We aren't great, but let's not pretend....

King7Eric

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That we are as poor as some on here are suggesting. Do we have issues in this team? Absolutely. Are we lacking quality in certain areas? Yes.

But if we take a step back and analyze our last 2 games, we'll see it isn't all doom and gloom. Over the last 2 games we conceded 3 goals but I don't remember the opponents having loads of chances. Wolves had probably one good attack apart from the goal and Palace had again one shot by Zaha, apart from the goals. Both of Palace's goals resulted from individual errors by Lindelof and De Gea respectively (you could argue Pogba shouldn't be losing the ball but that's another individual error), rather than our system getting sliced apart defensively.

Offensively, we have struggled in the last 2 games, no two ways about it. Against Wolves, bar the goal and penalty, I don't remember any meaningful chance and against Palace too we should have created more. But having said that, if those 2 missed penalties go in, or if the ref gives a stonewall penalty for the tackle on Martial, we are looking at very different results. Again, I concede we should not be dependent on penalties to beat the likes of Palace, but even great sides need these slices of luck from time to time.

Now there are certain issues that can be addressed in the short term, but there are certain that cannot. For instance in the 1st half yesterday, we had James go down for an injury and stop the game, followed a few minutes later by Shaw doing the same. These stoppages both occurred around the 20 min mark, just as we were starting to build up some momentum and played right into Palace's hands. A team that is coming here to defend will welcome these little stoppages and its upto the players on the field to see through it. An experienced side will be aware of how these stoppages can lead to a lapse in concentration and this exactly what happened with their first goal. I'm willing to bet a SAF side doesn't concede that goal because the players would have asked the injured guy to get off the field to receive treatment so as not to stop the game just as you are trying to put the screw in. Its better to play with 10 men for a couple of minutes as it forces the players to up their concentration levels rather than stop and break their focus. But these little things come from experience and we lack that in our side and these little mistakes, such as allowing the opposing side to slow the game through their tactics will continue to frustrate us this season and its not something we'll get a short term solution.

Another problem that can't really be addressed is the lack of quality in that no. 10 role. For whatever reason we didn't buy a CAM and we will suffer in breaking defensive sides down if we don't get a early goal. To that end I get why Lingard plays, to try and harry the opponents into making a mistake, but its more of a hail mary rather than a long term strategy. If we play Pogba further afield, we lose creativity from deep, its an area there's really no short term solution to until we dip into the transfer market.

But having listed all these issues, its encouraging to see us trying to find a way around them. We are trying to make the pitch as wide as possible with James and Rashford and even though they are both inconsistent, they do create moments of quality from time to time that leads to chances. As long as we keep the back door shut (which we seem to be doing for the most part) we will eventually get our attacking patterns right and there were evidences of that happening in the 2nd half.

Its hard to feel positive following yesterday's result, but there's fine margins in a game and while being great means being able to ride a wave of bad luck without your results suffering, we all know we aren't a great side yet. But the form of Martial, James, Pogba and our defense does give me confidence we will be getting things right soon. Yes we struggled at times in the last 2 games, but still created enough to win and that gives me hope we aren't as poor a side we are being made out to be and we will turn this corner if we stay confident in the approach we have adopted.
 

Look-a-Hill

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Again, I concede we should not be dependent on penalties to beat the likes of Palace, but even great sides need these slices of luck from time to time.
This has been said a lot since yesterday but it's not luck to win a penalty in the fashion we should have against Palace. Every good attack we created yesterday ended up in fouls which were not punished adequately.
 
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Baneofthegame

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That we are as poor as some on here are suggesting. Do we have issues in this team? Absolutely. Are we lacking quality in certain areas? Yes.

But if we take a step back and analyze our last 2 games, we'll see it isn't all doom and gloom. Over the last 2 games we conceded 3 goals but I don't remember the opponents having loads of chances. Wolves had probably one good attack apart from the goal and Palace had again one shot by Zaha, apart from the goals. Both of Palace's goals resulted from individual errors by Lindelof and De Gea respectively (you could argue Pogba shouldn't be losing the ball but that's another individual error), rather than our system getting sliced apart defensively.

