What is wrong with the way we play?

[tomaldinho1]

Perhaps you are not comprehending anything I’m writing. Point two is the exact opposite of what I said. It is YOU who said Ole and Jose were similar, unlike Ten Hag who is trying to get us to build from the back. I said that because both managers did not build from the back does NOT make them similar. Otherwise you may as well have added Sir Alex to your comparisons. There was a difference between Ole and Jose, just as there was with Fergie.

As for point 3, I have no trouble ‘understanding’ anything thank you. I do however, dismiss the relevance of what a manager has done in another league when I am seeing him unable to do it in this one. Expectations based on Ajax performance were fine last summer when he joined. In fact, they were logical. You hope that he brings Ajax principles and values the passing of the ball. However, that is obviously superseded by what is ACTUALLY happening during his tenure as Manchester United manager. And in that respect, what comfort is it supposed to be to me that his Ajax team, like just about all Ajax teams ever, played good football if his United team doesn’t?

You literally grouped SAF and Ole and Mou together, not me. There were many iterations of SAF teams but they played very differently. That shouldn’t need to be explained on as United forum.

If you had read what I wrote I actually said Ole and Mou were similar and ETH actually just reverted to that basic style of football when he saw how bad were versus Brentford and Brighton. There was also very little point playing out from the back with DDG in goal, I assume you understand why that would be, so this season is the first time the concerted effort to do it is happening.

This is not rocket science.

 

[Borys]

Just because both Jose and Ole didn’t pass out from the back doesn’t mean that they were the same. Otherwise neither did Sir Alex. I’ve said what the differences are between Ole and Ten Hag, and that is that we were on the whole, a consistent attacking threat. We scored goals. Weak teams came to Old Trafford and conceded the 3+ goals they should do. That has simply not happened under Ten Hag.

And there is no bias. Ten Hag’s Ajax tenure is about as relevant as Ole’s Molde one. What comfort do I take from Ten Hag showing he can play good football at Ajax and showing that he cannot at Manchester United?

And there is no reason why we should be starting the season accepting that we are going to finish behind Liverpool. And they don’t have ‘no European football’, they are in the Europa League. Everything was there for us to move ahead of them this season. We were better than them last season, we spent money, our manager is in theory further along in his work. The manager is just not good enough.

And the issue of Bruno is another example of the manager not being good enough. He is the one who apparently green lit his new contract, he’s the one that gave him the armband and made him the centrepiece and ultimately, he is the man who picks the team and implements his ideas. So again, because he could construct a team that can pass and move in Holland means nothing to me if he can’t do it in Manchester.

This is where I'm at as well. Actually under Ole we had a clear direction of being counter-attacking team, even with very limited players (Lindelof, Maguire, McTominay, Fred) he made this work somehow effectively. We did struggle against low blocks because this team wasn't drilled enough against those, and we did rely on individual brilliance. The midfield was uninspiring but at least high-energy that made it easier to battle in midfield and create turnovers. I do think Ole overachieved with that team when we finished second. Under Ten Hag there is no clear direction as of yet, and we have much much better players now.

The bolded part is what troubles me. I can't get this "he only wins games he was expected to win anyway" out of my head. This was the case at Ajax, he was expected to dominate the league and he did just that. There's another aspect of European football, BUT it's just so much easier to go out in those games if you're cruising in the league with high confidence.

There are plenty of excuses that apply to Ten Hag this and previous season Man Utd regime. However, I struggle to think of something he did that impacted our play in positive manner since the cup win. People talk about us trying to win the ball higher up the pitch, but we've been applying this tactic terribly (leaving Casemiro on his own in midfield). How does he get credit for that? If he told those players to play tiki taka, will people defend him that he clearly wanted us to copy prime Barca, it's just there aren't many Xavi's and Iniesta's around - even if you have 400m to spend over 2 summers?
Manager role it so show slow progress, learn and adjust on the way. I don't see ETH doing that so far.

 

[flappyjay]

No clear system. And the players have picked this up. We seek inspiration, but we have no plan. City, Liverpool.. even Brentford, they play a certain way and their goals have a consistent theme, process to them. We don't. Nowhere near that. And that's on ETH. Not the Glazer's etc.

A few questions I have:

1. What is Casimero's role in getting us to play (a system)? He currently seems to have to shoulder the defensive midfield role on his own, and he doesn't contribute enough to get us playing (and he is good enough to do this...) I don't blame him btw (even though he looks awful right now)
2. What is AWB's role in getting us to play? Because he cannot play, you can see that. He's a limited footballer. Look at Trippier. Reece James. Roberston. Kyle Walker, Chilwell and compare.
3. What is Luke Shaw's role in getting us to play? He has ability on the ball, but is he a clear outlet for us (like Robertson etc, see above...)? If not, why not?
4. What is Antony's role? Goals? Pace? Crosses? Shots? I have no idea. None.
5. What is Mason Mount's role going to be? (and I think he is a very good player btw..)
6. What is Bruno's role? This is key, because it seems, he cannot be dropped, and therefore, his inclusion informs the rest of the XI.
7. What is Eriksen's role. Deep lying ball-player (that's what I would like..) because he gets us to play. But he lacks mobility, and really needs two defensive players (midfielders) around him. Which in turn, means Bruno cannot play (in midfield). So that's complicated.

