What will it take to sack moyes?
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) was joined by comedian Ali Woods to look back at the best and worst moments of a rollercoaster season with the annual United Hour Awards.
Has Ten Hag been sacked yet? We're not sure and we hope not, but it's looking more likely as the days pass.
Who should replace him and why is it taking so long to make a decision?
The only way Moyes should have become United manager is by working under Fergie as assistant for a few years, understanding what it is to take on this amazing club.
Interesting thought.
Spot on. And that's why his appointment was such a huge mistake. Because of the side he was taking over, we needed a big name with similar achievements to SAF or someone from within the club who the players already knew and vice versa. Anything else would never be good enough to maintain our levels of success.
Agree that Moyes never should have been appointed. I assume Fergie figured he was successful in moving from a smaller club (albeit with some bumps) and Moyes would follow suit.
In a weird way I think Fergie, because he grew with United over time as it became a worldwide brand, didn't realize the difference between being the manager for United and a mid-table club. I think that difference is now greater than when Fergie was appointed-and he just underestimated the degree to which Moyes would have to up his game.
Not sure about promoting from within as an alternative. That can be tricky too-as players may find it hard to adapt to a head coach that was an assistant with them. Oftentimes assistants play the good cop to the manager' bad cop routine-and then the assistant has to be the hard-ass.
That was the original plan when Moyes was at Preston.
Try assaulting a colleague and see what does for your career prospects.
I understand someone believing Moyes was not the right person. Why the fixation on Mourinho? If they didn't want a manager who has created problems between him and management in almost every club, alienated his own players, and assaulted personnel on an opposing team, then I totally understand their position ffs
I don't like his style either, some of the antics he's pulled over the years, the calculated eye gouge topping it all off, I also don't enjoy his football much either, but he's the closest thing to a "sure thing" as you can get in the game right now, I guess somewhere along the line we've concluded United above all are a business, kept floating high by success on the pitch, if one candidate is guaranteed to carry on where Sir Alex left off then you must overlook his flaws and do whats best for the longterm success of the business model.
I'm not entirely certain Bobby would be as particuarly fond of Sir Alex either had he been a different teams manager (such as Liverpools), with some of the obnoxious BS he's come out with over the years against referees, players, clubs and other managers etc.
I don't think he is as sure as people say he is. He is great at what he does, but winning isn't everything. It really isn't.
It's all Moyes' mentality. Whatever scoreline/result in that first tie, he would have managed to come up with something to not be aggressive, assertive and attacking. He's not really made to do that and I believe he has not the confidence (in himself particularly) yet failing to get help (for example, listening to what advice coming his way) for fear of being belittled (of his authority). This is not something the two Sirs have expected I believe. With his credential (never in contention with a trophy) he should have made use of the club's resources, experience of senior players and staff. Instead, he let Rene and Phelan go and I do believe he was at odds with Giggs (from what transpired in his team selection and at press conference what Giggs said)
I would agree, I want above all for United to get back to playing good football to watch week in, week out as the priority, not necessarily winning trophies, but even I can see the practicality of the situation, the club, the sponsors, the fan revenue.. everything is a house of cards built ontop of winning.
Is it? I will admit I don't know the minutae of our financial situation, but are we in a situation similar to Leeds back in 2002, when them not making the Champions League resulted in a firesale? If not, we will be fine. A prolonged drought will see us scale back accordingly. Of course no fan wants that, but I don't think it is as desperate as "win or utter collapse". Open to correction of course.
It's regularly brought up that SAF called for all the fans to back Moyes but what has been largely ignored is him saying "the challenge for these players is to win 3 in a row" so he obviously didn't feel he was leaving a side that needed drastic changes in the short term.
I don't know how Sir Alex thought Moyes could just pick up where he left off. Contrary to what some say, we have a team of interantional players used to winning things every season. What did Moyes bring to convince them he was the right man? All he ever did was to overachieve at a lesser club. Unfortunately the great man made a big mistake with this one.
And you're right. Sometimes assistants and those from within the club can be successful and sometimes not, cos they already know the ins and outs and the players. This can go either way. But a much better chance of succeeding compared to an outsider who has achieved much less than the team.