Offensively, we have struggled in the last 2 games, no two ways about it. Against Wolves, bar the goal and penalty, I don't remember any meaningful chance and against Palace too we should have created more. But having said that, if those 2 missed penalties go in, or if the ref gives a stonewall penalty for the tackle on Martial, we are looking at very different results. Again, I concede we should not be dependent on penalties to beat the likes of Palace, but even great sides need these slices of luck from time to time.

Now there are certain issues that can be addressed in the short term, but there are certain that cannot. For instance in the 1st half yesterday, we had James go down for an injury and stop the game, followed a few minutes later by Shaw doing the same. These stoppages both occurred around the 20 min mark, just as we were starting to build up some momentum and played right into Palace's hands. A team that is coming here to defend will welcome these little stoppages and its upto the players on the field to see through it. An experienced side will be aware of how these stoppages can lead to a lapse in concentration and this exactly what happened with their first goal. I'm willing to bet a SAF side doesn't concede that goal because the players would have asked the injured guy to get off the field to receive treatment so as not to stop the game just as you are trying to put the screw in. Its better to play with 10 men for a couple of minutes as it forces the players to up their concentration levels rather than stop and break their focus. But these little things come from experience and we lack that in our side and these little mistakes, such as allowing the opposing side to slow the game through their tactics will continue to frustrate us this season and its not something we'll get a short term solution.

Another problem that can't really be addressed is the lack of quality in that no. 10 role. For whatever reason we didn't buy a CAM and we will suffer in breaking defensive sides down if we don't get a early goal. To that end I get why Lingard plays, to try and harry the opponents into making a mistake, but its more of a hail mary rather than a long term strategy. If we play Pogba further afield, we lose creativity from deep, its an area there's really no short term solution to until we dip into the transfer market.

But having listed all these issues, its encouraging to see us trying to find a way around them. We are trying to make the pitch as wide as possible with James and Rashford and even though they are both inconsistent, they do create moments of quality from time to time that leads to chances. As long as we keep the back door shut (which we seem to be doing for the most part) we will eventually get our attacking patterns right and there were evidences of that happening in the 2nd half.

Its hard to feel positive following yesterday's result, but there's fine margins in a game and while being great means being able to ride a wave of bad luck without your results suffering, we all know we aren't a great side yet. But the form of Martial, James, Pogba and our defense does give me confidence we will be getting things right soon. Yes we struggled at times in the last 2 games, but still created enough to win and that gives me hope we aren't as poor a side we are being made out to be and we will turn this corner if we stay confident in the approach we have adopted.
In my opinion the reason its negative is:

We have looked pretty similar to last season, in that if we can’t counter teams, we look hopeless at creating chances.

We persist with Lingard in the 10, even though he hurts us a lot of the time.

We have few people who can actually beat someone 1vs1.

Our squad depth is basically non existent outside of, ironically, defence.

We for years still haven’t addressed the RW.

When you give away a what feels like 5 points in 2 games there will always be an overreaction to the state of the team.
 

NoLogo

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Honestly the loss against CP was unlucky. The team didn't play awful, and we were showing a lot of things that were solely missing last season, like putting up a fight for one.

The truth remains we left quite a few positions without any improvement, especially in midfield and on the right wing and it will show in terms of defensive stability and our ability to break defensive teams down effectively.

Despite the mixed start I'm still positive about the direction we are heading right now, we just need to get more stable in terms of results and maybe start practicing penalties.
 

Castia

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In my opinion the reason its negative is:

We have looked pretty similar to last season, in that if we can’t counter teams, we look hopeless at creating chances.

We persist with Lingard in the 10, even though he hurts us a lot of the time.

We have few people who can actually beat someone 1vs1.

Our squad depth is basically non existent outside of, ironically, defence.

We for years still haven’t addressed the RW.

When you give away a what feels like 5 points in 2 games there will always be an overreaction to the state of the team.
This is the main complaint of the forum yet we don't have anybody to replace him. Mata in at #10 or maybe Matic starting then pushing Pogba up? is it really that much of a better option because everytime I see Mata and Matic play it's like thy're moving in slow motion..