I could go on, regarding playing out from the back, because we seem unsure... I wouldn't want the ball being played to AWB for example, no way.

All of this is ETH. His job, his coaching staffm is to determine what is expected of players.

Every City player knows what is expected of them. Same with Liverpool. Brighton. Villa. Brentford. West Ham, probably other teams. But look at us?

It's poor, and ETH has to resolve this, because if he doesn't he will have problems. And I fully back him btw, but he has to show more tactical management and acumen. It's all so unclear right now.

I could be wrong but I swear we have this man running box to box more than he ever did in his young years at Madrid. I wonder if he is a "holding midfielder " in our current system. There is so much space that needs covering and we leave him so much for him to cover. Even with prime Kante you still wouldn't want him covering so much on his own.

 

[Krakenzero]

IMO the main reasons for this current moment are:

1) A huge performance drop from your 3-4 most important players (Casemiro, Bruno, Rashford, maybe Martinez) compared to last season.

2) Terrible luck with injuries (Varane, Martinez, Lindelof, Shaw, Mount, Mainoo, Hojlund all injured at some point of the first four games) and players not available due to either late signings (Amrabat, Reguilon) or some other let's say "miscellaneous" reasons (MG, Sancho, Antony).

Those two combined haven't allowed the squad to have any consistency throughout the start of the season. The latter will eventually sort itself out given enough time, the former is more concerning as United trust these players to be at their best versions in order to achieve this seasons main goals (silverware, top 4, deep run in the UCL).

Having said that, there's a huge problem with a team if the coach says they want to be the best transitions team in the world and then they concede those first two goals against Brighton due to being just really bad at it. And then the third one comes from some players basically giving up. That screams A) a problem in the midfield and B) leadership and mentality issues.

 

[Desert Eagle]

I think there are two main issues that prevent us from playing like a well drilled team.

Firstly we have a number of players who are thick. The decision making kills so many promising opportunities. This can't be coached. They're simply stupid.

Secondly there are too many players with the wrong attitude or mentality. Whether it's Rashford thinking he's a superstar and man one team, or Sancho who is weak as piss and not willing to fight, it's prohibiting us from being a team.

I think the root cause of the second point is money. We pay far too much far too soon. The wages most of this lot are earning should've been reserved until they'd won the league.

We won't get close to playing the way Ten Hag (or any other manager) envisages until we have a group of players ready to play for each other and give 100%, even when things aren't going their way.

This is it in a nutshell.

 

[Rozay]

You literally grouped SAF and Ole and Mou together, not me. There were many iterations of SAF teams but they played very differently. That shouldn’t need to be explained on as United forum.

If you had read what I wrote I actually said Ole and Mou were similar and ETH actually just reverted to that basic style of football when he saw how bad were versus Brentford and Brighton. There was also very little point playing out from the back with DDG in goal, I assume you understand why that would be, so this season is the first time the concerted effort to do it is happening.

This is not rocket science.

And if you read what I wrote, you would see that I have disputed the similarities between Ole and Mourinho, to the point where I used SAF, another manager who was NOT comparable to highlight the ridiculousness of grouping them based on seeming structural similarities in their team. The same way Ole and Jose apparently relied upon directness over build up, I don’t recall us being renowned for patient build up under Fergie either. Yet comparing them would be silly.

I am not here arguing for any playing out of the back, I couldn’t care less. Passing at the back is a useless principle if you don’t believe in passing once it gets into midfield or further forward.

 

[RedStarUnited]

I think there are two main issues that prevent us from playing like a well drilled team.

Firstly we have a number of players who are thick. The decision making kills so many promising opportunities. This can't be coached. They're simply stupid.

Secondly there are too many players with the wrong attitude or mentality. Whether it's Rashford thinking he's a superstar and man one team, or Sancho who is weak as piss and not willing to fight, it's prohibiting us from being a team.

I think the root cause of the second point is money. We pay far too much far too soon. The wages most of this lot are earning should've been reserved until they'd won the league.

We won't get close to playing the way Ten Hag (or any other manager) envisages until we have a group of players ready to play for each other and give 100%, even when things aren't going their way.

I agree our players are thick but I disagree with this. City score so many of the same type of goal all the time. I think there are certain drills they do in training and players execute them on the pitch without thinking.

Our players seem to be making it up on the spot all the time.

 

[tomaldinho1]

And if you read what I wrote, you would see that I have disputed the similarities between Ole and Mourinho, to the point where I used SAF, another manager who was NOT comparable to highlight the ridiculousness of grouping them based on seeming structural similarities in their team. The same way Ole and Jose apparently relied upon directness over build up, I don’t recall us being renowned for patient build up under Fergie either. Yet comparing them would be silly.

I am not here arguing for any playing out of the back, I couldn’t care less. Passing at the back is a useless principle if you don’t believe in passing once it gets into midfield or further forward.

Which manager ‘doesn’t believe in passing it once it gets into midfield’ that makes zero sense.

