No chance our board is a bunch of softies and don't take decisive action like Chelsea's
What is Ole doing!
- Thread starter UpWithRivers
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Fergie does have some brainfart moments. He wasn't flawless like you all think.
Ole had some brainfart substitutions, but when it doesn't work, then people use that CV not good enough thing.
Ole needs to win a trophy so people can shut up a bit when he makes mistakes. That's the bottom line we all agreed. Win a trophy, Ole. This is his make or break season, and I'm backing him.
The problem is not getting tactics wrong or losing games but the mentality and how we lose games. Ole is conservative and likes to play it safe, this is not the utd way and will not be acceptable to a good chunk of utd fans. Sitting back and protecting a lead in the last 10-15 mins against a strong opposition is understandable but if were 1-0 up with 40 minutes left and start sitting back and inviting pressure which leads us to dropping points when we could have continued the way we were playing and finished of the game, then this is not acceptable and specially when on paper the opposition is significantly weaker than us.
Why would a new manager sell all his best players? Can you give me a few examples of when that has happened before? Where does this idea come from? Because its absolutely absurd to think a new manager would sell the best players.
If you're gonna defend Ole you have to do better than that. Its the worst argument ive ever seen. But maybe thats the best you can come up with =/
Like I said, it was a brain fart what he did. Whatever discussion the staff had during half time must be something in it.
They did a big mistake, I never shy away from that fact.
But this things do happen every season, how we bounce back from that is what matters.
Not too long ago Aston Villa schooled Liverpool with VVD before injury, City got battered last season as well didn't they?
Brain fart moments do happen.
I don't like managers who think that are tactically obsessed. For example LVG took things to an extreme were players had to act like chess pieces much to detriment of the team. However expecting 20 year old something players to understand the game in enough detail to understand his and his team mates weaknesses and strengths and be efficient with minimum guidance is also damaging. There were some players who were like managers on the pitch (Keane, Robson, Conte, Zidane, Ancelotti etc) but these players are few.
As said by a previous posters. Every manager commits brain farts every now and then so we can't expect Ole to be flawless. However some of the mistakes being made on the pitch are repeated again and again with no one bothering solving them once and for all. For example Maguire shouldn't be committing himself forward the way he does, our defenders should be instructed to pass the ball to midfield more rather then try to bypass it through long balls etc. These mistakes are costly. That is why clubs pay good money to hire top managers and coaches. If that wasn't the case then Chelsea would be managed by Drogba, Liverpool by Gerrard, Inter by Zanetti, Juventus by Del Piero, Real by Raul and City by Goater. Rest assured that we're not the only ones who love our legends back in some capacity.
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media is no longer dominated by ex-Liverpool players, was the case maybe 15 years ago.
Rio, Keane, Neville, Scholes, even Hargreaves are pundits now.
Good post, but i have to disagree there. Maguire should be the most advanced CB, since hes a beast in aerial duels and you always want the CB with the most pace to cover behind him. If you send Lindelof up to do the aerial duels and Maguire to cover, you might end up in a scenario where the former loses the duel and the latter ends up in a footrace
The reason Maguire pushes up is because hes pretty good on the ball actually and Fred/McTomminay does not have the skills to outplay other midfields 2v2 so they need support from our CB's. Hopefully Pogba can flourish in that role and develop his tactical awareness and discipline a bit, because i honestly think that would solve a lot of our problems in our build up
If not dominated there are still a fair amount of them. And from our players numbered all of them bar Rio maybe have been critical of the way we play.
Wish I could report posters for moaning in 90% of their posts. You need some joy in your life. Get more fresh air.
All those have been critical of Ole and Man Utd since he's been here. He's not been given an easy ride.
It’s funny how the last quote is from Jesse saying we should come out for the first 15-20 to kill the game, when we were for the majority a second half team last season.
Either way I think Ole will probably end up upstairs in the long term.
Edit - But I’ll be fully behind him while he’s at the wheel.
Fergie wasn’t flawless so he’s no better than any other manager?
We cant criticise Lingard as Messi has also given the ball away before...etc
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Winning a trophy will make no difference unless its the League or the CL as that is all that counts.
The narrative wouldnt be any different had we won that penalty shootout last season. Van Gaal was sacked after winning an FA Cup. Mourinho was sacked after winning two cups. Why? Because in both cases the league wasn't working out.
