You left out selling their best player in Hazard.
Frank had honestly done a great job this season and way better than everyone expected.
We're comfortably the third best team in the league
- Thread starter Moby
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Frank had honestly done a great job this season and way better than everyone expected.
Agree.
As I've said before, I prefer our squad, particularly our first 11 over theirs. So one could make a case for ours being the third best team on paper in the league. But given they've had a transfer ban, them being in the top 4 and the FA cup final a decent outcome, really. Also, considering the ban and bedding in of youth players. Therefore, as a football "team" (which is what matters), we can't claim to comfortably be the third best until.. we're comfortably the third best.
What I've always liked about Chelsea's Lampard is that out of the three young managers (Arteta, Ole, Lampard) at the big clubs, I think so far he's got the most obviously progressive style of play. No doubt we've added Bruno who has made a huge impact and our front 5 is far better than Chelsea's, but the imprint of Lampard on his team appears stronger to me. Again, it's early doors for all these managers. For eg, Lampard has to prove his teams can actually defend. And he's been made to look better as well by a rubbish top 4 race in terms of points totals. But on the ball, in terms of a tactical set up, Lampard's shown some good signs.
So we've a better front 5 and better defence than Chelsea but Frank still managed to coach them ahead of us.
Ole's only good when the starting 11 is all fit and healthy, he's rubbish at player management and changing things up when things go south.
You're not wrong.
Chelsea definitely have the better shape, structure of team, how they play together and identity of their manager. There is a clear plan and the players follow through. This is often at the expense of players not suited to his football eg. Kante and Perisic(?? people who follow Chelsea can testify further).
In contrast, United's had the far better individual prowess/talents, and definitely better starting 11 than theirs. We do lack the organised team structure and style of team play which Chelsea clearly had. I don't think Ole really implement his own identity (at least not yet) to his teams, it's too copy and paste to the teams Fergie built. I think Ole should implement his own version of the United way. Fergie sure did. United way is not really strictly one way.
I think in terms of tactical set-up, Ole and Lampard are on par. Just that this time, Lampard got the better of Ole. Previous games, Ole get the better of Lampard. Lampard got his revenge this time, I'll give him that for preparing far better than Ole and even play the mind games successfully.
IMO we are overcritical of our team and that's usually how fans are. I saw few posts on Leicester forum, Chelsea forum and even Spurs, they all were praising us, saying how good we look and how every player in the team knows their role, off the ball movement, no tippy tappy instead goes for forward passes. Obviously there will be few who thinks there is nothing wrong with their clubs.
This season has been a mess tbh, we played with Pereira, Lingard for half a season and we had nothing in attack for more than half a season, then all of a sudden things were starting to click and we played very good football.
We have scored only 1 goal less than Chelsea and they play Liverpool and Wolves next, we play Leicester and West Ham. Won't be surprised if we score more goal than them, would never have believed it in December when we were struggling to score goals and Chelsea looked like scoring at will.
For example, we struggled against Southampton but we should have scored few more goals in that game, Chelsea also struggled against Southampton at home and didn't look like scoring at all.
IMO we judge our team by our low times and others by their high times.
Saying all this, Chelsea look better team in possession, I don't think we will be possession team under Ole at all if we go by his interviews.
A team is beyond starting line up
Exactly. I have absolutely no idea why these types of threads exist.
The fact we have to win by 3 for it to alter slightly kind of proves my point!
A solid 2-0 win doesn't do anything for us
This thread bump is comical gold.
No one posted in this thread for a week, so good chance it was in 2nd or 3rd page in ManUtd forum thread list, most would have even forgot about this thread but after the first loss someone randomly bumps this thread and asks to close it as it's embarrassing
No one posted in this thread for a week, so good chance it was in 2nd or 3rd page in ManUtd forum thread list, most would have even forgot about this thread but after the first loss someone randomly bumps this thread and asks to close it as it's embarrassing
Stop this rubbish, as we are currently 5th. Beat West Ham first, and try not to lose to Leicester City, then we may be 3rd.
