We aren't great, but let's not pretend....

King7Eric

Correctly predicted Italy to win Euro 2020
Joined
Sep 19, 2016
Messages
3,121
Location
Cardiff
@King7Eric what does any of that matter? It's not one off or two off games. We've become consistent in not just not beating clubs at the bottom of the table but losing to them. We have won 3 of the last 16.

That is all feckin doom and gloom because all the same patterns and mistakes are there. Get rid of Lingard. Stop playing Paul so deep. Get a feckin dof. Fire that despicable ceo. Oust the owners.
You seem to have gone to the dark side mate.

We all know that "despicable CEO" isn't getting fired or the owners ousted any time soon. We need to make the best of what we have and that's what Ole is trying to do.

I know Manchester United should never "have to make the best of what we have" but the upper management of this club has shattered the concept of Manchester United as many of us knew it. We have to give the manager time, that's the best we can realistically do here.
 

UnofficialDevil

Anti Scottish and Preoccupied with Donkeys.
Joined
Aug 5, 2006
Messages
19,026
Location
I'm not anti Scottish, I just wanted Moyes out.
Third game into the season with a new manager and a new transfer window and anyone with common sense can see we aren't going to make top 4/ we aren't going to be playing champions league next season either, and we are talking about Manchester United. It is that bad / we are that poor.
 

King7Eric

Correctly predicted Italy to win Euro 2020
Joined
Sep 19, 2016
Messages
3,121
Location
Cardiff
Maguire was in a wrong position - probably to cover for Shaw. Why Shaw was back on the Field however is a good question. If we had taken him off and put McTominay down as left back until Young could enter the pitch..the goal wouldn't have happened. We messed up...but we simply need to learn
As I mentioned in the OP those breaks in play with the James and Shaw injury didn't help us and our players need to learn when to stop the game and when to simply get off the field to receive treatment if they feel a minor injury. Agree with you regarding the fact that we should have played with 10 in that scenario but it's something the experienced heads on the pitch have to regulate and sadly we don't have many.
 

Feed Me

I'm hungry
Joined
Apr 8, 2004
Messages
29,319
Location
Midlands, UK
With any luck we'd have 9 points. People losing the rag over those games are just showing their agenda. Anyone else would actually wait until we deserve a bad result instead of jumping on the first bit of bad luck.
This is an overly rose tinted view of the world

We were bloody awful yesterday and can have no real complaints over the loss
 

crossy1686

career ending
Joined
Jun 5, 2010
Messages
31,727
Location
Manchester/Stockholm
This is an overly rose tinted view of the world

We were bloody awful yesterday and can have no real complaints over the loss
:confused:

Rashford missed a penalty, we should have had at least one more, Lindelof missed a header, Maguire was out of position, Pogba made an error and De Gea is shit.

If the penalty goes in none of that other stuff happens, we fecked ourselves yesterday and didn't deserve to lose in the slightest.
 

Sterling Archer

New Member
Joined
Jun 30, 2016
Messages
4,289
You seem to have gone to the dark side mate.

We all know that "despicable CEO" isn't getting fired or the owners ousted any time soon. We need to make the best of what we have and that's what Ole is trying to do.

I know Manchester United should never "have to make the best of what we have" but the upper management of this club has shattered the concept of Manchester United as many of us knew it. We have to give the manager time, that's the best we can realistically do here.
I have. Faint whisper of hope still somewhere in me. But I've been heartbroken by false Dawns too often.

Here's the thing, I would be completely fine if we just started playing the kids. Specifically, Gomes. But we aren't. It's worse. We aren't even playing Mata. It's Lingard in there! And Paul is sitting deep at home to a team sitting back! We're starting a winger that relies on space!

Ignoring the ownership , I want to see better from the coaching staff. We better see Fred and Garner playing serious games. I just don't care how green they are anymore.
 

Feed Me

I'm hungry
Joined
Apr 8, 2004
Messages
29,319
Location
Midlands, UK
:confused:

Rashford missed a penalty, we should have had at least one more, Lindelof missed a header, Maguire was out of position, Pogba made an error and De Gea is shit.