This is a fair criticism, I think Ole it's probably too hands off in that sense of going into the minutae for players who aren't quite there.
very good.you can
I'm glad that someone spot that out
Ye I agree
I get the feeling Ole is still learning on the job despite his relative success last season in securing 2nd place. As I’ve said before, that Newcastle game could have gone either way at 1-1. Thankfully we took our chances. I feel Ole doesn’t have a Plan B when the going gets tough.
If we had someone who is actually a football coach and not just an armchair coach like most of us, it would interesting to hear how they would set up and instruct our team to play. Football manager is a lot easier than real life
Lets start from the basics here. Pace is a defender's biggest enemy. I've seen legends like Baresi and Maldini getting literally skinned by faster forwards, the former was sent to retirement by a young Cristian Vieri. The reality is that no matter how good or experienced a CB can be he can't catch someone whose clearly outpacing him. Just ask Bruce and Pally when they came face to face against Romario and Stoichkov.
Of course there are ways to mitigate the issue. In a deep line Maguire is one of the finest CBs in the world. He's got the frame, the character and the aerial prowess of an old fashioned EPL CB + he's a decent passer. Which was the reason why Mourinho who was a big fan of a deep defensive line wanted Harry so much.
A deep line won't cut it with United though and that was something Mou got wrong big time. That's because too many clubs are just happy to sit back and get a point against us. That means that United will have to take risks and commit more bodies forward. I also understand Harry for going forward as well. The guy got the passing ability and the technique to slot in midfield and do damage. We're not talking of the late 80s EPL CB here who would shoot the ball at the stands the moment an opponent gets within the 5m range to him. Maguire is far better then that.
Having said that, I do question having Maguire going forward, at least in the current setup. The reason being that if caught in a counter attack, then Harry is as good as gone. He simply lack the pace to track back and be a bit of nuisance to the striker. If Maguire is caught in midfield in a quick counter then he's as much of a danger for the opponent as SAF is while the game on Telly.
If you ask me there are two ways we can skin that particular cat.
1- We coach Maguire not to go forward and let Varane do the running instead. Varane is as technically gifted as Maguire is and he's got pace to track back. There's nothing shameful in that either. An ageing Irwin had to teach himself not to go forward too much even though he was by far the most technically gifted defender we had in that treble defense.
2- We instruct Varane and one of our fullbacks (preferably AWB) to stay deep whenever Maguire decides to go forward. These 2 defenders can close the gaps or at least hold the fort until more help can come from midfield.
“Having said that, I do question having Maguire going forward, at least in the current setup. The reason being that if caught in a counter attack, then Harry is as good as gone. He simply lack the pace to track back and be a bit of nuisance to the striker. If Maguire is caught in midfield in a quick counter then he's as much of a danger for the opponent as SAF is while the game on Telly.”
A small sample size but we saw that with Maguire v Newcastle. On the flip side, after a so so first 15 minutes v Wolves (getting used to team, PL so understandable), there was a point when Traore ran at Varane and he used experience to position himself in such a way to shepherd Traore to an area he wanted him to go to.
If Maguire is regularly last man, we’re fecked. Liverpool manage it well with Henderson or Fabinho slotting in when FBs race upfield.
And on Ole, I’m still a fan (overall) but we’ve got to start with and maintain, intensity and dictate more games, especially against mid/lower table teams. Too many sideways/cautious passes which negates some of the qualities of our attacking players (pace and wanting the ball in space/going forward rather than with a CH up their arse). I don’t know if he doesn’t tell them or they don’t listen … if the former, not good. If the latter, tell them again and start dropping them.
Looking for a big reaction v West Ham. Got to keep pace with other big three and then see if we can take points off them when play them. Big ask, not impossible
I dont know man.
As fast as Varane is, hes still going to get into trouble if we get caught on the break and the opposing striker/winger gets a good head start on him and while AWB might not be especially competent going forward i doubt Ole would be willing to turn him into some sort of pseudo-CB since he does want his fullbacks to provide width
One thing i noticed under Ole is that we are very reluctant to do progressive ball carries in our own half. Maguire/Lindelof/AWB and Fred/McTomminay all play very safe during our build up and pass the ball every time they get closed down. Of course losing the ball when building from the back can be catastrophic and im not suggesting Maguire should be nutmegging strikers left and right, but if we were more willing to take the ball into space, it would be a lot easier to create that numerical advantage you need to beat the high press
The reason i want Pogba in CM is because he does this. Now i am fully aware that hes gotten his pocket picked more than once while trying this, often leading to us conceding big chances or goals. I also want out CB's to push up with the ball to help our build up play. Whether that is Maguire, Varane or Phil Jones, does not really matter
No one should be left alone at the back. However one need to create a balance between committing bodies forward (a necessary evil in an EPL that is becoming more defensive by the hour) and not creating too many gaps at the back. I think we all can agree that Varane is quicker to track back then Maguire.
