Where does Cristiano Ronaldo rank amongst the pantheon of greats?

[Peyroteo]

I think we have to also consider how he has performed for his national team, who have been incredibly average, but he guided and led (because he did, even though he came off in the final..) them to a Euro 2016 triumph.

It's more than that one trophy. He might not have had one tournament as good as some of the greats did, but in terms of longevity I don't think anyone besides Pele matches him. He's been a key player in the team since freaking 2004, we haven't missed one single tournament and have regularly overperformed with him being the main reason for it. If he stays fit he's still going to Qatar too.

Also, I understand people doubting he'd score the same amount of goals if his club situation was different but he's possibly going to end up with more goals for his country than anyone's ever scored for theirs and it's not like he's needed incredible creative players around him to do so.

 

[Revan]

I will say that I think both Ronaldo and Messi have seen their goal record inflated by modern circumstances. Major clubs being more financially dominant than ever allowing them to stockpile numerous great players, weakening the competition. Had lead to leagues with so much cannon fodder to run up goal totals. I watched Ronaldo 9 at Barca and Inter when he was at his peak and I don't think he could possibly have scored any more. Got 25 in Italy probably at his peak level, that would be a poor season for Messi/CR, but was a prolific season given the competition and defensive quality of the league.

These variations happen throughout the history of the game, making statistical comparisons much less valuable than they might seem.

He got outscored from the likes of Oliver Bierhoff (playing for the mighty Udine se) and co. There were so many Serie A strikers who were out scoring him. People are out of their mind if they don't think that RoMessi wouldn't have scored much more. Then there is also the longevity argument and the trophy argument.

 

[Pink Moon]

It's more than that one trophy. He might not have had one tournament as good as some of the greats did, but in terms of longevity I don't think anyone besides Pele matches him. He's been a key player in the team since freaking 2004, we haven't missed one single tournament and have regularly overperformed with him being the main reason for it. If he stays fit he's still going to Qatar too.

Also, I understand people doubting he'd score the same amount of goals if his club situation was different but he's possibly going to end up with more goals for his country than anyone's ever scored for theirs and it's not like he's needed incredible creative players around him to do so.

Have you seen Portugal's qualifying groups lol?

Ronaldo's been unreal for club and country but I don't think it's fair to use that to prop up that point.

And, if you wanna talk about Portugal, you know as well as I do that you'd be slaughtering a certain someone if his team was knocked out in the World Cup groups by America.

 

[Red Stone]

For me it was the exact opposite. 65 minutes in, Juve had been the better team, looked way more solid defensively, were controlling the midfield and they're 2-0 down. Isco was great in possession but the first goal aside he didn't add anything offensively, even for that goal did he really do anything special? He just put the ball in the box and then it's Ronaldo's and Benzema's movement that makes the difference, same for the second goal. Put a Maradona, Messi, Cruyff, Zidane, etc. there instead of Ronaldo and I geniunely don't think they even win that game nevermind by the margin they did. The way he impacts the game is very different from the way those players do but I think in games like yesterday it showed why it can be just or even more effective.

Absolutely, and I feel like he discredits Ronaldo's work for the second goal. It's him that forces the error from Buffon and Chiellini and he would have assisted a goal if not for a great save from Buffon. Real manage to keep the pressure and put in a cross, but even then Ronaldo is the only player on the pitch (and arguably in the world) that can be expected to connect with that cross, let alone actually score from it. It completely kills the game and the tie after Juventus looked like getting back into it.

 

[Peyroteo]

Have you seen Portugal's qualifying groups lol?

European teams that haven't missed a tournament since 2004: Portugal, Spain, France and Germany. It's not easy.

If not for Henry's handball France could have easily not been there too. We've had plenty of tough groups too, which is why we've been to 3 playoffs

 

[Bobski]

He got outscored from the likes of Oliver Bierhoff (playing for the mighty Udine se) and co. There were so many Serie A strikers who were out scoring him. People are out of their mind if they don't think that RoMessi wouldn't have scored much more. Then there is also the longevity argument and the trophy argument.

Scoring more, yes very possible and likely, but these 60/70 goal seasons? Not with the leagues as they were then with greater parity.

Ronaldo was amazing scoring that many goals, mainly because that was not a dominant Inter team and he had to do so much for the team.

 

[bebeanderson]

I was more taking the example of him getting credit for that world Cup where he did feck all.

