he also won with BarcelonaHe won the Uefa Cup in 97/98, ONCE, please don't go inventing trophies for him.
97/98 was also the first season that the CL included non-champions and the Uefa became anything but "big".
Where does Cristiano Ronaldo rank amongst the pantheon of greats?
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He played for Barcelona in 96/97. Uefa Cup winner 1997 = Schalke
Lol, hilarious. You are just wonderfully inconsistent.
When R9 had a stacked team like Messi and Ronaldo, he severely outperformed them. Football is a team sport.
That's why when analyzing players, I go by eye test, and what they could do on a pitch. I don't put R9 below those two.. I'm not a Human Resources employee, I'm not looking at their resume, just as a footballer what they could technically and athletically do.
Luiz Ronaldo has never ever outperformed Cristiano or Messi in his entire career, that's why he finished his club career winning so little, despite playing for some of the biggest clubs around Europe.
Or are you referring to internationals?
As for the eye test, how many full games of Luiz Ronaldo have you seen? or do you go by the youtube test?
Barce wasn't in the UEFA Cup in 96-97 they were in the Cup Winners Cup.He played for Barcelona in 96/97. Uefa Cup winner 1997 = Schalke
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1997_UEFA_Cup_Winners'_Cup_Final
Don't be so ethnocentric. For a huge chunk of the world, International football is more important and tough to win silverware.Luiz Ronaldo has never ever outperformed Cristiano or Messi in his entire career, that's why he finished his club career winning so little, despite playing for some of the biggest clubs around Europe.
Or are you referring to internationals?
As for the eye test, how many full games of Luiz Ronaldo have you seen? or do you go by the youtube test?
Ronaldo's international career blows Messi and Cris out of the water. 2 World Cups, 3 finals. 2 Copa Americas and 1 Confederations cup.
"Oh but Brazil was so stacked!" The difference between Brazil and Portugal is the difference between United and Real to those UEFA Cup Barça and Inter teams.
Why do Messi and Cris get the benefit of the doubt because of average team in international stage but Ronaldo does not get one in his club career (And he STILL won same number of La Liga's as Cris, and the UEFA Cup).
Heck, the 1998 Runner up carrying job by Ronaldo is more impressive than anything Messi and Cris did in this stage. Sorry, Cristiano beat Poland and Wales, I forgot that.
Meant CWCHe played for Barcelona in 96/97. Uefa Cup winner 1997 = Schalke
Wouldn't put him in my top 5 tbh, but definitely top 10.
For me whether a player is a GOAT is determined by various factors
1. Pure talent
2. Individual honours and trophies
3. Longevity in their career
4. Consistency
5. Big game performances
So for me guys like luis Ronaldo and ronaldinho are lower mainly because of point 3
1. Pure talent
2. Individual honours and trophies
3. Longevity in their career
4. Consistency
5. Big game performances
So for me guys like luis Ronaldo and ronaldinho are lower mainly because of point 3
Did you miss the "team" element I mentioned. In summer 1996, Real Madrid transform as a team. They had one of the top head coach at the time in Capello to join them and quite some huge players (with hindsight or not) in. Barcelona had some very good players beside Ronaldo in, but as hindsight shows, Sir Bobby Robson and then the next coaches didn't use most of them well. Laurent Blanc left after this season. F.Couto, and V.Baia left. Brazilian Ronaldo came out with how sketchy the Barcelona board ran things not long ago...
Madrid didn't play in Europe that season. Sound familiar to another team recent walked the league without European duty but struggled when they had, right? Barcelona lost La Liga by 2 points. Winning more and Drew less games. Scored a number more goals. The defeats due to the philosophical clash which prevented the defense to function properly. You know Sir Bobby Robson preferred more direct play while Barcelona veteran prefers taking risk passing between defensive players. Barcelona that season pushed all out in every competition they were in. They won most of the competitions while gave a proper push for the title challenge and Ronaldo was the key when this team had the same problem since their decline after Cruyff left.
Inter was challenging Juventus all season and the title was only gone after Inter being directly defeated by Juventus. Remember Serie A at this time only have 34 rounds. The swing from being a challenger to comfortable lead is harder to overcome given there were less games to come back. Inter threw in the towel after that defeat and let the gap widened a bit further. The picture between 96-97 and 97-98 was very different if one followed the whole season other than point gaps. Also remember Lippi is like SAF of the Serie A. He didn't try to make point record when his team was in position to. When the league was in hand, his teams tended to drop points and let opposition lessen the point gaps, which happened in 96-97.