If the penalty goes in none of that other stuff happens, we fecked ourselves yesterday and didn't deserve to lose in the slightest.
We made a series of individual errors yesterday and got punished. We won possession and shots off target but that means bugger all when it comes to getting a result
 

MuranoLover

New Member
Joined
Oct 4, 2009
Messages
1,207
Actually, we are really poor. Besides some hunger in the new guys, most of the players are totally demotivated.
 

JustAGuest

Full Member
Joined
Jun 19, 2013
Messages
742
Third game into the season with a new manager and a new transfer window and anyone with common sense can see we aren't going to make top 4/ we aren't going to be playing champions league next season either, and we are talking about Manchester United. It is that bad / we are that poor.
That's not common sense, it's your personal guesswork. Check the bookmakers and you will find they still estimate us to have a 30-40% chance of making top 4, which is higher than Chelsea, and only slightly worse than Arsenal.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Rood

crossy1686

career ending
Joined
Jun 5, 2010
Messages
31,727
Location
Manchester/Stockholm
We made a series of individual errors yesterday and got punished. We won possession and shots off target but that means bugger all when it comes to getting a result
Exactly, it's fine margins at this level and on a different day we win that game. We don't look like we've downed tools like previously and I still believed we'd get something out of the game yesterday until De Gea got involved.

We're an exciting team and fun to watch again but we absolutely have to start being more incisive in the final third, which is an area of the pitch where we lack leadership.
 

crossy1686

career ending
Joined
Jun 5, 2010
Messages
31,727
Location
Manchester/Stockholm
Third game into the season with a new manager and a new transfer window and anyone with common sense can see we aren't going to make top 4/ we aren't going to be playing champions league next season either, and we are talking about Manchester United. It is that bad / we are that poor.
Loads of football to be played yet and Chelsea and Arsenal are worse teams than we are.
 

Schmeichel's Cartwheel

Correctly predicted Italy to win Euro 2020
Joined
Dec 21, 2014
Messages
11,420
Location
Manchester
We're not a top team anymore, and it sucks because the board have allowed it to happen. This would never happen to Madrid or Bayern or Barcelona. Why did our board allow it to happen to us? We are closer in quality to Crystal Palace than we are City, some of you won't want to admit it, but it's the cold hard to swallow truth.

Loads of football to be played yet and Chelsea and Arsenal are worse teams than we are.
Arsenal are better than us.

Bad luck? It is difficult to believe all these ref mistakes were unintentional - much more likely it’s a bias or even corruption.
Mate, go away. We've had pens in every game so far.
 

Feed Me

I'm hungry
Joined
Apr 8, 2004
Messages
29,319
Location
Midlands, UK
Exactly, it's fine margins at this level and on a different day we win that game. We don't look like we've downed tools like previously and I still believed we'd get something out of the game yesterday until De Gea got involved.

We're an exciting team and fun to watch again but we absolutely have to start being more incisive in the final third, which is an area of the pitch where we lack leadership.
On the point of downing tools, let’s see about that. This team lacks fortitude and will soon start agitating if results are consistently poor. We have seen it time and again over the years.
 

amolbhatia50k

Sneaky bum time - Vaccination status: dozed off
Joined
Nov 8, 2002
Messages
95,792
Location
india
That we are as poor as some on here are suggesting. Do we have issues in this team? Absolutely. Are we lacking quality in certain areas? Yes.

But if we take a step back and analyze our last 2 games, we'll see it isn't all doom and gloom. Over the last 2 games we conceded 3 goals but I don't remember the opponents having loads of chances. Wolves had probably one good attack apart from the goal and Palace had again one shot by Zaha, apart from the goals. Both of Palace's goals resulted from individual errors by Lindelof and De Gea respectively (you could argue Pogba shouldn't be losing the ball but that's another individual error), rather than our system getting sliced apart defensively.

Offensively, we have struggled in the last 2 games, no two ways about it. Against Wolves, bar the goal and penalty, I don't remember any meaningful chance and against Palace too we should have created more. But having said that, if those 2 missed penalties go in, or if the ref gives a stonewall penalty for the tackle on Martial, we are looking at very different results. Again, I concede we should not be dependent on penalties to beat the likes of Palace, but even great sides need these slices of luck from time to time.