Agree, but Chelsea have always had a better squad depth than us all season, its not hard to see.
Our drop in quality when subbing/playing B-team is so big that Ole tends to try to avoid it, thats why he struggles with it.
Where has this “plucky Chelsea”, “Frank doing a great job under the circumstances” narrative come from? You won a title, what, three seasons ago? Most of the players you had then are still around now! Plus you’ve spent billions over the last twenty years!
Also, the commentators kept talking about a “young group” yesterday...the average age of your starting XI must have been late 20s!
The fact is, the squad of players you have is ridiculous. Two established internationals in almost every position. About 50 players out on loan! Top four should have been the absolute bare minimum for Frank this season, especially given the turmoil that Utd, Arsenal and Spurs have gone through.
Our manager gets torn to shreds by half this forum. We are odds on to get top four, got to an FA Cup Semi and a UEFA Cup Qtr (still going). Despite having to play Pereira, Lingard, Mata and teenagers on a regular basis. All this whilst having three of his best players out for long periods.
Tell me again how hard Frank has had it. Must be really tough choosing between Willian, CHO, Pulisic and Pedro on the flanks. Or Kovacic, Mount, Kante, RLC, Barkley and Jorginho in CM. Or Giroud, Batman or Abraham up top.
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Back down to earth on this one. Chelsea have always had a more balanced squad this season. It's vital we add some quality depth in the summer.
Very well put. Wish i could copy paste this to Chelsea subreddit right now.
We have the third best team no doubt but Chelsea's squad is better than ours.
Yesterday was more about tactics than players.
Yesterday was more about tactics than players.
I agree we should have played the normal system, but we have operated this way against Chelsea and looked the better side every time. I think yesterday our players were sloppy, not focused and not up for the fight. They were barely pressing and looked uninterested for a good 55 minutes. There's only so much we can put onto the formation there, especially when we've used it to beat that same side 3 times before kick off.
If it were a one off I might agree with you, but we've been broadly shite in the opening 45 minutes for 3 games now and its not a coincidence.
How are we comfortably 3rd best when with 2 games to go we are behind Chelsea and on par with Leicester? Does the table lie? Or are people over estimating us because of a purple patch.
I don't think there's much between United, Chelsea, Spurs. Depending on the transfer window these team could be in any order next year. Arsenal lack the squad for a 38 game season. We'll see if Leicester are as good next season.
I don't think there's much between United, Chelsea, Spurs. Depending on the transfer window these team could be in any order next year. Arsenal lack the squad for a 38 game season. We'll see if Leicester are as good next season.
A) Fabregas, Costa, Cahill, Courtois, Hazard, Matic, Terry and more all left after we won the league, this is not the same squad at all.
B) Almost every pundit and a lot of utd fans on here ranked Chelsea's squad as poor and below top 4 quality, now that we're in the top 4 the goal posts have been moved and 'we always had a good squad' and 'much better than what Oli has had to work with' despite Oli spending the best part of £200m.
C) You are not the only side who have had injuries to key players, i don't know why people keep using this as an excuse, we have missed a fully fit Kante all season pretty much, Pulisic has been in and out for extended periods, as with Abraham, Tomori and others.
D) Top 4 would be a very good achievement seeing as most stuck us in 5th or 6th pre season.
Change the formation OR the players. We did both. When well rested our first team is clearly better.
When we beat Chelsea with a back 3 they were in a conventional formation. They saw it coming this time and changed their own formation to match us.
That's presumptuous, as I said earlier we were slow off the start to Southampton and Palace and they had the same congestion of fixtures versus us. Burnout is a factor but it isn't the factor
You finished 3rd and won the Europa league last season. You lost one player and replaced him with a new £58m signing. You also brought some high quality players back from loan.
I had us 6th pre season. Pundits are always wrong, nearly all would have had Spurs 3rd and Leicester nowhere near top 4.
I think our strongest first 11 on paper is however we have a pretty poor squad. I don't think Chelsea's first 11 is great, however their squad options are pretty much at a similar level to their first team. A few injuries to their first team players wouldn't feck them like it does to us.
