep saying this whole ‘it isn’t our style, we’re not a possession team’. What on earth is a ‘possession team?!!’. You need to pass the ball to progress up the pitch, the better you can do it, the better opportunities you will create for yourselves.

Leicester are a direct team, but Brendan Rogers has always been a manager who values the principles of possession. From his Swansea days. He’s brought Tielemans and Maddison into his team so that they can progress the ball from their own half to the opponent’s with quality and consistency. I think we can do both. It is the lack of movement that makes passing static IMO, which is an issue for us.

 

[Counterfactual]

Put it this way, if the club, and Woodward, weren't going for a 'long-term plan', they simply wouldn't have hired Solskjaer. It would have been whoever the next best manager in the world is...

I'm not sure they ever intended to have Ole as the permanent manager, but after the run he went on as caretaker, they simply couldn't sack him.

 

[Stacks]

Of course. I just don’t find it ‘deliberate’ enough, so to speak. All about ‘getting the ball into areas’ and the like - a game of percentages and mistakes. Any team in the world would like to attack 3 vs 3 or 3 vs 2 but that surely can’t be the entire plan?

I’m not really calling for side to side for the sake of it - but I do believe a better quality of chance will be created if you can be a little more precise and work yourself into good areas. Short passing with good off the ball movement is very difficult to defend - even for low blocks. Side to side and hopefully crossing can’t be the sum total. A quick one two or a triangle can quickly change the whole picture in front of you.

No matter what our supposed tactics are - there is no upside to passing poorly. Not only do we pass poorly, but we have very poor off the ball movement too. Everyone is making some huge fuss about how Edinson Cavani has come in and bothered to actually move when he doesn’t have the ball! But final third movement aside, I think the middle third movement is also poor. We don’t offer a short, five yard pass for the man in possession often enough. Give him a short pass, let him play a 5 yard one two and we are out of pressure and still moving forward.

The off ball movement is irritating. they rarely do one twos or quick give and goes. Its pass to a player and stop. then maybe he gives it back to you and then he just chills. then Bruno makes himself available and tries an adventurous pass. I notice this mostly when teams sit back. The movement is non existent

 

[NZT-One]

No doubt people moaned during Fergie as well. People moaned when we lost and people moaned when we played badly, but i can recall people making grand, sweeping statements about our coaching nor did i hear anything about vague nonsense like patterns of play. Maybe i was a bit unclear, but i am not suggesting we are a counter attacking team, i am just opposed to the ide that its somehow "worse" than possession oriented sides as i personally find the former more entertaining. Teams like Swansea and Brighton now, who play possession football on a small budget tend to get incredibly overrated by fans and especially pundits. Even if they manage 60% possession against a "big" side now and then and have a couple of very well worked team goals throughout the season, at the end of the day, they're not bringing home any trophies

Ok, I thought we would have established already that of course coaching, system, tactics are only a few factors, that determine your success. Other huge factors are plain luck and of course the quality of players you have at your disposal. This is where Brighton has its issues and - additionally to get some trophies in this league is even more difficult than in most others due to the biggest teams being stacked with worldclass players.
As I said in a different post: great "tactics" only get you so far. But the same goes for great players. The music really starts when you find a way to combine those two. And that is where I personally do not see enough efforts in our club. Of course I might be wrong and we are doing something about it. But then we might do it not very well because it seems to be almost invisible in its effects.

...There is a reason teams bother with low blocks, because they are incredibly hard to penetrate and teams who consistently manage to beat them are usually league champions or a close second. No doubt we struggle with low blocks, but so does most other teams....