Now there are certain issues that can be addressed in the short term, but there are certain that cannot. For instance in the 1st half yesterday, we had James go down for an injury and stop the game, followed a few minutes later by Shaw doing the same. These stoppages both occurred around the 20 min mark, just as we were starting to build up some momentum and played right into Palace's hands. A team that is coming here to defend will welcome these little stoppages and its upto the players on the field to see through it. An experienced side will be aware of how these stoppages can lead to a lapse in concentration and this exactly what happened with their first goal. I'm willing to bet a SAF side doesn't concede that goal because the players would have asked the injured guy to get off the field to receive treatment so as not to stop the game just as you are trying to put the screw in. Its better to play with 10 men for a couple of minutes as it forces the players to up their concentration levels rather than stop and break their focus. But these little things come from experience and we lack that in our side and these little mistakes, such as allowing the opposing side to slow the game through their tactics will continue to frustrate us this season and its not something we'll get a short term solution.

Another problem that can't really be addressed is the lack of quality in that no. 10 role. For whatever reason we didn't buy a CAM and we will suffer in breaking defensive sides down if we don't get a early goal. To that end I get why Lingard plays, to try and harry the opponents into making a mistake, but its more of a hail mary rather than a long term strategy. If we play Pogba further afield, we lose creativity from deep, its an area there's really no short term solution to until we dip into the transfer market.

But having listed all these issues, its encouraging to see us trying to find a way around them. We are trying to make the pitch as wide as possible with James and Rashford and even though they are both inconsistent, they do create moments of quality from time to time that leads to chances. As long as we keep the back door shut (which we seem to be doing for the most part) we will eventually get our attacking patterns right and there were evidences of that happening in the 2nd half.

Its hard to feel positive following yesterday's result, but there's fine margins in a game and while being great means being able to ride a wave of bad luck without your results suffering, we all know we aren't a great side yet. But the form of Martial, James, Pogba and our defense does give me confidence we will be getting things right soon. Yes we struggled at times in the last 2 games, but still created enough to win and that gives me hope we aren't as poor a side we are being made out to be and we will turn this corner if we stay confident in the approach we have adopted.
Offensively we haven't struggled for 2 games. We've struggled for 6 years. To be honest I'm less worried about the team and more worried about the management/coaching.
 

Zaboot

New Member
Newbie
Joined
May 5, 2019
Messages
56
Nah... there's no quick fix to winning the league. But if spending 150m on better defence can't keep crystal palace from scoring 2 then nope.

Not everything is a 3 years journey. New managers are expected to manage since day 1. This is not football manager
Football manager is instant success so what im saying is definitely not football manager.

The amount of players in the first eleven that are not up to standard it probably will be a three year journey of buying smartly. It's not going to be a one year fix unless 500 million is spent right in the transfer window.

Not even guardiola or klopp would have united challenging for the league from day 1 or day 200.
 

crossy1686

career ending
Joined
Jun 5, 2010
Messages
31,727
Location
Manchester/Stockholm
On the point of downing tools, let’s see about that. This team lacks fortitude and will soon start agitating if results are consistently poor. We have seen it time and again over the years.
I'm concerned that will happen too but there's still an issue of who do we appoint if we sack Solskjaer? No established manager will want to be associated with us so we'll have to go for someone up and coming and looking to make a name for themselves. In other words, a massive gamble.

Solskjaer's the only manager we've had since SAF who seems to have a coherent plan for the club moving forward from transfers up.
 

King7Eric

Correctly predicted Italy to win Euro 2020
Joined
Sep 19, 2016
Messages
3,121
Location
Cardiff
Offensively we haven't struggled for 2 games. We've struggled for 6 years. To be honest I'm less worried about the team and more worried about the management/coaching.
We've struggled for 6 years because we keep getting different styles of managers who keep implementing different systems. If we keep changing management so often, these struggles will continue.
 

Stacks

Full Member
Joined
Jul 10, 2015
Messages
10,905
Location
Between a rock and Gibraltar
Agreed.