Posting in the noobs my main word for Moyes was "submissive". His submissive personality has permeated the entire club structure. We submit to our opponenets, their gameplan, and their style of play. If you were going to rate league managers based on testicle size demonstrated in matches, Moyes' bollocks would be mouse sized.
Ferguson's personality was dominant and excellent, and for the most part we (attempted to) dominate referees, opposition, the press, FA, etc.
I can't understand how anyone thinks the Glazers are just meekly waiting for the end of the season to come to sack Moyes.
Why on earth would they wait?!
There's no way we'll sack him in the summer. He'll get a big wodge, he's already had £64m remember, and at least the same again in the summer.
Come Christmas if we're not top 4, they might start getting itchy fingers.
Why on earth would they wait?!
There's no way we'll sack him in the summer. He'll get a big wodge, he's already had £64m remember, and at least the same again in the summer.
Come Christmas if we're not top 4, they might start getting itchy fingers.
I don't claim to know either, I just go by snipets of information like everyone else, like what our dashing new Exec-Director spoke of earlier this year, that our current financial model only affords one year outside the Chamions League etc, and potential sponsor loss and what not by some financial "experts" (arf!)
I guess there's different definitions of "fine", It doesn't have to be a Leeds situation to cause concern of the future... if we regressed into a Liverpool of the last 20 years due to loss of revenue for example, 'm sure many would not see that as still being "fine", but then everyones take on the word will differ massively... but the fact remains our success off the pitch was built by Sir Alexs winning juggernaut on it, without it life off from the pitch will never be the same either.
That's part of why I challenge Moyes to drop down his pants and show everyone that he has the balls to shake off that submissive mindset. However, I wouldn't put a single penny on that if the gossip I've read about his personal life have any truth.
I don't know when they will sack him.
But it is plausible to think there is a performance related clause specifying termination of the contract by mutual consent in the event of failure to achieve a top four finishing and with this an agreed severance that is much less than what would be the duration of the contract.
A contract will have termination clauses. Whether it contains a performance related clause within this section remains to be seen however I'm sure most would be surprised if such a lucrative contract did not.
You don't hear many clauses like this though. Managers seem to always get whopping payoffs.
I don't understand why people get paid off for failing at their jobs.
and rightly so, because bayern are pretty shit when they are feeling comfortable, they just knock the ball around, don't try to score.
a bit mean but have to agree with your analogy. What David James in his article in the Guardian titled:
David Moyes needs to shrug off his old Everton ways at Manchester United
Though they have the best away form in the Premier League, United don't perform at home because of the manager's mindset
said, among others:
It is undoubtedly true Moyes' own lack of confidence and submissive characteristic have been quickly transmitted to his players. If Keano were still around, there would be news Keano punching Moyes nose in HT team talk or during coaching sessions.
Plus Fergie's man management and skills in football are second to none.
what do you mean mate?
That's part of why I challenge Moyes to drop down his pants and show everyone that he has the balls to shake off that submissive mindset. However, I wouldn't put a single penny on that if the gossip I've read about his personal life have any truth.
Just some random stuff - rumors about how his personal life, but that also reflect that submissive nature in an extent. Nothing to take without a grain of salt really.
I think it is a bit more than that. I believe Sir Alex misjudged Moyes' thinking he would be more prepared to listen and learn from people around him since he had never won anything hence more humbled in taking on experienced players and staff's input, instead of maintaining using his own mediocre mentality and mindset discharging useful back room staff and exert his authority regardless. Doing what he did, Moyes was able to change (drag down) United to closer to Everton, rather than improving himself into a title winning/challenging manager managing the biggest club in the world. He had let so many people down on so many levels.
If there was no severance pay those that represent the managers (such as manager's associations) would be all over that. Manager's will have rights and I'm sure they would demand severance pay in compensation for early termination.
You don't hear it because in most cases managers are sack instead of waiting until their objectives are mathematically impossible (e.g. sacked around christmas). Also, a contract can be deemed unreasonable therefore to request a title victory as the performance related termination clause is unreasonable. Top four finish is far more reasonable and fair, most teams don't fail to achieve these most basic objectives.