Ole's got rid of 90% of the players we wanted gone. Lukaku, Sanchez out. Jones, Smalling, Young, Matic dropped, he's doing all he can with what we have available.

Gomes seems talented and maybe he should get a chance but its yet another young player with no PL experience and is 5' 2 in height you can see why he's not getting thrown straight in. Gomes will get a chance, if he does well he will get games we just have to be patient.
 

MikeUpNorth

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There’s no way near enough goals in this team to be competitive.

We spent a huge amount of money to marginally improve our defence, and did nothing to address the glaring dearth of quality at the top of the pitch.
 

King7Eric

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In my opinion the reason its negative is:

We have looked pretty similar to last season, in that if we can’t counter teams, we look hopeless at creating chances.

We persist with Lingard in the 10, even though he hurts us a lot of the time.

We have few people who can actually beat someone 1vs1.

Our squad depth is basically non existent outside of, ironically, defence.

We for years still haven’t addressed the RW.

When you give away a what feels like 5 points in 2 games there will always be an overreaction to the state of the team.
I disagree with the bolded part but apart from that I agree with what you say. There are reasons to be negative but we aren't as bad as we are being made out. We need at least 10 games before making judgement and there have been positives that we will get things right.
 

red woppit

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Our first three games have shown us a few things, yes we do not have quality all over the pitch, we have certainly tightened up in defence (apart from the Ayew goal, both Lindelof and Maguire culpable, and possibly Wan Bissaka could have been closer, or covering), McTominay looks a little out of place on the left of a midfield two, Lingard runs a lot, but has no end product, and it looks like the youngsters will be playing a lot of the cup matches. We certainly have creativity in players like Gomes, Greenwood, Garner and Chong, and I think the time is now right to start bringing Gomes into the mix. This season was always going to be one of ups and downs, we will play worse than yesterday and win, and also better than yesterday and lose. I think certain players think we cannot lose to a team like Palace, but you still have to put in the hard yards for the team. Perhaps McGinn was not such an outlandish thought.
 

devilish

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Some people keep forgetting that we were so great in preseason. They should give us a trophy for that. The preseason cup.
 

The Cat

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If you compare how we look to the Liverpool Arsenal match yesterday we are really not anywhere near I'm afraid.

The defence was improved but we needed to add to the midfield and attack as well to do anything this season.

If I had to bet on it I think Arsenal will finish above us. We are looking at 5th.

Still I will look forward to tracking the progress of the youngsters.
 

SteveW

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With any luck we'd have 9 points. People losing the rag over those games are just showing their agenda. Anyone else would actually wait until we deserve a bad result instead of jumping on the first bit of bad luck.
 

fastwalker

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The issue here is simple, don't look at the last three games under Ole look at the entirety of his tenure, which now encompasses nearly two-thirds of a season: 13 wins 5 draws and 6 defeats. People are quick to dismiss last season because we finished it so poorly, but they quickly forget that it is based on his performance in the first 12 games in charge that Ole was offered the job in the first place. Therefore if we dismiss Ole's performance last season on what basis did we appoint him in the first place?

I do not want to see Ole sacked. Let me just make that clear. But I do expect him to be held accountable for his record whether that be good, bad or indifferent. I did not lower the bar for Moyes, Van Gaal or Mourinho and I am not lowering it for Ole either. Ten wins in his first 12 games is excellent, five defeats in his last 12 is not.
 

King7Eric

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The issue here is simple, don't look at the last three games under Ole look at the entirety of his tenure, which now encompasses nearly two-thirds of a season: 13 wins 5 draws and 6 defeats. People are quick to dismiss last season because we finished it so poorly, but they quickly forget that it is based on his performance in the first 12 games in charge that Ole was offered the job in the first place. Therefore if we dismiss Ole's performance last season on what basis did we appoint him in the first place?

I do not want to see Ole sacked. Let me just make that clear. But I do expect him to be held accountable for his record whether that be good, bad or indifferent. I did not lower the bar for Moyes, Van Gaal or Mourinho and I am not lowering it for Ole either. Ten wins in his first 12 games is excellent, five defeats in his last 12 is not.
Well put. That's why I say let's wait till 10 matches at least before jumping on one bandwagon or another. If we are struggling in terms of results he has to answer for it and rightfully so, but to throw toys out of the pram after 2 bad results (not necessarily performances) is just silly.
 