You are right it is very difficult to play against a low block. BUT you can do a lot of things to make it as hard as possible for the defending team. Because you have 90 minutes(!). You don't even have to be great, you could also be decent to good and force some errors by the defense. You named crosses and playing through the middle. I agree on both. But what about set pieces? What about making it hard to stay in a tight defensive shape by shifting the ball around in a higher tempo and using the whole size of the pitch? We bought a player who excels in seeing space and making use of it in DVB. But we do not use him (instead we act as if he would be the answer to our midfield woes...) You named Mata who is freezed out. Put him and DVB next to each other and we have another tool to break down a low block. There are a few tools and believe me - I (and maybe more people here) would be even fine, losing against a minor team if it would be the result of going for the win. I know you have to smart as a manager, but you also have to take risks. And that's something that is missing from either the manager and from most of the players too often. Again, this is not just a form or a personal issue.


All in all - I think we are way closer standpoint-wise as we appear to be. I get it, we need more and better players to make it easier in matches. But it is certainly isn't the only way to go forward. Knowing United it certainly isn't the most promising. The way we play is not only depending on us, but also depending on our opposition. Who also has a manager that will try the same thing that we do: exploit weaknesses and try to emphasize own strength. As long as our weaknesses are so obvious, we will get hurt. Of course we can wait until magically the Grealishs, Sanchos, Haalands and Koundes appear to finally feel like having a level playing field. But other teams also are not perfect and they handle their strength and weaknesses proactively as well. We should do the same.

 

[NZT-One]

I don't agree with you there my friend. I do think you're right - the Glazers did want that. Or Woodward certainly did. He was desperate to be successful. So desperate. It was cringeworthy; hiring and firing managers, buying big name players.

But the plan Ole laid out for Woodward, after the burnings Woodward felt from having to sack LvG and then Mourinho and realising his Galactico plan wasn't going to work at United, tells me that the board and the owners and EVERYBODY AT THE CLUB is now onside with seeing Ole's plan through. We have returned to being the Manchester United we should always be. We are all planning for the long-term here.

Put it this way, if the club, and Woodward, weren't going for a 'long-term plan', they simply wouldn't have hired Solskjaer. It would have been whoever the next best manager in the world is...

And, honestly, look at all the signings under Ole, especially those who haven't even got into the first team yet. this is all long-term planning.

And long-term planning prevents us from implementing lets just say exploring more modern ways to play the game because... what? We can plan the next 10 years squad-wise but that means nothing if we don't start to improve players that are available and to make them play together as a team. If Ole isn't the one to implement that sort of thing, he can bring somebody in. But for some reason he doesn't do that. For the arguments sake - lets move away for a minute from the counterattacking-possession-PatternsOfPlay issue: what is your take on the matter that we suck at defending set pieces since at least 2 years but it doesn't improve. I heard there are coaches specifically for that. Would it be against the long term planning, to get somebody like that in for a while to address an apparent issue?

 

[NZT-One]

Firstly, no one is expecting a Fergie like Dynasty but if you look at our squad. AWB, Shaw, Henderson, McTominay, Bruno, Rashy, Martial, Diallo, Donny, Greenwood etc are all 25 ish and then add Pogba, Maguire and the like who are 27/28 and coming to their prime shows we are building a team that hopefully can dominate for years not just a one off.

Well they have had a fall off, so we are where we are. Its the same year in year out, "We wouldnt have got 3rd if it weren't for Leicester and Chelsea's poor form"

Diallo isn't even close to his prime, we do not even know about his potential playing against adults on a regular basis. To some extent that also applies to Greenwood. Adding Martial and Pogba to the list, one of which doesn't seem to fulfill his potential together with an at least questionable attitude, the other one openly talking about moving away. Donny currently looks like transfer flop, nobody should call him that because early days but why putting him in this list? It is so weird, before the derby everybody talked about City's squad being so much better and ours lacking so much, but now, a week later, it is possible that we witness a dynasty in the beginning.

I mean I get it, you like the squad, you are very hopeful and optimistic about the future. Fair enough, nothing wrong with that. But as an actual argument it feels very weak. And to came back to the topic - it doesn't prevent the coaching team to be more bold and more modern in its approach.