 

[Rozay]

Which manager ‘doesn’t believe in passing it once it gets into midfield’ that makes zero sense.

Ten Hag.

His principles show great emphasis on how his back 5 pass the ball, and far less on how those in front of them do. This is evidenced by his own words regarding transition, the selection and purchasing of players who do not value keeping the ball, and by watching Manchester United play football.

 

[tomaldinho1]

Ten Hag.

His principles show great emphasis on how his back 5 pass the ball, and far less on how those in front of them do. This is evidenced by his own words regarding transition, the selection and purchasing of players who do not value keeping the ball, and by watching Manchester United play football.

He said we want to be the best in transition, he didn’t say I don’t believe in passing once the ball leaves the defence for goodness sakes.

A reasonable take would be that he has signed Eriksen and Antony who directly disprove what your saying as will Amrabat if you look at how he played previously. Casemiro is wasteful, that I agree with and the way we play has been disappointing for me. I go back to what I said before, genuine change takes time, it also might not be successful but we didn’t try and change a whole lot last year. We can keep hiring managers every few years who play direct counter attacking football and if we keep spending £150-£200m a window we’ll stay around the CL/EL spots.

 

[Cnaiür urs Skiötha]

We had somewhat sorted out the back 5/6 last season but Onana and injuries brought the stability down. Nothing against Onana as I have not seen enough of him but it changed the way we play and not in a way that fits the players we got.
Also Casemiro looks very rusty - probably Real saw the signs and took the chance to cash in to start rebuilding their midfield. Casemiro had a nice first season bounce being excited about a new adventure in a new league and showed his class but right now he would not make it into any of the top teams.
Our midfield is a mess. Bruno tries hard and can be found everywhere on the pitch, fighting to get the ball - but then keeps losing it instead of keep circulating it until everybody is in a good position to start an attack. This stupid long passes should be banned. With all du respect when Eriksen is your best midfielder in 2023 you are doomed.
And in the final third we have no creativity and not enough clever movement. Other teams are able to use the whole place to create something but we either try 1:1, stupid shots or some 1-2s in tight areas which sometimes work but most of the time not.

I just hope that Hojlund, Mount and Amrabat, maybe even Reguilon and some of the youngsters bring fresh air and change the way we play. Also ten Hag needs to stop messing around and bench the likes of Rashford, Bruno and Casemiro.

 

[Cassidy]

We had somewhat sorted out the back 5/6 last season but Onana and injuries brought the stability down. Nothing against Onana as I have not seen enough of him but it changed the way we play and not in a way that fits the players we got.
Also Casemiro looks very rusty - probably Real saw the signs and took the chance to cash in to start rebuilding their midfield. Casemiro had a nice first season bounce being excited about a new adventure in a new league and showed his class but right now he would not make it into any of the top teams.
Our midfield is a mess. Bruno tries hard and can be found everywhere on the pitch, fighting to get the ball - but then keeps losing it instead of keep circulating it until everybody is in a good position to start an attack. This stupid long passes should be banned. With all du respect when Eriksen is your best midfielder in 2023 you are doomed.
And in the final third we have no creativity and not enough clever movement. Other teams are able to use the whole place to create something but we either try 1:1, stupid shots or some 1-2s in tight areas which sometimes work but most of the time not.

I just hope that Hojlund, Mount and Amrabat, maybe even Reguilon and some of the youngsters bring fresh air and change the way we play. Also ten Hag needs to stop messing around and bench the likes of Rashford, Bruno and Casemiro.

What makes you come to the conclusion that Onana has brought instability to the back line?
And how exactly has he changed the way we play which does not fit with the players we got?

 

[RedDevil@84]

Let's get this straight, we've changed 6-7 managers and our style of play frankly hasn't changed. Brighton outplayed us and it was very evident that only Bruno wanted to press everywhere and in the end he was part of the defense pairing.

What's the flaw in our gameplay? Why aren't we effective in breaking teams? Why can't we press or score goals like all the teams do? What's the fundamental issue?

Please do not say Glazers! I understand where you're coming from but frankly we've overplayed that card. I think we have bigger issues with mentality.

Glazers, Glazers and Glazers!!!!! We have not overplayed that card. The reason why we don't have a defined style of play, ideology, proper DoF and footballing structure is down to the Glazers. They are interested in people who will get them more money and not the people who will run a football club.
That results in this manager musical chairs. That results in us not knowing what style to play, what players to get, what salaries we give to the players, what kind of players come from the academy and a hundred other things.
We went from Moyes to LVG to Jose to Ole to ETH because of this. We really have no clue what to do. Let us take example of Jose. Everyone knew what you get with Jose from defensive football to the chaos. But still we went ahead with him and asked him to play risky attacking football which was called "the Man Utd way". The result was football that was neither here nor there. We finished a far second somehow and for some strange reason, the club stopped supporting Jose over the summer. And then predictably, the Jose chaos ensued.

With players spilling over from one manager style to others, we have players who can't do things new manager wants. Add to that we don't have a footballing DoF, which means we are relying on manager to scout and select players which leads to managers like ETH just falling back to their ex-players or picking random players. There is no filter and no one to say that a player is not the kind we want. Our squad is full of different type of players. They don't belong to one type of football. And there are many average level of players.