Let's not forget that he played in a regional league (in the best club in the world) for most of his career, and his stats barely match that of Ron and Messi.

He has two magnificent performances in world cups (in different positions) which is why it can be argued that he is still the greatest (actually, I have him as joined greatest with Messi) but I think that the distance between him and RoMessi has become really small, if there is actually any distance in the first place.

That’s one way to look at it. You didn’t mention Pele was out injured at 1966 WC as well. So, in essence, Pele is 2 for 2 in WC attempts, and 4 for 5 in what would be his “champions league” (He’d have a healthy 9 titles at least (libertadores + intercontinental) if Santos didn’t give up participating when he was in his physical prime.

So, my point is : what else can you ask more of Pele? He won all the big tournaments he played in basically. His stats are also crazy. Was he supposed to do the Olympic hurdle or swimming also? I just dont know what else..

 

[fishfingers15]

http://www.football365.com/news/cristiano-ronaldo-the-truly-ridiculous-statistics-2

The man is just simply ridiculous.

 

[Pink Moon]

European teams that haven't missed a tournament since 2004: Portugal, Spain, France and Germany. It's not easy.

If not for Henry's handball France could have easily not been there too. We've had plenty of tough groups too, which is why we've been to 3 playoffs

Can't say I agree with that.

Those aren't tough groups. The fact Portugal have required a playoff to come through probably says more about Portugal underperforming in the group than the quality of the group.

Like I say, Ronaldo has been outstanding for club and country throughout his entire career but I don't think that particular point is a fair one.

 

[Revan]

Scoring more, yes very possible and likely, but these 60/70 goal seasons? Not with the leagues as they were then with greater parity.

Ronaldo was amazing scoring that many goals, mainly because that was not a dominant Inter team and he had to do so much for the team.

Probably not 60-70 (Ron never managed 70 anyway), but I think that consistently scoring 40 per season (sometimes even 50 per season) was doable and they would have done it.

Serie A at end of nineties/beginning of this century was defensibly superb, but not as in the eighties for example. RoMessi would have found ways of scoring.

 

[Kazi]

He’s probably firmly in Tier 2 now - you can’t deny his greatness.

Tier 1 is obviously reserved for Pele, Maradona amd Messi.

 

[Revan]

That’s one way to look at it. You didn’t mention Pele was out injured at 1966 WC as well. So, in essence, Pele is 2 for 2 in WC attempts, and 4 for 5 in what would be his “champions league” (He’d have a healthy 9 titles at least (libertadores + intercontinental) if Santos didn’t give up participating when he was in his physical prime.

So, my point is : what else can you ask more of Pele? He won all the big tournaments he played in basically. His stats are also crazy. Was he supposed to do the Olympic hurdle or swimming also? I just dont know what else..

And that is why he is first/joined first, but I don't think he should be in a category on his own.

Also, football was significantly less qualitative back then, people usually forget about this.

 

[Darwin09]

Numerical rankings are too subjective. I prefer tiers.

This was made in 2013. With regards to Ronaldo I agree with him being a level below the likes of Pele, Beckenbauer, Cryuff... I'd move Messi up one tier as well.

That’s brilliant. Who did this?

 

[Kazi]

He’s probably firmly in Tier 2 now - you can’t deny his greatness.

Tier 1 is obviously reserved for Pele, Maradona amd Messi.

 

[Bobski]

Probably not 60-70 (Ron never managed 70 anyway), but I think that consistently scoring 40 per season (sometimes even 50 per season) was doable and they would have done it.

Serie A at end of nineties/beginning of this century was defensibly superb, but not as in the eighties for example. RoMessi would have found ways of scoring.

Again, it is part of why I believe that cross generational stats alone are a flawed part of judging players. How do you compare wingers of the 90's to wide players from now for example?. Guys like Giggs and Figo were among the best wide players of that era and they were 1 in 5 guys as scorers, it is what the role allowed. I remember the surprise when Overmars came to Arsenal and started scoring 14/15 goals in a season, just was not what that role was expected to provide, Ginola scored 7 goals the year he won player of the year as another example.

Long winded way to emphasize that it is not the goal record that sets Messi and Ronaldo apart for me, it is how they consistently impact big games and perform in pressure moments. That is what truly distinguishes the best of the best for me.