We were undeniably the better team in all 3 games so far. There's a structure and a clearly defined way of playing. The players we brought in were of the right quality, we just didn't bring enough of them in. Add another two or three players in the next few windows in key positions, bringing in a bit of creativity in the process, and we've got ourselves a very good team.
Reminds me of Van Gaal
 

King7Eric

Correctly predicted Italy to win Euro 2020
Joined
Sep 19, 2016
Messages
3,121
Location
Cardiff
Actually, we are really poor. Besides some hunger in the new guys, most of the players are totally demotivated.
Who looks demotivated to you? Martial seems refreshed, Rashford, McTominay, Lingard look the same as ever. Pogba seems bothered too on the pitch. Perhaps you could make a case for DDG because whenever we see him he's shaking his head after having let in a goal he should be saving.
 

Foxbatt

New Member
Joined
Oct 21, 2013
Messages
14,297
According to the statistics we had three shots on target against Wolves and Palace. That is not good reading.
 

Amir

Full Member
Joined
Aug 6, 2000
Messages
24,937
Location
Rehovot, Israel
With any luck we'd have 9 points. People losing the rag over those games are just showing their agenda. Anyone else would actually wait until we deserve a bad result instead of jumping on the first bit of bad luck.
Without luck who knows how the game against Chelsea would have ended.
 

JohnnyLaw

Full Member
Joined
Jun 1, 2013
Messages
2,060
Location
Sweden
We're not a top team anymore, and it sucks because the board have allowed it to happen. This would never happen to Madrid or Bayern or Barcelona. Why did our board allow it to happen to us? We are closer in quality to Crystal Palace than we are City, some of you won't want to admit it, but it's the cold hard to swallow truth.
Don’t disagree that our board is the root of our malaise but that’s a disingenuous comparison. None of the clubs you mention, Bayern and Madrid, even Barca to an extent have been well managed in recent years. It’s just that there’s not enough competition in Bundesliga or La liga to punish them. Even last year when both of Bayern and Real were well below standard they were quite easily able remain securely within CL places and even win in Bayerns case..
The board didn’t allow this to happen to us, they've just been completely incompetent in handling the situation.
 

UnofficialDevil

Anti Scottish and Preoccupied with Donkeys.
Joined
Aug 5, 2006
Messages
19,026
Location
I'm not anti Scottish, I just wanted Moyes out.

el3mel

Full Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2016
Messages
43,735
Location
Egypt
Nope. We are terrible.

The team had loads of problems that will get more exposed once the schedule becomes more condensed and injuries start rolling. Currently we are just playing 1 game a week and still lost 5 points of the first 9.

This is gonna be a pretty long season.
 

Bobcat

Full Member
Joined
Feb 2, 2014
Messages
6,389
Location
Behind the curtains, leering at the neighbors
With any luck we'd have 9 points. People losing the rag over those games are just showing their agenda. Anyone else would actually wait until we deserve a bad result instead of jumping on the first bit of bad luck.
This. Most fans say they want a long term plan and as long as we progress the results dont matter so much, but as it turns out, these same fans lose their shit and take out the torches and pitchforks after two games with some shite luck, shite refs and terrible individual errors. Our problems was never going to be solved overnight and the truth is that Ole inherited a really mediocre squad that needed upgrading in pretty much every area

AWB and Maguire are great additions to our defence and James looks real promising. People moaning about us not strengthening more needs to realize you cant just throw money at the problem. Well you can, but it has not exactly worked out in the past. I see Poch brought up all the time, but there are two issues with that: 1. Would he even come? (I highly doubt that) and 2. Hes not a magician and i doubt he would do much better with this lot
 

Yorkeontop

meonbottom
Joined
Aug 10, 2010
Messages
6,802
Location
Inside Fred the Red
I'm more worried about the mental fragility of this club post SAF amd more specifically this bunch. Be interesting to see how they react throughout the season.
 