Everything does go back to the Glazers unfortunately and until they are gone and new owners are interested in the football, we will continue to have these kind of problems.

The pressure on Man Utd is ridiculous. The papers are waiting to tear apart the club. United news keep the papers ticking. And the media likes to stick it in every time we falter. This results in fans demanding any manager to get the results now. Ideally, ETH is in his second season, but many fans are already thinking he is not as good as we thought a year back. When you are a United manager, you don't get 3 seasons to stamp your style of play or make it work. It has to be now. Add to it that years of rot has caused us to lose out on FFP. Our negotiation team sucks and we struggle to keep our transfer amounts and salaries down. Almost everyone gets a silly salary in the team. Everyone is a big signing. Which means we do not have the money to throw around. Which also means we get these articles comparing our transfer amounts to everyone else.

 

[Cnaiür urs Skiötha]

What makes you come to the conclusion that Onana has brought instability to the back line?
And how exactly has he changed the way we play which does not fit with the players we got?

Our defenders seem to be a bit more insecure about what to do with the ball and seem to feel the need to use Onana like an additional outfield player. So they give the ball to him more often than they did to de Gea so that he is the one making the passes forward - something that does not always work. We got ourselves into pressure at times because of that.
Like as if they get told "we have now that new fella in goal so we need to play through the press in an elegant way"...
But the main factor is of course the decline of Casemiro and Martinez as well as the injuries.

 

[2 man midfield]

It’s really fecking annoying that we can’t seem to ever have a distinct style of play. Other teams get taken over and within a couple of months their new identity is there for all to see - Conte had Chelsea moonwalking to 93 points and a league title in his first year. Brighton were being managed by Chris Hughton not long ago, now they’re known for playing trendy football. Even now Tottenham appear to be much better in possession under Postecoglu.

All I can think is that we’re so badly run that it’s an issue that transcends the manager. We need to allow him to see the job through, because it’s clear that chopping and changing don’t work.

 

[Cassidy]

Our defenders seem to be a bit more insecure about what to do with the ball and seem to feel the need to use Onana like an additional outfield player. So they give the ball to him more often than they did to de Gea so that he is the one making the passes forward - something that does not always work. We got ourselves into pressure at times because of that.
Like as if they get told "we have now that new fella in goal so we need to play through the press in an elegant way"...
But the main factor is of course the decline of Casemiro and Martinez as well as the injuries.

I don't see much difference between the way we play out with DDG vs Onana except for the fact we, as a team, look a lot more comfortable with the ball at the back.
It seems maybe you don't remember that last season we did it a lot, but at times DDG kept making mistakes.

Our defenders are used to playing this way because its the way we played last season, if they don't have an option to play through, they will go back to the keeper.
Last season what we used to do in this situation was either concede possession and a goal, or DDG would kick it long and concede possession.

 

[Cassidy]

It’s really fecking annoying that we can’t seem to ever have a distinct style of play. Other teams get taken over and within a couple of months their new identity is there for all to see - Conte had Chelsea moonwalking to 93 points and a league title in his first year. Brighton were being managed by Chris Hughton not long ago, now they’re known for playing trendy football. Even now Tottenham appear to be much better in possession under Postecoglu.

All I can think is that we’re so badly run that it’s an issue that transcends the manager. We need to allow him to see the job through, because it’s clear that chopping and changing don’t work.

Fact is we have one by our fans don't like it

 

[Resch]

We can not press, because we do not press enough as a team & we do not work enough, a combination of poor tactics and low work rate. Too often our attackers start to press, but our MF and D do not support. So our opponents have enough time and space to operate. 2 or 3 simple passes are enough to build up a dangerous attack. Last Saturday showed it perfectly, 3 players pressed the left defender, some simple passes and our defence was exposed, goal.
This weak pressing tactics cause tired attackers, bcause they run for nothing far too often, cause tired MFs, because they have to cover too much space, and tired defenders, because they have to defend 1vs1 too much, etc. "Gegenpressing" is non existing, our opponents have time to secure the ball, controll the situation. So as a team we react, instead of acting, we open up spaces instead of tighting them.

 

[Artimities]

This is going to come off as foolish to some maybe most, but I think we have not done enough as a collective group to turn our luck around. From a talent perspective, United are just as good if not better than the rest of the upper echelon teams in the PL.
A combination of time, having the correct players, not having and distractions in the dressing room like the Greenwood, Antony, Sancho and Harry issues and mentality as well as solving this silly ass ownership game the Glazers are playing....
That is a lot to try and stay calm and carry on....
I dont see top 4 this year, but I dont think ETH out is the answer. He needs time and he needs a season without bullshit. Last year it was Ronaldo and this year its a poor transfer period with a team that still has yet to play together. We look tired, and unsure... both could be fixed with wins and time.

Like I said in another post, I do think we will play better in the CL.
I also wouldnt be a shocked one bit if we win Wednesday.

 

[JuriM]

 

[Cnaiür urs Skiötha]

I don't see much difference between the way we play out with DDG vs Onana except for the fact we, as a team, look a lot more comfortable with the ball at the back.
It seems maybe you don't remember that last season we did it a lot, but at times DDG kept making mistakes.