 

[BeforeKeanetherewasRobson]

Numerical rankings are too subjective. I prefer tiers.

This was made in 2013. With regards to Ronaldo I agree with him being a level below the likes of Pele, Beckenbauer, Cryuff... I'd move Messi up one tier as well.

Cool image... there's a few that people could maybe make a case to tweak but how on earth Henry gets in that category is mind boggling.

 

[Peyroteo]

Like I say, Ronaldo has been outstanding for club and country throughout his entire career but I don't think that particular point is a fair one.

Why not? It shows we've been getting better results than countries we have no business competing with. Russia and Denmark are good teams that are always very tough games for us, we end up second and then we're in a playoff where everything is possible. Could have easily pointed out our results in tournaments instead but just going there so consistently is also an achievement that I don't think we'd repeat for a long time if the Euros and the World Cup hadn't increased.

 

[RedRonaldo]

These cross-era comparisons just don't work. Would Ron have his club performance if he played 10+ years at Sporting? Without seeing the ball against the big clubs, etc?
It's not that simple.

At club level Maradona has a few outstanding season in Napoli, did ok for Barcelona for 2 years, but his cocaine addiction has made his game deteriorate fast when approaching early 30's. Overall (consistency, impact, stats, records, achievements, success) he is really no match to Ronaldo.

 

[Ishdalar]

Probably not 60-70 (Ron never managed 70 anyway), but I think that consistently scoring 40 per season (sometimes even 50 per season) was doable and they would have done it.

Serie A at end of nineties/beginning of this century was defensibly superb, but not as in the eighties for example. RoMessi would have found ways of scoring.

I don't think they would, same way they don't do it at Copa America, Euro or WC level with their national teams

Ronaldo is 34/12 in Euro & World Cups, Messi is 36/13, I don't it's about the defensive level of the league as I'm one to think everything people at top level in football are doing, is objectively better than 20 or 30 years ago, it's the disparity between squads and specially due to the Bosman law, if Ronaldo played in the 90's he'd probably have Marcelo, Modric and Casemiro on his team, no Varane, Navas, Kroos, Benzema, Bale, James or Kovacic. Same for Barcelona, and with the extra point that rival teams would have a bigger pool of foreign players to choose from, upgrading the overall competitiveness of the league and preventing duopolies.

Best case scenario, in Spain at least, I don't think Leo and Cris would outscore players like Romario or Ronaldo and do it consistently, even Bebeto if you set them to play for Deportivo, and if they would, not by much, I'd put chances of Cristiano Ronaldo scoring 35 as high as his one 60 goals season, followed by 32/33 goals seasons.

I think we need to keep in mind how strong current superteams are today, and take into account international football to put players in context to compare them with guys like Pelé, Maradona or Cruyff. Everything on today football, from medicine, to squad depth, advanced stats and complete coverage of their feats, is against those guys if we are to compare them against current top players.

 

[adexkola]

Cool image... there's a few that people could maybe make a case to tweak but how on earth Henry gets in that category is mind boggling.

I didn't make the image, @antohan did. Please re-direct all inquiries to him.

 

[Pink Moon]

Why not? It shows we've been getting better results than countries we have no business competing with. Russia and Denmark are good teams that are always very tough games for us, we end up second and then we're in a playoff where everything is possible. Could have easily pointed out our results in tournaments instead but just going there so consistently is also an achievement that I don't think we'd repeat for a long time if the Euros and the World Cup hadn't increased.

No it doesn't. It shows that Portugal are rightfully qualifying from groups which contain minnows. Nothing more, nothing less.

Whether or not other teams qualify from their groups is irrelevant as it's different teams we're discussing. We can only focus on Portugal.

 

[Pink Moon]

At club level Maradona has a few outstanding season in Napoli, did ok for Barcelona for 2 years, but his cocaine addiction has made his game deteriorate fast when approaching early 30's. Overall (consistency, impact, stats, records, achievements, success) he is really no match to Ronaldo.

What about ability?

 

[Handré1990]

Second best player ever imo. Too young for most of these players people go on about. Messi is the only one better imo, from the eye test as it were.

 

[Acheron]

He should be at the very top right now. At least for Real Madrid he's only behind Di Stéfano and he's already a legend for Portugal and the very best of this generation with only Messi being comparable with how dominant they have been on club level.

