What do we still need? Aka The never ending story

Devil may care

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It'll be interesting to see how Ole deploys Gomes this season. I think he has the potential to play as the #6 #8 and even as the #10. With Pogba possibly leaving next season we may have to look at Havertz who IMO is a player that is a cross between a #8 and #10 but will face competition from Bayern for his signature and I assume they'll be favourites unless Voller tells them to feck off.

I also think Tahith Chong will add to the strength in depth to the side especially on both wings. Then add Havertz, Sancho and a #6 like Fabian Ruiz and I feel we're in business with Gomes and Garner as back ups in midfield with Garner potentially playing in a pivot with Ruiz in some games which will relegate McTominay to the bench.
I know a lot of the avid academy followers say Gomes can play as a #8 or a #6 and I'm not saying I'm against trying it, but I get the feeling Ole and the staff are going to favour a more physically robust partnership in that double pivot. Agreed on Havertz, we'll be relying on our financial strength, Leverkusen's hatred for Bayern and hopefully the players will, but I'd be lying if I said that I don't think we'll most likely end up paying absurd money for Maddison.

Chong has never impressed me much to be honest, obviously I hope you're right but I don't think he'll cut it at United long term. Fabian Ruiz is an interesting choice for midfield, I remember @Invictus thought we should have moved for him when he was at Real Betis and had a fairly low buyout clause, he was very good for Napoli last season and if he shows consistency by following up with another good season he could be an option in the summer, the one snag being Napoli who are a nightmare to deal with.
 

Adnan

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I know a lot of the avid academy followers say Gomes can play as a #8 or a #6 and I'm not saying I'm against trying it, but I get the feeling Ole and the staff are going to favour a more physically robust partnership in that double pivot. Agreed on Havertz, we'll be relying on our financial strength, Leverkusen's hatred for Bayern and hopefully the players will, but I'd be lying if I said that I don't think we'll most likely end up paying absurd money for Maddison.

Chong has never impressed me much to be honest, obviously I hope you're right but I don't think he'll cut it at United long term. Fabian Ruiz is an interesting choice for midfield, I remember @Invictus thought we should have moved for him when he was at Real Betis and had a fairly low buyout clause, he was very good for Napoli last season and if he shows consistency by following up with another good season he could be an option in the summer, the one snag being Napoli who are a nightmare to deal with.
Benfica have a very interesting young player who looks very adept as a #6 with huge potential. He goes by the name of Florentino Luis and I've been very impressed with what I've seen from him thus far. I even mentioned him as someone we should bring in last season. Will turn 20 tomorrow and looks to have enormous potential.

 

bucky

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@Adnan Fabian Ruiz isn't a #6. He has played as a second striker in pre-season for Napoli and normally he's at his best as a #8. Similarly to Saul and Koke he was also used wide by Ancelotti last season. However, I agree, we should move heaven and earth to sign him. I think, currently, he's easily the best midfielder we could sign, even if he would cost a lot.

Florentino Luis has recently signed a new contract, his release clause was increased in the process.


There's no doubt he's very talented, but watching Camavinga for Rennes, I think I'd rather see us pay an absurd amount of money for him instead.
 

Adnan

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@Adnan Fabian Ruiz isn't a #6. He has played as a second striker in pre-season for Napoli and normally he's at his best as a #8. Similarly to Saul and Koke he was also used wide by Ancelotti last season. However, I agree, we should move heaven and earth to sign him. I think, currently, he's easily the best midfielder we could sign, even if he would cost a lot.

Florentino Luis has recently signed a new contract, his release clause was increased in the process.


There's no doubt he's very talented, but watching Camavinga for Rennes, I think I'd rather see us pay an absurd amount of money for him instead.
You're correct about Ruiz, he's a #8 from the little I saw of him I must've confused him with someone else.