Our defenders are used to playing this way because its the way we played last season, if they don't have an option to play through, they will go back to the keeper.
Last season what we used to do in this situation was either concede possession and a goal, or DDG would kick it long and concede possession.

From what I saw Onana often plays the ball to one of our defenders who has not a lot of space and time but is from Onana's point of view the best option to play around the first wave of pressing. This is something our defenders are not used to and so the get nervous and make either a bad decision or play it back.
My main problem with Onana right now is that we spend quite a significant amount of money on him but he does not help us with our main issue - which is keeping control, winning the midfield battle and creating in the final third.
The same goes for Hojlund. Upgrades on keeper and striker might be nice but not as long as our overall football is just not good enough.
I hope that Mount and Amrabat can help in that regard.

 

[TheRedDevil'sAdvocate]

It’s really fecking annoying that we can’t seem to ever have a distinct style of play. Other teams get taken over and within a couple of months their new identity is there for all to see - Conte had Chelsea moonwalking to 93 points and a league title in his first year. Brighton were being managed by Chris Hughton not long ago, now they’re known for playing trendy football. Even now Tottenham appear to be much better in possession under Postecoglu.

All I can think is that we’re so badly run that it’s an issue that transcends the manager. We need to allow him to see the job through, because it’s clear that chopping and changing don’t work.

I'm with you, but we need to see the distinction between the three. Conte didn't have Chelsea moonwalk anything. They were over performing in every single statistic the human mind has ever conceived, and they also had the perfect "get out of jail" card in Hazard. There was another team in 2016-17 that topped all the statistics that try to measure probability in football, but seriously underperformed in the seasonal charts. Enter 2017-18, everything went as it should have gone and Conte eventually was replaced at the end of the season. I'm saying this because, if something similar happens at United, we'll probably give the manager a 10-year contract.

Brighton has been discussed to death lately, i don't have anything to add besides the fact that they had (and still have) plenty of bad days at the office, too, which don't draw much attention because of the size of the club. Looking now at the final result and ask why can't we have that should also be countered with the question: do we have the stomach for that?

Postecoglu seems like a fine gent. Due to his family's origins, i tend to have a sweet spot for him and i want him to do well. But he will not be the first or the last coach who started brightly but slowly faded out once the rest of the league adapted to his tactics. Our very own Solskajer should serve as an example.

 

[philippexyz]

We have problems in defense, we have problems in midfield, and, we also have problems in attack. All areas of the pitch are problematic.

Decline of Martinez and Casemiro. I feel like they should've/could've prevented all of the 3 goals we conceded against Brighton, but they didn't. Injuries to Varane, Shaw, Amrabat, Hojlund(until recently), Mainoo, Amad, Mount, Wan-Bissaka(newest one), Malacia...

We should've replaced Maguire this summer with someone more competent who could even maybe be long term partner for Lisandro(if he gets back to pre-injury form), but he was too greedy and it failed. You can't rely on Varane, he's too injury prone. All of our fullbacks(except Dalot) "decided" to get injured at basically the same time, which is mind blowing. Lindelof is a "meh" defender, should be a 4th choice CB at best(probably 5th).

Our midfield has no ball retention ability, whatsoever. They treat the ball like a hot potato(I've said it many times, and I will continue to do that as long as I'm a member of this forum). We desperately needed a press resistance ball carrier, alternative to Frenkie de Jong(Kone, Thuram, Nunes, Gravenberch...) and we got an underwhelming attacking midfielder in Mason Mount, which I don't really understand why. Casemiro doesn't look good so far this season. His legs might be gone, which is not surprising, given his age. Short term thinking from our idiotic recruitment department. Might have to cash in on him and send him to Saudi next summer(if he accepts, which he might not). Similar with Varane.

Mount and Eriksen can't play deeper in a box to box 8 role - don't have combination of physicality and technicality(dribbling, passing) for that. I think Bruno should be phased out of the team - I'm a supporter of the famous locked thread "We'll never win the league win Bruno Fernandes in our team". He has no ball carrying/retention ability and loses the ball way too much, even though he is also the main creator in the team. You can't control games with him in the squad(against better teams at least). He's a player for a counterattacking, underdog, midtable team where he would be the main star with his risky, Hollywood passes on the counterattack. Kevin de Bruyne and Odegaard are superior players, probably even Maddison. I would rather have all of them than Bruno.

Conclusion, need more youth/legs/grit in the midfield and more press resistance, ball carrying, ball retention ability.

About the attack, we have only 1 striker at the club(Hojlund) who is very young, talented and just started playing recently, something like 90 minutes in total. I don't consider Martial as a professional footballer anymore, after his contract ends in the summer he's done(at the top level at least). Turkey, MLS, Saudi Arabia...or retirement.

Our two main right wingers are unavailable. One is fighting domestic abuse allegations in Brazil and the other is a lazy slacker who is waging war against the manager and is exiled from the first team squad - "wonderful". Both of them are also pretty underwhelming when they do play and they cost a fortune. Amad is injured, ETH doesn't trust/rate Pellistri for some reason, meaning we basically don't have any right winger available to start at the moment.