So while I'm not very interested in comparing him to very old players I never saw play Ronaldo is going to be talked about one of the greatest footballers of his generation and ever.

 

[Fergus' son]

Somewhere near the top.

 

[Treble]

Top 5.

 

[Champagne Football]

Like last season CR7 did absolutely nothing until February or March when he suddenly started lashing in the goals in when it counts and he's fresh as a daisy now and unstoppable when on this form. Messi on the other hand has been putting in a shift since the start of the season in a desperate attempt to win the league also so it remains to be seen if he can stay fresh for the remaining CL games.

I can't see anything other than another CL for Real due to Ronaldo being fresh and on fire.

For years I've been saying Messi is easily the GOAT but with every game that passes where Ronaldo continues to defy what was thought was the maximum a human footballing genius could achieve in a lifetime then I am starting to lean more towards saying both of them should equally be considered the GOATs due to consistent genius and brilliance from both of them over a 10 or 12 year period where the likes of Zidane, Pele and Maradona did not even come close to sustaining footballing perfection and endless highlight reel football for that length of time.

GOATS list should look like this
1. Ronaldo and Messi tied
2. Pele and Maradona tied
3. Zidane, Cryuff, Ronaldinho, Fat Ronaldo, Conor Sammon etc

 

[BeforeKeanetherewasRobson]

I didn't make the image, @antohan did. Please re-direct all inquiries to him.

Ahhhhh, that explains a lot.

 

[Charles Miller]

Second only behind Messi in all competitions and in Champions League he is the GOAT.

Including the world cup?

 

[Bobski]

I don't think they would, same way they don't do it at Copa America, Euro or WC level with their national teams

Ronaldo is 34/12 in Euro & World Cups, Messi is 36/13, I don't it's about the defensive level of the league as I'm one to think everything people at top level in football are doing, is objectively better than 20 or 30 years ago, it's the disparity between squads and specially due to the Bosman law, if Ronaldo played in the 90's he'd probably have Marcelo, Modric and Casemiro on his team, no Varane, Navas, Kroos, Benzema, Bale, James or Kovacic. Same for Barcelona, and with the extra point that rival teams would have a bigger pool of foreign players to choose from, upgrading the overall competitiveness of the league and preventing duopolies.

Best case scenario, in Spain at least, I don't think Leo and Cris would outscore players like Romario or Ronaldo and do it consistently, even Bebeto if you set them to play for Deportivo, and if they would, not by much, I'd put chances of Cristiano Ronaldo scoring 35 as high as his one 60 goals season, followed by 32/33 goals seasons.

I think we need to keep in mind how strong current superteams are today, and take into account international football to put players in context to compare them with guys like Pelé, Maradona or Cruyff. Everything on today football, from medicine, to squad depth, advanced stats and complete coverage of their feats, is against those guys if we are to compare them against current top players.

Exactly. How more interesting would the CL and domestic leagues be with a greater dispersal of talent? Look at Madrid last night, Ronaldo, Benzema, Isco, Kroos, Casmeiro, Modric with Bale, Asensio and Kovacic on the bench! Ridiculous, ideally they would have about 4 of them and the rest would be competing against each other. Apply that to the rest of the top teams and suddenly you have competition again, achievements mean something.

 

[jatin]

Cool image... there's a few that people could maybe make a case to tweak but how on earth Henry gets in that category is mind boggling.

True, especially considering Figo is in the great category while Henry is in the demi-god category and RVN is nowhere on the list while still having the likes of shevchenko.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

For me it was the exact opposite. 65 minutes in, Juve had been the better team, looked way more solid defensively, were controlling the midfield and they're 2-0 down. Isco was great in possession but the first goal aside he didn't add anything offensively, even for that goal did he really do anything special? He just put the ball in the box and then it's Ronaldo's and Benzema's movement that makes the difference, same for the second goal. Put a Maradona, Messi, Cruyff, Zidane, etc. there instead of Ronaldo and I geniunely don't think they even win that game nevermind by the margin they did. The way he impacts the game is very different from the way those players do but I think in games like yesterday it showed why it can be just or even more effective.

Yeah we can agree to disagree there because I didn't see Juve as the better team for any of the match. They had a few decent moves but they always looked like they were struggling to even string 3-4 passes together. That Juve side looked significantly worse on the ball than the Pirlo-Vidal-Pogba Juve sides. To me they never looked like they got in rhythm nor did they look very dangerous whereas Real felt dangerous every time they touched the ball.