Interesting you mention Camavinga who I have no knowledge of. Will be keeping a eye out for him when watching the French League. But right now I'm of to scout him on YouTube..:D
 

Devil may care

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Benfica have a very interesting young player who looks very adept as a #6 with huge potential. He goes by the name of Florentino Luis and I've been very impressed with what I've seen from him thus far. I even mentioned him as someone we should bring in last season. Will turn 20 tomorrow and looks to have enormous potential.

He was actually on my list of midfiel options a few posts above, I agree he looks very promising from what I've seen, didn't he sign a new deal with a crazy buyout clause recently though? If we were going for a younger option Tonali would be my pick but both look like superb young options.

Edit* I see @bucky has confirmed the buyout clause and if the Felix situation is anything to go by Benfica wont negotiate. :(
 

Adnan

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He was actually on my list of midfiel options a few posts above, I agree he looks very promising from what I've seen, didn't he sign a new deal with a crazy buyout clause recently though? If we were going for a younger option Tonali would be my pick but both look like superb young options.
He did sign a new deal recently ala Maguire last season. It'll be interesting how he gets on this season because he's physically very strong with good recovery pace along with the ability to pass the ball to a high standard. I think he's suited to playing in any league tbh.
 

Devil may care

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He did sign a new deal recently ala Maguire last season. It'll be interesting how he gets on this season because he's physically very strong with good recovery pace along with the ability to pass the ball to a high standard. I think he's suited to playing in any league tbh.
Agreed, I know some get touchy when it's said about black players but he's a great athlete and so physically he'll suit any league. Truth is we might be looking for two if Pogba goes, Fabian Ruiz or Saul as the more attacking option and a player like Luis, Tonali, Roca or Bentancur as the slightly more defensive half of the double pivot.
 

Adnan

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Agreed, I know some get touchy when it's said about black players but he's a great athlete and so physically he'll suit any league. Truth is we might be looking for two if Pogba goes, Fabian Ruiz or Saul as the more attacking option and a player like Luis, Tonali, Roca or Bentancur as the slightly more defensive half of the double pivot.
Marc Roca is another interesting option. I've liked what I've seen from him. He was heavily linked to Bayern at one point last season but is still at Espanyol. I don't think he'd cost a fortune either.
 

bucky

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Marc Roca is another interesting option. I've liked what I've seen from him. He was heavily linked to Bayern at one point last season but is still at Espanyol. I don't think he'd cost a fortune either.
40m release clause. Munich were linked this summer, but they don't seem ready to pay the release clause. He looked really good at the under 21s tournament during the summer, but a couple of hours ago, he was quite underwhelming against Sevilla. Not sure what to make of him. Could be another Illarramendi.

He did sign a new deal recently ala Maguire last season. It'll be interesting how he gets on this season because he's physically very strong with good recovery pace along with the ability to pass the ball to a high standard. I think he's suited to playing in any league tbh.
Agreed, I know some get touchy when it's said about black players but he's a great athlete and so physically he'll suit any league. Truth is we might be looking for two if Pogba goes, Fabian Ruiz or Saul as the more attacking option and a player like Luis, Tonali, Roca or Bentancur as the slightly more defensive half of the double pivot.
I think what impressed me most about Florentino, that despite his age he looked like he had great awareness defensively, which usually takes a bit longer to develop.
 

In Rainbows

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I know a lot of the avid academy followers say Gomes can play as a #8 or a #6 and I'm not saying I'm against trying it, but I get the feeling Ole and the staff are going to favour a more physically robust partnership in that double pivot. Agreed on Havertz, we'll be relying on our financial strength, Leverkusen's hatred for Bayern and hopefully the players will, but I'd be lying if I said that I don't think we'll most likely end up paying absurd money for Maddison.
I also agree that we might see Ole prefer a more physical partnership, but I just disagree with Ole if that's the case. I'm a firm believer in the midfield being the sum of its parts. With Pogba, we're still lacking a defensive presence, energy, and someone who can run the game through their passing. To me, Gomes is a potential midfielder who can take up that passing role. I don't need that role to be some stronger guy. What matters is that that particular role is fulfilled by one of the midfielders. For example, would we not take Scholes to be that player despite being a small player? Would we not take Modric to be that player despite being slight in build? What about Xavi?