Regarding Ole, I can understand why he's got a more laissez faire attitude to the game. Micromanagement might be tolerated in the Dutch or Italian league were players are raised to acknowledge and appreciate tactics at a young age however its not really liked in the EPL. His three predecessors faced mutinies and quite frankly lost their jobs because of that. However while every United fan need to be grateful that we're not facing the same old circus we've witness with Moyes, LVG and Mou it doesn't take away the fact that managers and coaches are there to manage and coach. Some aspects of our game simply makes no sense. As you said these cautious-sideway passes do not make sense in a team whose forward line is simply brimming with talent
Bute
Funny thing is when it comes to players pretty much everyone agrees that need to go for the best ones. No one would argue against bringing let's say Kimmich to give Fred a chance, because he's done a fairly good job, gets the team, and while he makes an odd mistake here and there he mostly delivers. But when it comes to coaching the logic is totally different.
I think something we can all agree on is that Ole's coaching skills are not world-class. There are many here who think he's below average, many who think he's good, but we all know he's not world-class.
So why are we settling for anything below world-class? Specially considering we have 3 world-class coaching competing against us in the same league.
I think something we can all agree on is that Ole's coaching skills are not world-class. There are many here who think he's below average, many who think he's good, but we all know he's not world-class.
So why are we settling for anything below world-class? Specially considering we have 3 world-class coaching competing against us in the same league.
Interestingly I just watched the United stand with Paul Ince and he said exactly the same the same thing as this this thread - Quote - 'I dont know what they are doing'. So I guess even the pros havnt a clue.If we had someone who is actually a football coach and not just an armchair coach like most of us, it would interesting to hear how they would set up and instruct our team to play. Football manager is a lot easier than real life
That's the key. When you win regularly sometimes your occassional brainfarts are forgiven. Pep made costly mistakes in last CL final against Chelsea. He too was criticised but his trophies simply eclipse his mistakes.
Ole needs to win some trophy and then win some more regularly to get himself same kind of immunity. Unfortunately to me it doesn't look like he will win anything with united. He doesn't have that instant in-game decision making ability. For that elite managers are paid in millions, or they are called 'elite'.
I think Ole has done a splendid job of rebuilding. I do not belive we are in rebuilding mode anymore. It is time for the club and supporters to wholeheartedly thank Ole for the work, shake hands and say goodbye.
I'd argue the main reason is that in football, unlike other team-sports where a couple of signings can change the fate of a club/franchise, it usually takes more time and it demands more patience to build a new team from scratch. In this sense, it took Solskjaer two full seasons to build his team, and now, it's only fair he gets the chance to manage it. I don't have much faith in his tactical acumen either, but he's done enough to earn his chance.
But he didn't had to build a team from scratch didn't he? It was a team with low morale but wasn't a poor talented squad by any means. I agree a manager needs time, but by time I mean a full season.
The argument about x number of years being necessary for a rebuild is a total myth. Actually the whole "rebuild" narrative is nonsense.
Which other top team in Europe uses this rebuild narrative? It's been implanted here by the media when Ole arrived but the way I see it there's nothing different from what Ole has done, rebuilding wise, to what previous managers did. They all bought players they wanted and sold players they didn't.
So what exactly has Ole done differently that it's classified as a "rebuilding" or "building from scratch"?
One thing we can agree on is that he has to deliver this year, there's no two ways about it. We have the team, we have the talent, I'd go as far as saying this is our most talented squad since the 2008 treble. So no more excuses, we need titles and when the moment comes there be no where to hide for Ole.
We have an excellent squad coached by a below average manager.
Would be plenty more joy in my life IF we actually had competent coaching staff behind the inexperienced manager but we don't
Because LVG missed out on CL football, and Mourinho was clearly on the way to missing out on it.
If we finish 2nd with no trophy again, Ole won't be sacked.