King7Eric

Correctly predicted Italy to win Euro 2020
Joined
Sep 19, 2016
Messages
3,121
Location
Cardiff
This. Most fans say they want a long term plan and as long as we progress the results dont matter so much, but as it turns out, these same fans lose their shit and take out the torches and pitchforks after two games with some shite luck, shite refs and terrible individual errors. Our problems was never going to be solved overnight and the truth is that Ole inherited a really mediocre squad that needed upgrading in pretty much every area

AWB and Maguire are great additions to our defence and James looks real promising. People moaning about us not strengthening more needs to realize you cant just throw money at the problem. Well you can, but it has not exactly worked out in the past. I see Poch brought up all the time, but there are two issues with that: 1. Would he even come? (I highly doubt that) and 2. Hes not a magician and i doubt he would do much better with this lot
People on here only like the romanticism of a long term plan and winning trophies by bringing a youngsters through and watching a team evolve together. In reality, though they don't have the patience to sit through the process which will include lots of heartbreak. People look at Klopp and sing his praises but do they remember his first season in charge, Pool finished 8th? And the year after they were still around 20 points behind the champions.

Half the people clamoring to play Gomes and Greenwood will declare they aren't good enough after they have a few bad performances, which they inevitably will. Looked at the McTominay thread yesterday and the poor kid is getting panned left, right and center, despite the fact when he was on the pitch Palace hardly had a meaningful attack other than the goal (which he was helpless to prevent) and he even earned a penalty. But it his fault he's not Carrick so he'll get panned whenever we lose.
 

Dec9003

Correctly predicted Portugal to win Euro 2016
Joined
Jul 31, 2015
Messages
9,034
If we sort out the silly defensive mistakes we'll be alright.
Maybe De Gea and Lindelof need dropping after their performances.
 

SteveW

Full Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2013
Messages
7,194
People on here only like the romanticism of a long term plan and winning trophies by bringing a youngsters through and watching a team evolve together. In reality, though they don't have the patience to sit through the process which will include lots of heartbreak. People look at Klopp and sing his praises but do they remember his first season in charge, Pool finished 8th? And the year after they were still around 20 points behind the champions.

Half the people clamoring to play Gomes and Greenwood will declare they aren't good enough after they have a few bad performances, which they inevitably will. Looked at the McTominay thread yesterday and the poor kid is getting panned left, right and center, despite the fact when he was on the pitch Palace hardly had a meaningful attack other than the goal (which he was helpless to prevent) and he even earned a penalty. But it his fault he's not Carrick so he'll get panned whenever we lose.
A large chunk of our supporters are exactly what people say they are. Glory hunters. I'm enjoying the season. Disappointed with the result yesterday but we are improving.
 

K13

Full Member
Joined
Apr 19, 2019
Messages
583
Location
UK
People on here only like the romanticism of a long term plan and winning trophies by bringing a youngsters through and watching a team evolve together. In reality, though they don't have the patience to sit through the process which will include lots of heartbreak. People look at Klopp and sing his praises but do they remember his first season in charge, Pool finished 8th? And the year after they were still around 20 points behind the champions.

Half the people clamoring to play Gomes and Greenwood will declare they aren't good enough after they have a few bad performances, which they inevitably will. Looked at the McTominay thread yesterday and the poor kid is getting panned left, right and center, despite the fact when he was on the pitch Palace hardly had a meaningful attack other than the goal (which he was helpless to prevent) and he even earned a penalty. But it his fault he's not Carrick so he'll get panned whenever we lose.
The plan is the best bit. I loved watching and supporting during a large chunk of the 26 year wait. If people just support because we use to win then it is going to be a very tedious and hard time for them over the next few years.

I really rated McTominay's wonderful pass into Martial - which should have been a penalty when Kelly hauled Martial to the ground just as he was about to take aim.
 

K13

Full Member
Joined
Apr 19, 2019
Messages
583
Location
UK
A large chunk of our supporters are exactly what people say they are. Glory hunters. I'm enjoying the season. Disappointed with the result yesterday but we are improving.
Oh yes, definitely improving and the results will follow. They always do.
 

pocco

loco
Joined
Mar 17, 2010
Messages
22,551
Location
Keep a clean shit tomorrow, United is my final bus
Agreed.