That role at its peak is taken up by players who are brilliant technically so they're essentially the safest passing option for their teammates, and are great at distributing the ball. Scholes, Xavi, and Modric are perfect examples.


For this thread, we're still missing that midfielder, a defensive midfielder, and a right winger.
 

Devil may care

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Marc Roca is another interesting option. I've liked what I've seen from him. He was heavily linked to Bayern at one point last season but is still at Espanyol. I don't think he'd cost a fortune either.
From bucky's post it seems he has a €40M buyout clause, ideal buy to bolster our midfield in January, even if long term he isn't the full starting answer, I think he has enough qualities to at least be a good squad player.

I think what impressed me most about Florentino, that despite his age he looked like he had great awareness defensively, which usually takes a bit longer to develop.
Agreed, his positional game has looked good when I've seen him, especially for his age, it's that type of footballing maturity that makes me content to wait for Sancho for the RW role, his composure and awareness in the final 3rd sets him apart from the other young wingers out there IMO.

I also agree that we might see Ole prefer a more physical partnership, but I just disagree with Ole if that's the case. I'm a firm believer in the midfield being the sum of its parts. With Pogba, we're still lacking a defensive presence, energy, and someone who can run the game through their passing. To me, Gomes is a potential midfielder who can take up that passing role. I don't need that role to be some stronger guy. What matters is that that particular role is fulfilled by one of the midfielders. For example, would we not take Scholes to be that player despite being a small player? Would we not take Modric to be that player despite being slight in build? What about Xavi?

That role at its peak is taken up by players who are brilliant technically so they're essentially the safest passing option for their teammates, and are great at distributing the ball. Scholes, Xavi, and Modric are perfect examples.


For this thread, we're still missing that midfielder, a defensive midfielder, and a right winger.
I don't disagree but I also think what you are laying out here essentially requires moving Pogba on, getting a very solid DM to pair with Gomes at the base and we'd still need that #10 for the system as well as the RW, as right now our only hope internally for that role is Gomes, we'll never be serious PL challengers with Lingard starting there, so if Gomes plays deeper then that still needs addressing.
 

In Rainbows

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I don't disagree but I also think what you are laying out here essentially requires moving Pogba on, getting a very solid DM to pair with Gomes at the base and we'd still need that #10 for the system as well as the RW, as right now our only hope internally for that role is Gomes, we'll never be serious PL challengers with Lingard starting there, so if Gomes plays deeper then that still needs addressing.
No, because Pogba and Gomes would be accomplishing two different roles.

Pogba---Gomes
------DM------

Pogba being the main creative player of the midfield, and Gomes being the main passer in the setup. Both help each other in their roles, but both have a different primary role. With this midfield, the midfield would accomplish all of its tasks to the side. It would be complete.

Pogba and Gomes can each do each other's role, it's just that I see Gomes as being more disciplined than Pogba and is more satisfied with whatever he's tasked with than Pogba is. There's no denying that Pogba has a great passing range, great technical skill, etc... but it's also a job that he strays away from. That's why I have Gomes doing the pivot role like Xavi, Scholes, and Modric. This of course is entirely dependent on whether he's good enough to make that step up.
 
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Adnan

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@Devil may care

I like Roca and think there's alot of potential still to be unlocked in his game. But we will target Longstaff for the holding/#8 role IMO.
He's coming back from a serious injury currently but did assist Newcastle's only goal yesterday when he came off the bench with 15 minutes remaining.
 

Devil may care

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No, because Pogba and Gomes would be accomplishing two different roles.

Pogba---Gomes
------DM------

Pogba being the main creative player of the midfield, and Gomes being the main passer in the setup. Both help each other in their roles, but both have a different primary role. With this midfield, the midfield would accomplish all of its tasks to the side. It would be complete.