An example is of a manager (Rafael Benitez) who grossly under-performed at liverpool and so agreed about £6m in severance pay despite having 4 years on his contract (worth £20m). He finished second and only 4 points off United, he was expected to win the title the following season before a 7th place finish.
I suspect there will be a number of books/articles that will document all of the things that went wrong after Fergie left. The dust jacket will read: How did one of the most successful managers of one of the biggest clubs in the world make such a big mistake?
I always take Fergie at his word that he thought Moyes was the best man for the job. Obviously that hasn't been the case, at least so far. There were some reports that Fergie expected his staff to remain-but who knows?
I'm sure that the story about this transition/succession will be pretty ugly once it all comes out. I bet it will be at a Shakespearian level given the egos involved and the extent of Moyes's failure.
I can't understand how people seem to think we wouldn't wait until the end of the season, why is that not a possibility.
Im not saying we will sack him but why would it surprise people that we would wait, we were hardly likely to sack him while we were still in with a chance of winning the Champions league, now we're out not much point sacking with 5 games to go is there.
Numerous examples of clubs waiting until the end of the season before sacking managers, Benitez & Dalglish were both sacked after the end of the season by two different sets of american owners at Liverpool, Villas american owner has also waited until the season was over to sack McLeish, jesus even Chelsea waited until after the last match of a season to sack Ancelotti.
Further afield even Real & Barca have waited until the season before sacking Pelligrini and Rijkaard respectively in recent years.
Most of those clubs hardly have a reputation of being patient with managers yet even they have waited until may/june to dismiss a manager, why not us?
So while none of us know if moyes will get the sack this summer, the fact they haven't sacked him yet should not be used as an indicator that they won't give him the deserved boot come may.
Spill! Spill! Spill!
You are right i doubt Ferguson believed then or now our squad needs a rebuild.
To be honest when i heard Ferguson say ''its your job to support your new manager'' i thought it made sense, we all knew Moyes might take a year or three to win the league well most of us anyway, as im sure Ferguson also suspected that would be the case, he was in my opinion just planting his support for moyes in every fans mind just incase we thought we would just continue winning league titles like SAF never left.
But i don't for one nano second believe Ferguson thought moyes could be this bad this soon with the balanced squad of champions he left him, the squad needed 2-4 players as it would do almost every year thats how SAF kept the squad fresh, moyes chose not to sign the players the squad needed apart from Fellaini who was injued for the best part of 4 months.
So if the squad was lacking in defence and midfield because of aging players that is down to moyes he was the manager last summer not Ferguson, he had the best part of 3 months to prepare to take over United yet acted like he got offered the job on the 31st of june.
I'm not convinced he'll be here in the summer since I seriously doubt the Glazers/Fergie thought bringing him in would mean having to fund wholesale squad changes to even compete with the top sides. While he'll never admit it publicly Fergie can't be too happy that people think he's left United with a weak/incapable side in need of such drastic changes.
I'm genuinely worried about this summer because we should really be cutting our losses on Fellaini but after Woodward claimed spending 27m on Fellaini "addressed the issue of needing a midfielder" I fear we'll stick with him rather than admit we made a mistake. Where would Liverpool be now had Rodgers been forced to continue with 35m man Andy Carroll and not been able to get Sturridge?
Overall I really have no confidence that the owners will OK the type of investment needed nor that those in charge of the footballing side of things are capable/ruthless enough to make the big decisions correctly. That said if we aren't in top 4 by Xmas next season the tide will turn and if we miss out on top 4 again SAF will have no way of stopping the Glazers from sacking him.
I'm genuinely worried about this summer because we should really be cutting our losses on Fellaini but after Woodward claimed spending 27m on Fellaini "addressed the issue of needing a midfielder" I fear we'll stick with him rather than admit we made a mistake. Where would Liverpool be now had Rodgers been forced to continue with 35m man Andy Carroll and not been able to get Sturridge?
Overall I really have no confidence that the owners will OK the type of investment needed nor that those in charge of the footballing side of things are capable/ruthless enough to make the big decisions correctly. That said if we aren't in top 4 by Xmas next season the tide will turn and if we miss out on top 4 again SAF will have no way of stopping the Glazers from sacking him.