AlwaysRed66

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Some people keep forgetting that we were so great in preseason. They should give us a trophy for that. The preseason cup.
This always makes me laugh. Last pre season we had people on these boards informing us how great Perriera, Fred & Sanchez would be as how marvellous they were in pre-season. We know how that ended. This season, it was all our world class youngsters who will change our season when give the opportunity to play. Waiting for this, but don't hold your breathe. Youngsters always blow hot & cold, & fans on here always overrate them. Perhaps I will be proven wrong. Hope so.

I couldn't care if Man Utd & England never win a friendly match ever again, as they are only there to try systems out & get players fit. Unfortunately, people take them so seriously.
 

Bestietom

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This is the main complaint of the forum yet we don't have anybody to replace him. Mata in at #10 or maybe Matic starting then pushing Pogba up? is it really that much of a better option because everytime I see Mata and Matic play it's like thy're moving in slow motion..

Ole's got rid of 90% of the players we wanted gone. Lukaku, Sanchez out. Jones, Smalling, Young, Matic dropped, he's doing all he can with what we have available.

Gomes seems talented and maybe he should get a chance but its yet another young player with no PL experience and is 5' 2 in height you can see why he's not getting thrown straight in. Gomes will get a chance, if he does well he will get games we just have to be patient.
Gomes 5ft 2ins now. He's getting smaller with every poster. I believe his height is 5ft 4ins or 5ft 5ins. but it doesn't matter as he can look after himself and is strong.
 

Zaboot

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No not great but it's not going to be a quick fix. Maguire and wan bissaka is only just the beginning. It could be up to three summer transfer windows of buying smartly before Man United are at the right level. Faith needs to be put in the manager during that time, the question is is ole the right man to put faith in.
 

Baneofthegame

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This is the main complaint of the forum yet we don't have anybody to replace him. Mata in at #10 or maybe Matic starting then pushing Pogba up? is it really that much of a better option because everytime I see Mata and Matic play it's like thy're moving in slow motion..

Ole's got rid of 90% of the players we wanted gone. Lukaku, Sanchez out. Jones, Smalling, Young, Matic dropped, he's doing all he can with what we have available.

Gomes seems talented and maybe he should get a chance but its yet another young player with no PL experience and is 5' 2 in height you can see why he's not getting thrown straight in. Gomes will get a chance, if he does well he will get games we just have to be patient.
With Lingard we should be playing Pogba as the 10 and put in Matic/Fred alongside McT in my opinion.

He might have alienated them from the starting 11 for the most part, but thy aren’t replaced with any sort of quality, relying solely on the youngsters to be consistent enough to make the CL spots is a big risk.

Gomes for whatever reason hasn’t even featured so far, even though his height didn’t seem to be a problem in pre season (I know, pre season.)

I disagree with the bolded part but apart from that I agree with what you say. There are reasons to be negative but we aren't as bad as we are being made out. We need at least 10 games before making judgement and there have been positives that we will get things right.
There will always be an overreaction but it is worryingly similar to last year in that we look clueless when dominating the ball at the times and we would probably prefer to have less of it with the make up of the team.
 

Castia

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Gomes 5ft 2ins now. He's getting smaller with every poster. I believe his height is 5ft 4ins or 5ft 5ins. but it doesn't matter as he can look after himself and is strong.

Alright he's 5'4 not 5'2....cheers.
 

TrueRed79

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With any luck we'd have 9 points. People losing the rag over those games are just showing their agenda. Anyone else would actually wait until we deserve a bad result instead of jumping on the first bit of bad luck.
We have 3 wins in the last 15 games. Let's get real here for a second. It's not bad luck ok. We lost to CP at home in the second home game of the season. That's abysmal.
 

Castia

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With Lingard we should be playing Pogba as the 10 and put in Matic/Fred alongside McT in my opinion.

He might have alienated them from the starting 11 for the most part, but thy aren’t replaced with any sort of quality, relying solely on the youngsters to be consistent enough to make the CL spots is a big risk.