Pogba and Gomes can each do each other's role, it's just that I see Gomes as being more disciplined than Pogba and is more satisfied with whatever he's tasked with than Pogba is. There's no denying that Pogba has a great passing range, great technical skill, etc... but it's also a job that he strays away from. That's why I have Gomes doing the pivot role like Xavi, Scholes, and Modric. This of course is entirely dependent on whether he's good enough to make that step up.
Gotcha, I see what you're going for and if Pep was manager you might have gotten something like this, but Ole seems to be setting us out with a 4-2-3-1, now I personally wouldn't have went for that with the options we have, but if he sticks with it and doesn't swap and change formations that will be some progress I feel as you can't build playing chemistry if players roles are changing every other game.

I am pretty sure we have had this discussion before about where Gomes should play, apologies if I have you mixed up with someone else, and I know other academy watchers feel he's better deeper, but for now I'd be content to see him get some regular game time at #10 over Lingard, Pereira and Mata, just to see if he can establish himself in the team and before he ends up doing a Sancho on us. You've mentioned Scholes a few times and if you recall he started out playing as a sort or #10/SS for us and then moved deeper, same thing could happen with Gomes once he's proven he can handle the PL and perform at that level.


@Devil may care

I like Roca and think there's alot of potential still to be unlocked in his game. But we will target Longstaff for the holding/#8 role IMO.
He's coming back from a serious injury currently but did assist Newcastle's only goal yesterday when he came off the bench with 15 minutes remaining.
I'm still not sold on him, with options like Luis, Roca, Tonali, Neves and Bentancur around I hope we aren't tunnel visioned with Longstaff because he's English, and are going to watch them all this season and go for the best performer, not just base the choice on the birthplace on the passport.
 

Foxbatt

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Our transfer policies has been always in the stone age. Even SAF thought small players may not make it in the PL but he is as wrong on this as his choice of Moyes as the manager. Talent and application always outshines the size of the player. Especially in the modern age with the video replay and now VAR. There is no point it trying to buy English players of they are no good.
 

NoPace

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I'd say we pretty clearly need 3 or 4 midfielders, one to start on the right, one to start as a #10 and one to compete with McTominay. We'll know if Fred needs replacing at the end of the year:

---------------Martial--------------- (Greenwood)
Rashford------#10-------------RW (James, Lingard, Gomes)
----------Pogba--------------------- (Fred or a new #8)
-------------McTominay------------- (DM)
Shaw-----------------Wan-Bissaka (Dalot, LB)
-------Maguire--Lindelof------------ (Tuanzebe, Jones or Smalling, Bailly)
--------------De Gea---------------- (Romero)


-I'd guess the move here might be to spend huge on one of the young but already producing attacking midfielders like Sancho (ideally) or Havertz or Aouar and then maybe a cheaper 2nd one like Ryan Fraser on a free or a mid-range buy like Neres.

Remarkably, our backup attacking midfielders still look a bit lacking but there's good variety (James a winger, Lingard useful in big, open games and Gomes has skill and could help break down defences) and also if we add a decent central midfielder Pogba can really be the backup #10 if we need him.

-Back 6 looks good apart from McTominay badly needing competition and Pogba needing a genuine backup so we can play a midfield 3 at times, use him as a 10 as a plan B and also still move the ball forward if he's hurt or suspended. Could be Fred considering he attracted a 50M transfer fee, has caps for Brazil and was apparently one of the better players on a team that made the quarter finals of the CL, though he may also need a move since pre-season did not suggest he's doing very well and may just need a move to another league. It's not insane to think that if Fred has a stunningly good year or he leaves and we buy the right player, we can get by on 3 midfielders for these 2 spots, though we'd still need a 4th guy, whether that's Garner (really young for this role) or more likely Fred, or another transfer, maybe a cheap punt here.

- We may not need a new backup LB if Dalot can handle those games and Laird will be ready at 19 to be the #4 fb, but I doubt it. A cheap signing of a left-footed backup LB makes sense, some 23-25 year old entering his prime but we can still recoup the 10M we spent on him in 2-3 years if he doesn't want work out.