We were undeniably the better team in all 3 games so far. There's a structure and a clearly defined way of playing. The players we brought in were of the right quality, we just didn't bring enough of them in. Add another two or three players in the next few windows in key positions, bringing in a bit of creativity in the process, and we've got ourselves a very good team.
I ask this in a genuine way, but what do you believe is our clearly defined style of play? I feel like we play slow, probing football without any bite. Off the ball we look quite passive bar fleeting moments. No aggression.

What happened to this pressing football we were gearing up for? What happened to our fitness when we seemed to be second to every loose ball in the second half of both our last 2 games?

We're a weird team right now. We're not as bad as last year in that we do apply some pressure to opponents in attack for small periods of time. Yet we still feel completely blunt in attack.
 

Maticmaker

Full Member
Joined
Nov 8, 2018
Messages
4,722
We had enough chances to win yesterday but our accuracy in front of goal was woeful. Before Palace scored we had seven clear cut chances, but their keeper didn't have to make a save, there was only one shot on target in this period which was saved by the fullback, not the keeper. By contrast Palace had three shots on target in the whole match, two they scored with, that's it end of story!

Yes we could have scored from the penalty, probably should have had another pen, but our accuracy in front of goal was so poor we probably could have had another two pens and still not scored.

Lets hope we've got this out of the system yesterday. Nobody has bossed us so far this season, yes its true in each game we had periods where the opposition threatened, but it was only Chelsea who carried a continuous sustained threat throughout the game. Wolves were (and are) always dangerous on the break, but we limited them to long range shots (unfortunately one paid off for them). Palace couldn't believe their luck that their workman like approach and our woeful finishing gave them the game.
 

M Bison

Full Member
Joined
Oct 26, 2015
Messages
6,840
Location
In the Wilderness
Supports
York City
Yesterday was massively disappointing but I do think we’re on the right tracks and approaching things in the right way for the longer term.

We’ve got half a new defence so it’s always going to take time to settle. The new players brought in are familiar with the league and the right age to develop and build from which is the right approach. Would it be nice to have a replacement or some competition for Shaw? Of course but it’s unrealistic at this stage.

We know there’s some poor areas in the side and it’s been said before, they were never going to resolved in 1 transfer window. I think starting with the defence is the right focus initially. Shipping out the likes of Lukaku (and hopefully Alexis) puts greater reliance on the players who actually want to be here. Pogba doesn’t want to be here and will likely be off next summer (if not before) which is also the right direction.

We have some very promising youth players, it would be nice to have seen a bit more of them in the opening few games but again, it will take time to integrate. Greenwood has featured, albeit only marginally, in each game up to now, his time on the pitch will increase and become more regular, and Gomes won’t be far behind. Both of these are very positive.

Ultimately I expect we’ll have some highs and lows this season, we’ll see some good performances and some howlers, such inconsistency is down to the age and inexperience in the team. It will take time unfortunately but I remain positive about the direction.

In essence, I agree with the OP, it’s not as bad as it seems but there will be other disappointments this season.
 

cyberman

Full Member
Joined
May 26, 2010
Messages
37,331
A lot of conformation bias is on play. Posters will tell i Chelsea result flattered us but lays into this team based on a game that we fully deserved to not only win but comfortably so as well.
Martial is playing well in the number 9, we've had two pens won by oir midfielders getting ahead of the ball with overlapping fullbacks that's getting to the byline.
Keep playing like this and Ill be pleased.
 

jackal&hyde

Full Member
Joined
Mar 20, 2018
Messages
4,220
Top OP; level headed post.

We had poor results but the play was decent in parts and the problems were the ones we already knew were there come the end of the transfer window. We were outplayed by Wolves last season, not this season though, we deserved to win. Against Palace we had 71% possession and 21 shots; on any other day we would have won.

It's not good, but it's far from doom and gloom.
 

always_hoping

Full Member
Joined
Jun 7, 2013
Messages
7,808
Both Wolves and Palace played defensive against United thats why they didn't create much. For the few chances they did create United's defence and keeper looked less than convincing with dealing with it which is a bit concerning moving forward against better sides who will play on the front foot v United.

In the past if Wolves and Palace had gained results v United either their goalkeeper or some defender would be MOTM but that wasn't the case in those games and if anything the Wolves and Palace keepers had little to do..