I am not talking about years upon years of rebuilding, and i am certainly not using it as an excuse for him. I could point out that one of the most decorated managers in the history of the game said that getting that particular squad to second place by amassing 81 points was his greatest achievement. And no, that man wasn't Solskjaer. But i guess someone can retort that it was Mourinho's way of saying that he wanted out of the club. Instead, let's have a look at Solakjaer's preferred 4231 when he landed the job: I believe it looked somewhat like this: DDG - Shaw/Smalling/Jones/Young - Matic/Herrera/Pogba - Rashford-Lingard-Martial. Out of the ten outfield players, only two (Shaw and Rashford) have maintained their original roles under Solskjaer. So, whatever you or i think, the man who gets paid to make these calls obviously decided that the first team was in need of an overhaul. What i argued in my initial post was that it takes time for a new team to gel together. It has, indeed, been a bumpy ride and there were definitely periods when it seemed that Solskajer would share a fate similar to his predecessors, but he survived. And to be frank, since i have complained more than once about his tactical choices over the years, this is a skill in itself. That's why i argued that he should get his chance.
I would also argue that there hasn't really any rebuilding at United from 2013 up until 2019. On the contrary, throughout this time, we were making signings on the basis that we would challenge right from the start. Moyes signed two ready-made solutions who were supposed to have an immediate impact. Then LvG completely ripped up the squad to implement his style. Finally, Mourinho came in and signed Zlatan, Lukaku, Pogba, Matic, Mikhitaryan, Sanchez, Bailly, Lindelof. Except for Pogba, has anyone really been a success at United? This is the quality we're talking about?
Despite what many people think or want to believe, "rebuilding" isn't just a narrative in team-sports. It's a reality and at the end/start of team-cycles, it's a necessity. It's the never-ending race to maintain momentum and instil the belief that there's always room for improvement. All you need to do is take a look at what has transpired just a couple of miles away from OT. Just because a manager isn't Pep, Klopp or Tuchel doesn't mean that they are rubbish and they have nothing to offer. And it doesn't mean that there's no work to be done at a club except adding the final pieces to the puzzle. A few miles away from OT then, a certain Roberto Mancini got appointed as the City manager in December 2009 while the club was wallowing in mediocrity with a record of 6-8-2 in the PL. After the new manager bounce, City eventually missed out on top-four, lost a semi in the League Cup in the 93rd minute against United and crushed out of the FA Cup after a defeat at Stoke. Does it sound familiar? Next season, they secured CL football near the end by finishing third on 70 points, while they failed in the EL. They won the FA Cup that year, but with signings like Yaya Toure, David Silva, Kolarov and Dzeko, on top of talents like Tevez, Zabaleta and Kompany, that's not something to write home about, huh? City insisted on him, they spent the big bucks on Aguero and also bought wisely in the case of Nasri and Clichy. Toure dropped in the CM role, both partnerships up-front, Dzeko/Aguero & Nasri/Silva were terrorizing defences, both FBs could overlap and City won the league with +18 points and +33 goals compared to their previous season. They also adopted a possession-style football that follows them to this day.
The difference between Mancini then/Solskjaer now and Moyes/LvG/Mourinho is that when the latter got the sack, it felt that they were done, their respective teams' cycles had ended with very little to show for. This is not the case with this United side, and it wasn't with City back in 2011. You can tell that we're on an upward trajectory, at least squad-wise. That we still have a lot of potential. I will admit that the FA Cup helped Mancini's case and, as Neville said, the EL defeat may hang over Solskjaer for a long time.
He did that with his work and not by the grace of a shining CV (that faded away in the case of Jose and Louis), and that's why i'm willing to give him the season. But yeah, he has to deliver. Very few people will argue with that.
I think the club will continue to back him even if we don't win anything this season. The club appears to be stabilizing under him. Last year was the first time we qualified for the CL two years running since Fergie. I know a lot of money has been spent during his time, but a lot of money was spent by the managers before him too and we were terrible. The money has been invested well for the most part, and he's done a good job. The club probably think you could bring in someone like Conte for a year and maybe get some short term success, but if things work out with Ole we could potentially have many years of sustained success.
This. It's obvious to anyone with any sense.
The only thing I can see us winning this season is the FA cup or carabao cup and that isn't enough unless we challenge for the league and / or champions league
The problem with ole isn't that he just makes the odd mistake, its that he just isn't good enough across the board to be managing a club of our stature and his CV demonstrates that.
LVG and Mourinho had some of the best CV's in the game and look how that turned out.
Who do you suggest the club should hire this time?