Moyes could have spent a few hours reading the Caf and found out enough about what we needed in the summer window! Although in his defence I'm sure he like all United fans expected the United chief executive to be at a minimum competent at his job which wasn't the case. He didn't target the wrong players in Fabregas/Thiago/Coentrao/Khedira etc
Thiago claims he was never contacted by United, not once. (£17m)
Strootman surely would have chosen us (£15m)
De Rossi wanted United when he fell out with Roma but then made amends (start of July, we had a short window of (my guess) two weeks - £12m)
Moyes was made aware of the central midfield problems upon arrival (he said this), he could have pounced on De Rossi and Strootman who would have been highly probable instead of pursuing Fabregas. As it is, he valued Fellaini at about the combined value of Strootman and De Rossi so only time will tell if Fellaini can be as effective on his own as the combination of them in midfield.
I do accept Woodward made errors, although his dealing with Juan Mata was excellent in getting his father to be the intermediary and refusing to directly negotiate, even once, because Chelsea wanted Rooney so badly.
Moyes took the gamble, ironically for all the criticism of positivity he should have been a little more negative here and gone safety first. If anything, he had too much positivity, he was too ambitious in his pursuit of Fabregas.
I hope after his Fabregas failure, he will not target much lower profile players with the view of paying the premium rates associated with our club.
Fabregas was a wrong target and a waste of the valuable time in the transfer window. No way was he ever going to leave Barca, his hometown club, to play for Moyes. Its also wrong to blame Woodward when it was never going to happen.
He hasn't been playing that well recently, and the Barcelona fans seem tired of him. I was on a Barcelona forum the other night after their loss against Granada, and almost all of them said they'd be fine with selling him. Just a year late, eh.
Dave, Juan, and Cesc would be ultimate
.He hasn't been playing that well recently, and the Barcelona fans seem tired of him. I was on a Barcelona forum the other night after their loss against Granada, and almost all of them said they'd be fine with selling him. Just a year late, eh.
Dave, Juan, and Cesc would be ultimate
Talking about last season though, it was pointless chasing him cos he was never available. And if he was wouldn't Arsenal get first refusal and wouldn't they prefer him to sign him over Ozil? More likely he would go there than play for Moyes. And now without Champions League and a clueless manager?
Pretty much every major media outlet in England and Spain claimed we'd been in talks with Thiago, I'd believe them to be honest.
Strootman is a very good all rounder but he's not in the class of Fabregas or Thiago, he'd be an upgrade on what we have but not a world class CM like we need although he certainly represented better value than we ended up getting for Fellaini.
De Rossi has been rumoured to be on/off with a move from Roma for the past 5 seasons last summer was no different.
Moyes surely does not value Fellaini at the combined value of Strootman/De Rossi since the opening bid we made for Baines/Fellaini was only 28m and we ended up paying heavily over the odds for him out of desperation, Everton could play hard ball with us since we'd failed so publicly with Fabregas and the Rooney saga was rumbling on. You're also purely speculating Roma selling De Rossi for 12m. If that was the case a host of clubs would have been all over him.
Anyway my initial point was that Moyes didn't target the wrong calibre of player just that he and Woodward had no idea how to go about getting them. Woodward seems oblivious to some of the football politics than goes on and got led up the garden path with Fabregas.
Yeah, I'd guess Arsenal would be first on his agenda, if he were to move again. But Mata, De Gea and van Persie may give us little hope in such scenarios.
I agree it was a waste of time and United should have realised earlier that Fabregas was simply using the attention to strengthen his position at Barca for future talks but my initial point was that Moyes did target the calibre of player we needed.
I'm not sure I'd want Fabregas at this point, don't get me wrong hes still a good player but hes mostly been playing as one of the 3 upfront or an attacking role similar(ish) to a no.10 in a 3 in the middle, and his last few years at Arsenal saw him in an advanced spot also.
Would be a risk to try and plug him into a 2 man midfield at this point. No more square pegs for round holes me thinks.
Would be a risk to try and plug him into a 2 man midfield at this point. No more square pegs for round holes me thinks.