Rashford is not in form, got his new contract, too selfish and is strolling nonchalantly on the pitch like a model - not pressing, which creates more problems off the ball. If his work rate doesn't improve, he should probably be benched or sold, even though he's a local lad with connections to Manchester. Rashford is not as good as he thinks he is - he's not Mbappe. He needs to be "reminded" of that. Garnacho is developing, but still too young to start and make a serious impact, needs more progress and development.

 

[Rozay]

He said we want to be the best in transition, he didn’t say I don’t believe in passing once the ball leaves the defence for goodness sakes.

A reasonable take would be that he has signed Eriksen and Antony who directly disprove what your saying as will Amrabat if you look at how he played previously. Casemiro is wasteful, that I agree with and the way we play has been disappointing for me. I go back to what I said before, genuine change takes time, it also might not be successful but we didn’t try and change a whole lot last year. We can keep hiring managers every few years who play direct counter attacking football and if we keep spending £150-£200m a window we’ll stay around the CL/EL spots.

That wouldn’t be a ‘reasonable take’, it would be a stretch, given that Amrabat is a back up and Eriksen is not in his first choice midfield. He signed Mason Mount to replace him. His first choice midfield is Casemiro, Mount and Fernandes - which even you can probably see equals to no control and poor possession figures. So I repeat what I said regarding him placing great emphasis on passing from his back 5, but not in front. Changed his goalkeeper, brought in a 5’9 centre half, who is very comfortable on the ball, refuses to play right footers on the left side of central defence due to passing angles.

And then puts Casemiro, Mount and Bruno in front of them.

In your own words, you are similarly disappointed in how we are playing, and have acknowledged that relying on this direct, counter attacking football will not win us trophies, but have seemingly objected to everything I’ve said, to the point of calling me unreasonable because I do not rate the football and lack of passing in Ten Hag’s game.

I accept that change takes time. It also doesn’t happen in secret, the journey is witnessed. And we are not on a journey towards controlling games better. You also don’t build a midfield of Casemiro, Mount and Bruno along the way if that is indeed your intention, so I can only assume it is not. You can spot a manager who places an emphasis on keeping the ball within a couple of games. That’s all it takes for you to see it with Ange, O’Niell and others. You would like to think that you can DEFINITELY see it once they’ve spent 400m, as it would inform their choices. I don’t think that’s what we’ve seen with Ten Hag, and I don’t think it’s unreasonable for to say that there’s little evidence of him valuing possession.

If it were a core principle, he’d have shopped McTominay immediately last summer. Solskjaer didn’t even have the job permanently yet and was mid-season yet the first thing he did when he came back to Old Trafford was ensure Fellaini never played for us again. It was expected too, as there had been a lot of whispers from our ex-players that MF was ‘never a United player’. Over more time, I’d have expected him to do the same with Bruno. Yet the Fernandes brigade were instead celebrating victory of an ‘I told you so’ moment with ‘clearly Ten Hag disagrees with you, he’s made him his captain and always plays him. All of you who thought he wouldn’t fancy him are deluded’. So we have to call it as we see it. His principles are not Ajax principles, they are far closer to the same outdated stuff we’ve had years of, but not even the best version of it IMO.

 

[TMDaines]

Re: demands on certain positions at United:

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

 

[adexkola]

We don't really value possession.

LVG had his issues, but it's telling that many saw his regime as something that needed to be cast out rather than built on.

You can't be a great side today without being great in possession against a settled defense. Ok maybe you can, but it is way more difficult. The low hanging fruit of counters and fast transitions are harder to come by season in season out.

And no it doesn't mean you have to play like Pep or LVG.

 

[tomaldinho1]

That wouldn’t be a ‘reasonable take’, it would be a stretch, given that Amrabat is a back up and Eriksen is not in his first choice midfield. He signed Mason Mount to replace him. His first choice midfield is Casemiro, Mount and Fernandes - which even you can probably see equals to no control and poor possession figures. So I repeat what I said regarding him placing great emphasis on passing from his back 5, but not in front. Changed his goalkeeper, brought in a 5’9 centre half, who is very comfortable on the ball, refuses to play right footers on the left side of central defence due to passing angles.

And then puts Casemiro, Mount and Bruno in front of them.

In your own words, you are similarly disappointed in how we are playing, and have acknowledged that relying on this direct, counter attacking football will not win us trophies, but have seemingly objected to everything I’ve said, to the point of calling me unreasonable because I do not rate the football and lack of passing in Ten Hag’s game.

I accept that change takes time. It also doesn’t happen in secret, the journey is witnessed. And we are not on a journey towards controlling games better. You also don’t build a midfield of Casemiro, Mount and Bruno along the way if that is indeed your intention, so I can only assume it is not. You can spot a manager who places an emphasis on keeping the ball within a couple of games. That’s all it takes for you to see it with Ange, O’Niell and others. You would like to think that you can DEFINITELY see it once they’ve spent 400m, as it would inform their choices. I don’t think that’s what we’ve seen with Ten Hag, and I don’t think it’s unreasonable for to say that there’s little evidence of him valuing possession.