So, I'd say 120M for the big transfer, 30-40M for the second and another 30M for the new midfielder and 10M for a mid-table Ligue 1 LB and we're challenging Spurs for 3rd place and still quite frustrated actually.

Also of course Pogba may leave and then the big transfer is covered financially but we need to somehow find a creative passer of an 8 at his level, even getting to 80% of that would surely be another 50-60M.
 

croadyman

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Maybe we should have a look at bringing in a CM who is a free agent because we are badly lacking depth in that area.
 

redIndianDevil

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We need a deep lying playmaker desperately, there were so many instances when there was a clean pass through the middle but our players always took the easiest sideways pass making us predictable. We need a connecting CM who can pick the ball from the defence and quickly transition it to dangerous areas in attack, Pogba alone cannot do both.
 

Dan_F

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Well I for one am shocked that we look short of quality options in midfield and on the right :houllier:
 

CallyRed

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Swap Lingard with someone like Maddison and we would look a completely different side going forward.
 

Escobar

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Benfica have a very interesting young player who looks very adept as a #6 with huge potential. He goes by the name of Florentino Luis and I've been very impressed with what I've seen from him thus far. I even mentioned him as someone we should bring in last season. Will turn 20 tomorrow and looks to have enormous potential.

That's the kind of players we might could get in January
 

VeevaVee

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DM, CM, a 10 and a RW would give us options. A LB to be competition for Shaw would be good too.
 

MattyB1986

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RW, CM, CDM are the three main positions we desperately need to be more competitive to be a real top 3-1 challengers, in my opinion.
 

Rob Bowman

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Well for my money we are headed in the right direction. Still gutted we could not get another CM in here over summer but that boat has sailed. Thing is this current team sparks a surprising amount of passion from me. They play the "United Way" (at least according to me for whatever that is worth). So it just makes me want us to get the next few pieces to finish this off. Someone on these boards commented that this team feels like the Pool team a few years back. As if we are seeing the genesis of something special.

I certainly hope so :keano:.

So here is what we have now that I completely agree with...


---------------------De Gea---------------------
AWB--------Linderlof------Maguire-------Shaw
----------------????-------Pogba----------------
??????--------------?????-------------Rashford
---------------------Martial---------------------

So a strong 8 for me starting, and....

---------------------Romero---------------------
Dalot--------Bailly-----------Jones------Young
----------------McT-------Matic----------------
James--------------Gomes-------------Lingard
------------------Greenwood--------------------


Now I love Mata and would have liked to see a bit more of him as against Wolves, as I see a use for his cleverness against a packed defenses. I also know many here rate McT. I love his drive and energy, but honestly on offense he can not find good positions between defensive lines. He was just being redundant to Shaw, Maguire and Pogba time and time again why we tried to play out of the back (ever notice we can only play out from the back down one side of the other?). As for Pereira and Sanchez, I personally do not rate them and would like them sold. I mean honestly how do we still have Pereira and lose Herrera? How does that happen? We won 8 of 10 games (drew one and lost the other) last year whjen Herrera and Pogba played together. Can you imagine us with both of them now? Just having Herrera's leadership on the pitch would help so much right now. Again boat has sailed... :).

As for who to get, I sure hope we make CL this year as I really feel we will go all in for Sancho which would be amazing. Now maybe Gomes can step up and that would be fantastic, but I certainly would love to see a true ACM of quality here starting *yesterday*. We also need a DCM immediately. I do not have the answer for this but hope we move for one soon.
 

Devil may care

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I see people wanting to go back to 4-3-3 and I was keen on the diamond myself, but I think Ole is going with the 4-2-3-1 as he wants the front 4 to press, especially the 3 behind the striker and that will never be Pogba's game. Personally him in a double pivot is still risky IMO, especially without a top class partner but it is what it is.

Longer term LB might need addressing and we'll see if we have the right partner for Maguire as the season progesses. For now though there's 3 glaringly obvious holes in the team.