Also, its a bit weird to just replace Cristiano with someone like Maradona or Cruyff because they are totally different players. This Real side was built around maximizing Cristiano's output not built around a player like Maradona.

 

[RedRonaldo]

What about ability?

Ability-wise Maradona is the best player I've ever seen. But its subjective.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

True, especially considering Figo is in the great category while Henry is in the demi-god category and RVN is nowhere on the list while still having the likes of shevchenko.

Henry had a higher and longer peak than Figo IMO and most non-PL fans I know personally would rate Shevchenko over RvN.

 

[antohan]

I didn't make the image, @antohan did. Please re-direct all inquiries to him.

Not really, it was an entire thread with an initial set of tiers and that was my take incorporating views expressed by posters.

Henry does look off, but I have no recollection of feeling that way. Time, you know, his Demi-God PL-tearing mode was too fresh in our minds I guess.

@BeforeKeanetherewasRobson

 

[harms]

He got outscored from the likes of Oliver Bierhoff (playing for the mighty Udine se) and co. There were so many Serie A strikers who were out scoring him. People are out of their mind if they don't think that RoMessi wouldn't have scored much more. Then there is also the longevity argument and the trophy argument.

Lazy argument. He was usually marked by 3 or 4 players at the time — neither Bierhoff nor anyone else got that kind of treatment. He was a one-man army, often getting the ball at the half line and creating everything by himself. No one would score «much more» in that circumstances.

 

[harms]

Not really, it was an entire thread with an initial set of tiers and that was my take incorporating views expressed by posters.

Henry does look off, but I have no recollection of feeling that way. Time, you know, his Demi-God PL-tearing mode was too fresh in our minds I guess.

@BeforeKeanetherewasRobson

Oh, that picture originates from redcafe? Didn't know that.

 

[adexkola]

Not really, it was an entire thread with an initial set of tiers and that was my take incorporating views expressed by posters.

Henry does look off, but I have no recollection of feeling that way. Time, you know, his Demi-God PL-tearing mode was too fresh in our minds I guess.

@BeforeKeanetherewasRobson

Heh, didn't mean to throw you under the bus. I remember completely agreeing with your categorizations and criteria for each bucket.

 

[Charles Miller]

Like last season CR7 did absolutely nothing until February or March when he suddenly started lashing in the goals in when it counts and he's fresh as a daisy now and unstoppable when on this form. Messi on the other hand has been putting in a shift since the start of the season in a desperate attempt to win the league also so it remains to be seen if he can stay fresh for the remaining CL games.

I can't see anything other than another CL for Real due to Ronaldo being fresh and on fire.

For years I've been saying Messi is easily the GOAT but with every game that passes where Ronaldo continues to defy what was thought was the maximum a human footballing genius could achieve in a lifetime then I am starting to lean more towards saying both of them should equally be considered the GOATs due to consistent genius and brilliance from both of them over a 10 or 12 year period where the likes of Zidane, Pele and Maradona did not even come close to sustaining footballing perfection and endless highlight reel football for that length of time.

GOATS list should look like this
1. Ronaldo and Messi tied
2. Pele and Maradona tied
3. Zidane, Cryuff, Ronaldinho, Fat Ronaldo, Conor Sammon etc

This is bollocks. Pele won a wc in 1958 and another one in 1970. You will not find so many "highlights" because they dont had cable tv or internet in those times...Cristiano Ronaldo can score 10.000 goals for Real Madrid, but Harry Kane probably can do it too.

Cr7 is not in the same page with Pele, Maradona and Messi. I dont care about stats, its not an american sport.

You will not find so many material about Pele, but you can watch endless hours of Maradona playing. Do it and tell me with a straight face that Cristiano Ronaldo is better than Maradona.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

Not really, it was an entire thread with an initial set of tiers and that was my take incorporating views expressed by posters.

Henry does look off, but I have no recollection of feeling that way. Time, you know, his Demi-God PL-tearing mode was too fresh in our minds I guess.

@BeforeKeanetherewasRobson

That's a damn accurate list IMO. My only question would be aren't defenders a little underrated? Figueroa, Moore and Maldini could be in God Tier IMO.

 

[Treble]

Zidane is considered better than Platini only because the younger fans are clueless about how good Platini was.