If it were a core principle, he’d have shopped McTominay immediately last summer. Solskjaer didn’t even have the job permanently yet and was mid-season yet the first thing he did when he came back to Old Trafford was ensure Fellaini never played for us again. It was expected too, as there had been a lot of whispers from our ex-players that MF was ‘never a United player’. Over more time, I’d have expected him to do the same with Bruno. Yet the Fernandes brigade were instead celebrating victory of an ‘I told you so’ moment with ‘clearly Ten Hag disagrees with you, he’s made him his captain and always plays him. All of you who thought he wouldn’t fancy him are deluded’. So we have to call it as we see it. His principles are not Ajax principles, they are far closer to the same outdated stuff we’ve had years of, but not even the best version of it IMO.

I really don’t get how you see football. Yes, he bought Mount but surely you see Mount is a player that has a very high technical level, he’s not someone to run after long punts forwards. You are completely right to suggest the experiment to transition Mount to an 8 is not going well but it shows a desire to move away from the deeper lying Cm pair and towards the sole DM setup. I myself have big doubts about that but I understand and like the idea of where the team would get to IF it was successful. This move to the inverted midfield triangle is imperative for offensive possession based football.

Case wasn’t a planned signing given the De Jong chase but we were so desperate for someone who could play DM, he was great if still wasteful with the ball last year. Eriksen was a free and knows possession football, his issue is post injury he’s been worse although he’s been better since this season began. Really it was a quick fix and now we’re seeing more of a long term plan for example Amrabat - Mount - Bruno strikes me as having more balance than Case - Mount - Bruno but I’m not massively clued up on Amarabat so could be wrong. I think we agree on Bruno so can leave him be.

You reference Ange but have you watched any of Spurs games? Yes they are trying pass way more but they’ve been so lucky, they will struggle to finish above even is this year.

ETH came last season and basically proved if you want to spend money and play direct football he’s just as good as people who came before (Top four finish plus a minor trophy, he’s the only manager post SAF to do that you know, not that I rate the league cup that highly but in a first season he’s surpassed/equalled everyone really even though the bar is low).

We want the same thing but I feel like you say you have patience yet we’re 5 games in and the midfield experiment stopped after 2 games. Plus we have injuries and a load of drama going on, I expect a bit better to be honest. I’m not in the camp of blindly support the manager but more so in let’s wait at least a couple of months to see how he reacts and adapts. Enough was shown last season to warrant at least a modicum of trust.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

This is not really true.

That's grade A nonsense
You've literally repeated what I stated about LVG

LVG was all about possession and we got quite good but often boring as hell.

whilst calling it a lie.....be serious please

 

[kaku06]

Just by watching the game you could tell Brighton made far more passes than us. We are so dated and basic, it’s almost becoming embarrassing at the top level. Brighton let the ball move, all of our progression requires either having to run 30 yards with the ball, or chase 30 yards to get it. We cannot move the ball up and down or around the pitch by simply passing it. We cannot pass the ball one touch. We’re just some 90s side hanging on to the past.

The sad thing is I thought that finally, getting an Ajax manager would be the start of our modernisation, but this guy has betrayed all Ajax principles from what I can see.

At the moment, any team that loses to us must be a very poor team. Basic organisation and tactics will outsmart us, so if we win playing a game with little complexity just because Rashford ‘does something’ then you can’t be much.

If only I could give this post a like. Completely agree especially the bolded bit. Well said.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

We don't value possession play enough. We are incapable of progressing play via controlled passing and pinning a team back at the moment.

I really thought ETH would rectify it more-so this season, because there were a few signs of this last season in certain games, but since that cup final, we've gone backwards back to step 1 again. The injuries and off-field drama don't help, but he's to got start extracting better performances/results from the team. If we still look this way 6 months down the road, I think ETH has ultimately failed and would have disappointed many of us.

I've seen some people label ETH as a purist(heavily disagree with this too), but I actually think he was too pragmatic last season. He should have embedded his ideas more into the side instead of shifting gear to get results.

Wanting to be the best transition team is fine, but we have to be as competent in possession too. People cited Liverpool being an excellent transition team, but forget they were genuinely excellent in possession too. They kept more possession vs every team bar City. Even against City, they were the only side for a while who went toe-to-toe with them.

 

[In Rainbows]

From what I saw Onana often plays the ball to one of our defenders who has not a lot of space and time but is from Onana's point of view the best option to play around the first wave of pressing. This is something our defenders are not used to and so the get nervous and make either a bad decision or play it back.
My main problem with Onana right now is that we spend quite a significant amount of money on him but he does not help us with our main issue - which is keeping control, winning the midfield battle and creating in the final third.
The same goes for Hojlund. Upgrades on keeper and striker might be nice but not as long as our overall football is just not good enough.
I hope that Mount and Amrabat can help in that regard.

I know what you're talking about with regards to our defenders getting nervous, but I think that is solely down to Lindelof not being that comfortable on the ball. There was an instance where Lindelof had space behind him, and he panicked so passed the ball to Onana, who had someone pressing him instantly so had to hoof it in that play. That is a Lindelof problem. Martinez doesn't look confused when passing it out from the back. The problem comes from Varane and Shaw being out with injury. I still feel Varane is a little more confident than Lindelof even if Varane isn't Martinez's level. Shaw is of course also comfortable with the ball.