John Terry started 6 games that season, Fabregas 15. They where already being phased out. Courtois was sold and replaced with the world's most expensive goalkeeper. Maybe a few more have left than I initially thought but they have all been replaced and as another poster has pointed out, you finished 3rd last season and added a £50m player!
Who ranked Chelsea's squad as 'poor' and 'below top four quality'? I'm sure someone, somewhere did but that doesn't mean it was an opinion I held or an opinion widely held on this forum. I would expect most of the regular, sensible posters on this forum would have had Chelsea finishing 3rd this season, or at least 4th.
We are not using the injuries as an 'excuse'. We are recognising that it is our own fault our squad is so weak. However, that's my point. Utd's SQUAD is far weaker than Chelsea's and yet we go into the last game 1pt behind you.
Remember, all I am talking about here is the narrative. The narrative is that Chelsea have overachieved with a squad of mainly young players, and that's just an absolute load of nonsense!
In reality, you have a very good squad which has had billions spent on it over a sustained period. Many of whom are in their prime, with a few younger (but still experienced) lads in and around the first team. I would say Frank has done OK at best.
How can you compare key injuries to Rashford, Martial and Pogba this season to Abraham, Tomori and Pulisic? Those 3 players aren't even guaranteed starters for Chelsea, whereas United lost their best 3 players for large stretches of the season, all 3 are game changers on their day and have proven that over the last month or so.
The fact remains that when Ole has had a relatively fit squad to chose from, United have played better and way more consistent football than Chelsea this season, and have beaten you 3 times, twice at Stamford Bridge.
Some of those players you've mentioned in your first point were replaced by Conte too were they not? Fabregas, Cahill, Costa?
Pretty much every pundit have slammed United this season for being terrible, and Chelsea have miraculously had a 'good' season under Lampard, despite losing 12 games or something.
I think Lampard has done a good job, all things considered. I think what really grinds a lot of fans on here is the media fairytale that Lampard has done a good job, while Ole is out of his depth and United are in disarray again after 1 loss. Reality remains both could finish in the Top 4 and end the season with a trophy each.
Bruno has elevated United slightly above Chelsea I feel, as shown by our form since February, which has been far superior to Chelsea's. The major difference between United and Chelsea going into next season I think is goals. United have natural goalscorers in forward positions, jury will be out on Chelsea next season. Ole and Lampard will be an interesting rivalry in the coming seasons, a lot will depend on how Ziyech and Werner adapt to PL football, because if United get Sancho, then our front 3 is looking World Class.
This thread is like discussing how we are so much better than West Ham and then we go on to lose at the weekend.
I’d actually prefer us to actually secure 3rd place at the end of the season , and then discuss how we are third best in the league.
I’d actually prefer us to actually secure 3rd place at the end of the season , and then discuss how we are third best in the league.
I think it's probably to counteract the five 'Ole out' themed threads that pop-up after every defeat....I for one like a thread where I can post my (largely) positive opinions without being called a 'cultist' or 'deluded'
Just on that, we had an extra game on both of those because of FA Cup. Against West Ham we will have played 2 extra games during the same period.
In such a congested period, those two extra games make a huge difference. Maguire, Lindelof, Wan-Bissaka, Bruno, Rashford and Martial have played an incredible number of minutes because we lack the depth to replace them.
Take Chelsea our main rivals as an example. During the period since lockdown, only two of their players (Azpilicueta and Willian) have played 700 minutes of football while 6 of our lads have. Maguire has played 840 minutes of football. That's 9.3 games of professional football in one month since the 19th June - it's simply not sustainable.
The majority of the Chelsea first team have played between 60 and 70% of available minutes since we got back while the majority of our starting 11 have played between 80 and 100% of minutes. They have depth they trust to come in and share the load but it's become very apparent, we don't.
If Ole can't trust players like Dalot, Lingard, Mata and Pereira to come in and do a job when we're desperate for numbers, then they need to be moved on during the summer. At the moment they're serving no purpose except a drain on the wage bill.