Gomes for whatever reason hasn’t even featured so far, even though his height didn’t seem to be a problem in pre season (I know, pre season.)



There will always be an overreaction but it is worryingly similar to last year in that we look clueless when dominating the ball at the times and we would probably prefer to have less of it with the make up of the team.
Are those 2 players a much better option than Lingard? the thought of a Matic/McTominay midfield pairing is dull at best.

Matic plays like he's 40 years old whilst Fred hasn't impressed thus far and tbh I have no clue where he even is. Came back to pre season late because he got married? well he had 3 months to organise that in his summer downtime and now he's nowhere near match fit.

We'll drop points and Matic would be the scapegoat instead of Lingard.
 

The Siege

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In the Wolves game, a fluke substitution by our opponents brought a slightly different wing back into the fray and it gave them control of the game.

If the squad and the tactics are that goddamn fragile, we're exactly as bad as the worst predictions here.
 

rooney1905

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I think the fear is that this season we had clear signs to replace players who had gone. One we had no control over but the other we didn’t have to sell. We won’t be top 4 because our squad is too light. There is a starting 8 and then holes in RW, LB, and CM (I’m being generous up top for now). No UCL next season is likely given the squad available and we will see Pogba and De Gea leave. It is an epic failure to be weaker at the start of this season than we were at the start of last season. And now we are losing our better players due to years of failure.

Blame lies everywhere. Mostly the board and I think what bugs me the most is that even if the glazers wanted to fake as if they care they would replace Woodward. They have told us through their actions that we are a financing vehicle for them and that is all. All this talk about funds being available every summer and we can do business in January is clearly not about transfers and rather liquidating assets at the club.
 

ivaldo

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Agreed.

We were undeniably the better team in all 3 games so far. There's a structure and a clearly defined way of playing. The players we brought in were of the right quality, we just didn't bring enough of them in. Add another two or three players in the next few windows in key positions, bringing in a bit of creativity in the process, and we've got ourselves a very good team.
 

VeevaVee

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Same story as it's been for a few years though. Looking 'better' at times but not scoring enough. Relying on pens to win or smash and grabs. Sure, they're still goals but we aren't convincing and we don't do well until we are.

This isn't down to bad luck or bad ref decisions. It's down to being a bit shit.
 

Sky1981

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3 in 15 is pretty bad.

Do we have injuries on 5 or more players coming back?
Does ole changes his formation?
Does we purchase neymar or messi?

Bottom line is there's not much change this season and last season. What makes you think the result is going to change much?

Same manager, a better defence granted, but i dont expect things to suddenly clicks. We did nothing but expect everything.
 

Sky1981

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No not great but it's not going to be a quick fix. Maguire and wan bissaka is only just the beginning. It could be up to three summer transfer windows of buying smartly before Man United are at the right level. Faith needs to be put in the manager during that time, the question is is ole the right man to put faith in.
Nah... there's no quick fix to winning the league. But if spending 150m on better defence can't keep crystal palace from scoring 2 then nope.

Not everything is a 3 years journey. New managers are expected to manage since day 1. This is not football manager
 

Harry190

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I thought we were decent against Crystal Palace yesterday. I think there's a team in there with a few missing pieces. Christmas came early for Crystal Palace. Even Tim Sherwood thought it was a smash and grab and was bemused and tim Sherwood generally dislikes United.
 

lysglimt

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There’s no way near enough goals in this team to be competitive.

We spent a huge amount of money to marginally improve our defence, and did nothing to address the glaring dearth of quality at the top of the pitch.
We are unlucky not to have 9 Points from 3 matches. Are we good enough offensively ? No - but we knew that. This season is about progress - we are not Liverpool or City...what I have seen from the first 3 matches is progress, but we have been unlucky or been punished ruthlessly for our mistakes.

It will take 2-3 transfer Windows to get the players we want - we are realistically lacking 2-3 quality players - and 1-2 years from Our youngsters (Gomes, Chong, Garner and Greenwood)

I am extremely frustrated With the defeat - but we are going in the right direction…..it will just take time.
 

King7Eric

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Nah... there's no quick fix to winning the league. But if spending 150m on better defence can't keep crystal palace from scoring 2 then nope.