So I don't think Onana has brought instability. If anything, what has brought instability is the constant rotation of players in defense because of injuries hitting 3-4 of our defenders in just these 5 matches.

The other problem is our midfield just isn't good enough on the ball to match the level of defense's ability to play out from the back. The defenders have the ball and the midfield isn't good enough or mobile enough to turn with the ball (Eriksen, Casemiro, McTominay, Bruno). In Eriksen's case, he has the skill to do it, but isn't fast enough to constantly do it in instances that require a little more dribbling. So they either have to pass it back from panicking, don't have the vision to find a player, or don't have the brain/style to constantly demand the ball and get the ball forward intelligently like Kroos/Modric/Scholes/Xavi did. It's obvious we really have needed this type of player in the side the last 11 years, even a poor man's version of that. Let alone have 2 players that you can say are technically brilliant and mobile enough to hand the ball over to.

From what I've seen of Ten Hag's signings, he hasn't valued that trait enough even with the Eriksen and Amrabat signings. Amrabat was too late of a signing when we should have that as a priority prior to preseason. Mount has the technical ability, but he has the same problem as Pogba in some sense that he's not the type of player that will gravitate towards the ball to get United ticking every opportunity he has. He likes to venture forward too often like Pogba did, who also had really great technical ability. That leaves the middle exposed, and their style of midfield play puts more pressure on the midfield partner to perform the duty of distributing the ball. We obviously did not have that player prior to Mount's signing.

Another problem is that Ten Hag likes to roll back his instructions. We can see that with Onana's ability to venture forward dwindling after 2-3 matches. That has to be by instruction. I'm hoping he is stubborn to stick with his original plan otherwise you've reduced Onana's influence on the ball somewhat. I can accept mistakes if the type of football your original plan resembles what's successful in Europe's best teams right now. That way we can see that we're working towards achieving what brings success, but if it's another thing, then what is the point in a more pragmatic football that won't have us winning the league?

 

[tenpoless]

1. When we play we can lose
2. When we play we can not score goals
3. When we play we can concede goals

 

[tarc]

Do Man Utd fans care about the way your team play? I think most only care about the result not the style.

At late years of SAF's rein, his style was not pleasing to watch. But no matter, Man Utd fans enjoy the game because you are winning. Later when debating whom to replace Mourinho, a lot fans want Conte or Simeone! Clearly Style is of little concern to many Man Utd fans.

 

[Ronaldo's Love Child]

The main problem is the idiotic owners who currently have the club in Limbo. I would not like to work there at the moment. There must be incredible uncertainty and low morale around the whole of the club.

I'm getting tired of this narrative. Yes-the Glazers need to go but no, they are not responsible for us playing so crap.

Our players are not like a Stephen or Tracey who work in an office, get paid £ 25k a year and are worried as the company might or might not be taken over. United players are on £ 100k a week and more.

It is a privilege for these men to make a very good income from something they love to do-not many of us could say that. The least they could do is put a shift in.

The Glazers are not responsible for Bruno jogging back for one of Brighton's goals or Mctominay losing his man. Constantly finding an excuse just takes the heat away from the players and coaches.

 

[RedStarUnited]

From reddit

United are 2nd lowest crossing team in the league.

Rashford made 24 crosses the entire season. Antony made 32.

Compare that to:

Saka - 172
Martinelli - 113

Good luck to Hojlund.

 

[Red in STL]

From reddit

United are 2nd lowest crossing team in the league.

Rashford made 24 crosses the entire season. Antony made 32.

Compare that to:

Saka - 172
Martinelli - 113

Good luck to Hojlund.

Last season we didn't have a CF, a bit pointless crossing to give the opposition possession when there isn't a team mate there

This season we have a CF, those numbers will rise dramatically

 

[NoLogo]

From reddit

United are 2nd lowest crossing team in the league.

Rashford made 24 crosses the entire season. Antony made 32.

Compare that to:

Saka - 172
Martinelli - 113

Good luck to Hojlund.

This is really a problem, we have 0 creativity from wide areas, I was hoping Sancho and Antony would actually improve this, but they were both duds so far. We essentially have the same problem still, Bruno is the only creative source in the team.

 

[NoLogo]

Essentially the problems are twofold, our press isn't working, and we lose the numbers game in midfield. Oh yeah, and we are also too slow to adjust to the opposition changing tactics.

 

[RedStarUnited]

Last season we didn't have a CF, a bit pointless crossing to give the opposition possession when there isn't a team mate there

This season we have a CF, those numbers will rise dramatically

Weghorst was a DM?

 

[sullydnl]

Essentially the problems are twofold, our press isn't working, and we lose the numbers game in midfield. Oh yeah, and we are also too slow to adjust to the opposition changing tactics.

The stats are interesting in that regard as although our PPDA (which measures pressing intensity) is average, we've won the ball more often in the opposition third than any other team in the league. So functionally something is still working with the press as we're getting the turnovers we want high up the pitch.