Yeah agreed, this is actually what worries me the most about us under Ole. On paper, we should be the third best team in the league and yet we definitely are not - there's still a chance we won't make top four although since Leicester's implosion that luckily looks more likely now.
What I like about Lampard's Chelsea is they manage the game well, they were slowly suffocating us all half and then got the first goal. After that we were chasing them and they were't committing many men forward - the second goal was obviously lucky but we were never really in the game. We are the fifth best team in the league currently.
Comparing us based upon a game in which we had played 2 days earlier and they had 4 days of recovery is not noteworthy.
If we signed Bruno back in August we’d undeniably have top 3 sewn up by now, so yes, that does make us comfortably the 3rd best team in the league for now.
However, after Chelsea get Ziyech, Werner and Havertz and we get Sancho, it’ll be about equal. Having Shaw over Alonso and even De Gea and Maguire, bad as they may be, over Kepa and Zouma tips the balance towards us in terms of the first XI, but their depth is streets ahead of us. I’d love to have CHO over James, Kovacic over Fred, James over Dalot/TFM, Mount over Lingard and Giroud over Ighalo.
It’ll be a very interesting battle for top 4 next season actually. I’d be inclined to add Wolves, an improved Arsenal and 2nd season Mourinho’s Spurs into the mix. Thankfully, none of their squads match up to ours or Chelsea’s.
However, after Chelsea get Ziyech, Werner and Havertz and we get Sancho, it’ll be about equal. Having Shaw over Alonso and even De Gea and Maguire, bad as they may be, over Kepa and Zouma tips the balance towards us in terms of the first XI, but their depth is streets ahead of us. I’d love to have CHO over James, Kovacic over Fred, James over Dalot/TFM, Mount over Lingard and Giroud over Ighalo.
It’ll be a very interesting battle for top 4 next season actually. I’d be inclined to add Wolves, an improved Arsenal and 2nd season Mourinho’s Spurs into the mix. Thankfully, none of their squads match up to ours or Chelsea’s.
The same Chelsea that won the EL last season, and finished 3rd in the league? I actually think that out of the three, Lampard is the most tactically naive. Chelsea are a club set up for constant managerial changes and even Rene Meulensteen can step and finish in the top 6 without much effort. They had two years to plan for the transfer ban, and Lampard had a whole season with a couple of their youth loanees to get used to his system before returning to Chelsea. Compared to the messes that Arteta and Ole had to pick up, I'd say he's been comfortably underwhelming so far, other than the good run / bounce at the start of the season.
I mean in general, not only in the game the other day. When you think that team was minus Kante, Pulisic & then you have Ziyech and Werner incoming they are going to be a force to be reckoned with next season. They have still had a few shoddy results but they seem very different now to how they were towards the start of the season. I guess the second leg vs Bayern will be a good barometer to see if they have improved.
It's a similar thing to when some berk makes a "we'll get 18 points from the next 6 games" thread, and we inevitably lose the first game.
Courtois gone
Azpi still here
Luiz gone
Cahill gone
Moses gone
Kante still here
Matic gone
Alonso still here
Pedro about to go
Costa gone
Hazard gone
Only 4/11 of our first choice title winning lineup still here, also that lineup had five world class players in it, our current squad have none (Azpi and Kante have declined from that level).
I'm pleased someone else sees the difference in squad depth - we are thin - not Ole's fault, he's bought well and moved on some, but he took over such a poorly curated squad that it's taking time to build it up.
We shouldn't be losing against a waning Leicester though either.
We are now officially the third best team in the league until super sunday
Get in!
Willian still at Chelsea
Batshuayi still at Chelsea
David Luiz - kicked out by Frank
Pedro - still at Chelsea, to be replaced by Ziyech
Kante - still at Chelsea
Zouma - still at Chelsea
Alonso - still at Chelsea
Tibo - replaced by the world's most expensive GK
Matic - replaced by Kovacic, Jorginho
Hazard - replaced by Pulisič
Diego Costa - replaced by Giroud + Abraham inadequately... to be replaced by Werner
Christensen - still at Chelsea
Cahill - replaced by Rudiger