RW - I saw the Sancho article about his big new contract at Dortmund, maybe it has a buyout clause in it to make business simple in the summer, but if he's planning to stay there longer term then I'd go for Chiesa.

#10 - This position is a mess, failed to get Felix, Dybala or Eriksen, stuck with Lingard who can press but offers no creativity on the ball and barely scores any goals, and the back-up is Mata who is well past his best and can't even do the pressing part of the role. I know Gomes has his fan club on the Caf but we still need to buy in this position IMO, Havertz is my #1 choice but I accept beating Bayern to a German player is a tall order, especially in our current state.

After that I guess there's Maddison, I'm undecided on him, I think he's a decent player but I don't think he'll ever be truly top class, he doesn't score many goals and despite his chance creation stats he only got 7 assists last season, is that bad finishing from the strikers or his the margin for what's considered a chance created quite wide? Another option could be Isco as part of a deal for Pogba if Real come back in for him next summer.

CM - Personally I feel we need 2, 1 to replace Herrera and 1 to replace Matic, but I know lots of the Caf want Garner in one of those spots, but we'll need 2 if Pogba goes which I feel has a pretty good chance of happening unfortunately.

For me if Pogba goes Ole will need a box to box #8 and a DLP for the double pivot, for the #8 I'd go for one of Saul/Bentancur/Fabian Ruiz and for the holder I'd go for one from Florentino Luis/Tonali/Roca.
 

bosnian_red

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Think from our current starters, we have 4 very ordinary players that probably need improving on in some way, with currently players there who are just run od the mill, bang average premier league players who don't excel in anything and wouldn't stick out at any club in the league as the main player. Shaw, Lingard, McTominay and even though he's improved in the past year, Lindelof. It's just painfully average from all 4 of them and I can probably point out a similar level of player or better from at least 12/13 teams in the league to those 4 in their positions. On top of them, whoever our RW is going to be inconsistent/unproven, but at least there we have unpredictability and potential.

Now of course, we don't need signing for all of those positions, but Pogba will need replacing in a year anyway, so there is plenty of work to be done. Can see Gomes become the #10 and Greenwood become the 3rd attacker long term if we don't manage to sign Sancho, but not sure what the case will be at CB or LB long term. Tuanzebe is decent but tbh I think he'll just be more of the same. Shaw won't ever be more than just average IMO, and with his fitness record, probably shouldn't be an automatic starter. Midfield we desperately need Garner to come good, otherwise we need a whole new midfield as Pogba will leave next summer. It's not a massive amount of rebuilding, but important to actually do it next summer and not go another season with big holes. 2 midfielders will be a must next season, and that has to be a holding mid and an all round mid, otherwise we won't have control of games.
 

Woeisme

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I was unlucky enough to be at OT for most of our games in the run in last season. Since the start of the season I have studied the team carefully and objectively and I do believe I have identified what it is that we are missing. I'm somewhat surprised at how obvious the solution may be! In my opinion, the only thing that we are missing, to enable us to challenge for the FOURTH place spot is....................... A midfield

There you're welcome
 

Sea-Cow

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Anyone have thoughts on Miguel Almiron at Newcastle? I would have assumed anyone from the MLS is going to struggle, but I have am impressed.

He is fast, tricky and direct and seems to be really good. He turns 26 in February so he still has a few years left in the tank.

Would probably be cheaper than Maddison and Sancho, if I had to guess.
 

golden_blunder

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This is where I’m at:

2 cms or 1 DM + 1 cm (+1 IF Pogba leaves)
1 cb
1 lb
1 RW/rwf
1 gk if DeGea doesn’t sign

Gonna be a long rebuild
 

VeevaVee

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This is where I’m at:

2 cms or 1 DM + 1 cm (+1 IF Pogba leaves)
1 cb
1 lb
1 RW/rwf
1 gk if DeGea doesn’t sign

Gonna be a long rebuild
Same but with a LW too. By the time we get anywhere close we'll have more issues that need sorting. Painful.