Not everything is a 3 years journey. New managers are expected to manage since day 1. This is not football manager
Palace scored 2 due to 2 individual errors. There's no way Lindelof should be losing that header, nor is it excusable for De Gea to let the ball just go through him. We should question our defense if we were sliced apart and they created chances upon chances but it hasn't happened once so far this season. It was a smash and grab in every sense of the word.

Of course, it should not detract from the fact that we have our shortcomings, but our defensive organization ( so far) hasn't been one of them.
 

lysglimt

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We have 3 wins in the last 15 games. Let's get real here for a second. It's not bad luck ok. We lost to CP at home in the second home game of the season. That's abysmal.
It's not bad Luck that we have 3 wins in 15. But it was bad Luck that we didn't beat Palace. I have yet to hear anyone saying Cahill shouldnt have been sent off. There were too many decisions going against us not to call it bad Luck.
 

lysglimt

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Palace scored 2 due to 2 individual errors. There's no way Lindelof should be losing that header, nor is it excusable for De Gea to let the ball just go through him. We should question our defense if we were sliced apart and they created chances upon chances but it hasn't happened once so far this season. It was a smash and grab in every sense of the word.

Of course, it should not detract from the fact that we have our shortcomings, but our defensive organization ( so far) hasn't been one of them.
Maguire was in a wrong position - probably to cover for Shaw. Why Shaw was back on the Field however is a good question. If we had taken him off and put McTominay down as left back until Young could enter the pitch..the goal wouldn't have happened. We messed up...but we simply need to learn
 

Beachryan

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There's no point railing against Ole now. I think he's done a reasonable job of moving the squad in the right direction and getting us back towards being United, but it'll take time. I also think there's very little to date to illustrate his ability as a tactician or coach. Other than fitness, our press is disorganized, our attack can't unlock defenses and our defense continues to make individual errors. I'm happy enough to continue with him til the summer because it's better than yet another change, but if a class manager is available we should get them.

Agree in general with the OP. We've played well in all the matches so far, and there's been some luck going against us. That said, it's up the players to take ownership - the Wolves match in particular we had 20 minutes to do something, and didn't. Palace had a 12th man and we win the match 99/100 based on chances.

It's hard for me as a United fan because of how lucky we've been, but we're going to have to get used to focussing on the performance rather than the results for a little while. It's happened to all the managers of big clubs that have come in and tried something different. I think Ole is building a solid foundation, and with a few more signings that fit in with that plan, we can finally start moving in the right direction.

Oh and Jessie Lingard has been diabolical this season. Has to be dropped, asap, just as a sign to the squad that you're rewarded and punished based on performance. Could consider doing it to De Gea to be honest...
 

Alemar

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There were too many decisions going against us not to call it bad Luck.
Bad luck? It is difficult to believe all these ref mistakes were unintentional - much more likely it’s a bias or even corruption.
 

Green_Red

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I know this is a bit of an excuse and Palace had to contend with the same conditions, and it doesnt explain Wolves, but yesterday it was 27/28° up from like 17s and 19s during the week. That kind of change in temperature has a negative impact on performance. Its another small margin as the op says. I wouldnt have liked to be running around out there yesterday.
 

buckooo1978

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we look the same 6th place team we did last year. That's the issue. We've made minor progress and I'd give the defence the benefit of the doubt after bad mistakes yesterday.

We needed 2 good attacking players in at least.
 

AlwaysRed66

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1,897
Bad luck? It is difficult to believe all these ref mistakes were unintentional - much more likely it’s a bias or even corruption.
Oh Dear. Another deluded fan. Go on any fan board & you will see the same sorts of posts. The ref is corrupt & has in it for us, & now VAR to add to the excuses. Grow up.
 

Sterling Archer

New Member
Joined
Jun 30, 2016
Messages
4,289
@King7Eric what does any of that matter? It's not one off or two off games. We've become consistent in not just not beating clubs at the bottom of the table but losing to them. We have won 3 of the last 16.

That is all feckin doom and gloom because all the same patterns and mistakes are there. Get rid of Lingard. Stop playing Paul so deep. Get a feckin dof. Fire that despicable ceo. Oust the owners.