So basically, Ronaldo carried teams under good coaches, but against a superior teams with top coaches at the time.
Barcelona and Inter were close to win title prior his arrival was laughable made up.
Guess who's the team in 10th place with most goals in the CL.. Well , actually is a player - Ronaldo .
That is got to be one of the most ridiculous statements ever on this forum.
2 WCs. 1994 he featured for 0 min to get that medal.
I think that's an important distinction to make between career and peak achievement. Who would you have as top 10 in peak performance?
My opinion probably changes slightly depending on how I try to work in defenders and my mood but something like:
Maradona, Messi, Pele, Cruyff, Beckenbauer, Fenomeno, Zico, Platini, Puskas, Di Stefano
I want to put Figueroa in there next and then Cristiano probably after that. If I think only attackers then Cris probably makes top 10 for me but its tough when I think about Garrincha, Zidane, Best.
Number one
Can I just ask a question, albeit somewhat off topic...
It’s actually something I’ve always wondered, why does Pele’s goal tally on Wikipedia and almost every statistical source include goals he has scored in friendlies and unofficial matches etc. when, as far as I know, literally no other player has these goals included? Like, is there an actual reason?
It’s actually something I’ve always wondered, why does Pele’s goal tally on Wikipedia and almost every statistical source include goals he has scored in friendlies and unofficial matches etc. when, as far as I know, literally no other player has these goals included? Like, is there an actual reason?
How old are you?
I think its unfair to try and rank the greats of all time. At a certain point you just deserve a place on the main stage.
Ronaldo has done more for country, at mores clubs and without a lifetime supported by the best supporting cast.
For as great as Messi is there are many tests he hasn't taken or had to take.
Ronaldo as a story is superior in almost every way.
But you can't ignore the stats of Messi. Both are top of their game.
Ronaldo has done more for country, at mores clubs and without a lifetime supported by the best supporting cast.
For as great as Messi is there are many tests he hasn't taken or had to take.
Ronaldo as a story is superior in almost every way.
But you can't ignore the stats of Messi. Both are top of their game.
Whoever disagrees with Messi > Ronaldo, they have no understanding of the game of football.
I’ve argued for years that Maradona is still top dog, but Messi & Ronaldo just don’t let up.
I honestly think it’s gotten to the stage now where you’re being absolutely foolish not to rate the two of them as the two best players ever. It’s absolutely ludicrous what they have been doing and continue to do over such a long period of time.
I honestly think it’s gotten to the stage now where you’re being absolutely foolish not to rate the two of them as the two best players ever. It’s absolutely ludicrous what they have been doing and continue to do over such a long period of time.
I agree with the point that it is a bit pointless to rank the greatest players. Some of them had an extremely high ceiling and did it at the biggest stage like Maradona whose performances in '86 are probably the benchmark in football, others like Cruyff and Beckenbauer are fantastic leaders and huge personalities, and still others like Messi nd Ronaldo are breaking all records and are performing at their best for 12 years now. All of them are up there with the gratest.
The winning a World Cup argument doesn't count for me unless the player in question was a standout player of the tournament. You have to look at their contribution in the tournaments they played for the argument to hold any weight. Even if Pelé technically won the 1962 tournament and Ronaldo won the 1994 tournament, those wins have no value as far as determining their greatness as players go. The wins in 1958, 1970 and 2002, on the other hand, do.
I value Messi's contribution in '14 and Cruyff's contribution in '74 higher than those of most World Cup winning players, even if they fell short in the final and didn't actually win anything. To put it in simple terms, Jesus Navas has played in and won a World Cup final and he's still a joke of a player.
A few players have reached such a game-changing level in single tournaments that it largely defines their career as a whole. Garrincha in '62 is the prime example, while Maradona in '86 was so good it largely overshadows the fact that he also pretty much single-handedly won the Scudetto twice with Napoli against some vintage Juventus and Milan teams. I feel Cristiano is touching on that level of career-defining greatness with his performances in the Champions League in recent years, but the biggest argument in his favour will always be the extraordinary consistency over the entire span of his career.
I value Messi's contribution in '14 and Cruyff's contribution in '74 higher than those of most World Cup winning players, even if they fell short in the final and didn't actually win anything. To put it in simple terms, Jesus Navas has played in and won a World Cup final and he's still a joke of a player.
A few players have reached such a game-changing level in single tournaments that it largely defines their career as a whole. Garrincha in '62 is the prime example, while Maradona in '86 was so good it largely overshadows the fact that he also pretty much single-handedly won the Scudetto twice with Napoli against some vintage Juventus and Milan teams. I feel Cristiano is touching on that level of career-defining greatness with his performances in the Champions League in recent years, but the biggest argument in his favour will always be the extraordinary consistency over the entire span of his career.
By all accounts, Cruyff's performances were much better than Messi's. What did Messi do in the knockout games? One assist vs the Swiss. That's bordering on feck all.
Ronaldo is easily top 5 of all time, with the top3 being very clear.
How can you come to this conclusion, honestly?
Not being smart, but Ronaldo has done everything there is to do at club level, broken every record that can be broken, not sure what it takes in some people's books.
I think this is an often-forgotten point. Plenty of greats have won the tournament but few have reached the lofty heights that Maradona, Pele and Garrincha climbed. Should either Messi or Ronaldo win it this summer, it will of course add to their ever-expanding legacies, but unless they perform to their absolute peak it's hard to justify they have replicated the level of performance and contribution delivered by a World Cup great like those above or others like Cruyff who didn't quite make it but were still tremendous throughout.
Yes, by some distance. To date I don't think either him or Cristiano have put in a World Cup to compare with the top 30-50 performers of all time.
He's number 2 ever for me.
There’s a argument saying CL these days are at far higher quality than WC in the old days, which I think is a valid statement. Which means the greatest player in CL history should be consider as GOAT, maybe even above those WC greats.
Hence by the above logic, Ronaldo is the GOAT.
Hence by the above logic, Ronaldo is the GOAT.
I'm, of course, biased, but surley there can't be any debate about Ronaldo being in the top 5 now? After all he's done.
I think he's #1, but those spots on the very top will, obviously, always be open for debate. Top 5, however, can't be in any doubt.
So you can only be the greatest of all time if you've shone in the CL these days (i.e. the last 10-15 years)?
I agree that Cruyff was better, but you're harsh on Messi there. He was close to the best player in each of the knockout games as well, even if it didn't add up to much in terms of statistics. He also had the disadvantage of playing with epic serial bottler Higuain. Messi rightfully won the Golden Ball for what he did in Brazil, and him not winning the final is as much of a black mark on his tournament as Ronaldo being injured for pretty much all of the final in 2016. They were still the outstanding performers for their respective teams and deserve recognition for what they did in those tournaments. It's unfair to disregard Messi's World Cup just because he doesn't have the medal at the end.
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It wasn't very special, imo. Robben had a better tournament. Messi being Messi can always be amonng the better players but his performances pale in comparison with Maradona's or Cruyff's WC games.
Fits right in with the Messi brigade.
I don't buy that because tournament to tournament both CL or World Cup, the quality can change. Also with the increasing familiarity of the same teams reaching the QF stages in the CL, (how many times has Real played Juve in recent years, or faced Barca etc etc).. it becomes much easier for players to get used to facing other elite sides, almost to the point where it feels like domestic competition.
The more familiar your foe, yes the opponent will get to know you better but you will also have less 'shock' factor facing them, know their weaknesses, know their stadiums and you will know how to beat them and prey on their weaknesses. Compare that to the world cup, alien climates, once every 4 years, you don't even know your own team mates that well let alone being able to prepare against the same opponents.. it is still a very very tough challenge from an individual perspective and that is why it hasn't been easy for Ronaldo and Messi to dominate in international football vs club football. It represents the highest challenge for an individual in football IMO.
Disagree with Gio that Messi or Ronaldo need to have spectacular individual world cups, they have a tremendous body of work as it stands, just winning it or being 7/10 and above for the tournament (and getting to final) will give them a massive lift in terms of all time standing.
He’s one of the best 2 players of his generation. Beyond that, I don’t see much point comparing him with players who most of us never saw in any detail.
It’s incredible how everyone who states their opinions as facts like that are all in the Messi camp.Incredible, isn't it?
Extremely arrogant claim.
What I meant was that their status in the international game will be influenced by what they win, but will ultimately rely on the level of performance they produce in the major tournaments.
Why does that matter?
Au contraire, put me in a team with good passes who give me time and space and I can go from entirely shite to fairly exceptional.
Now I know Messi creates some of his space with his low centre of gravity, but he has also had a lifetime supported by some of the best midfielders of all time and in a weaker league defensively.
Ronaldo has dominated regardless of those around him. Messi hasn't, but the only proof of that is Argentina as he hasn't been tested in other leagues.
That said both have phenomenal CL records which pits you against the best of other leagues
There will always be an argument for one and a counter argument for the other and for me that just means call them equal and let them share the spot light.