Which was the better signing - Mata or Fellaini?

[Irish Jet]

I'd definitely disagree with the bit in bold, not so much with the rest of your post. He's definitely been a disappointment overall but I do feel for him spending his prime under such incredibly conservative/negative managers. Which makes it almost impossible for a player like him to excel.

The bit in bold is true statistically and generally.

Since Ozil joined Arsenal he has 22 goals and 41 PL assists. Mata has 21 goals and 19 assists in the same period. Ozil got 19 in 2016 season alone. Mata has never had more than 5 since joining. Ozil has also created more chances than any player since joining – his chances per minute is better than anyone too. He has been far, far better and far less scrutinized.

Ozil is actually a great player who has issues in certain types of games – A luxury player but one with world class qualities. Mata is just consistently ineffective regardless of opposition. He’s mediocre and nowhere close to Ozil.

 

[el3mel]

No it didn't suit Mata to the core considering we absolutely had/have no movement. Mata needs to be playing in triangles and having high level of movement. Matas brain is what makes him the footballer he is.

Not really. Mata style of play is taking the ball and keeping recycling it with aimless passes to midfield then getting it again and so on. He's a possession based player who barely runs and barely tries any surprising passes like Pogba tries all the time. Slow paced possession systems that keep recycling the ball is what suit him so that his possession based skill will be useful and LVG suited him to the core.

Pep would have never tolerated him long actually.

 

[Irish Jet]

Consistent mediocrity helped by us being absolutely fecking shite. Not only that but Mata has good return on goals and assists here too.

I'm not sure what people expected Mata to be? He needed a manager who built a team around him when he's played in behind a striker, that was his best position for Chelsea. He has been dragged all over the fecking place here by Moyes, LVG and Mournihno who misused him horribly.

He's been an ever present in this shite yet you make excuses for him rather than hold him to account. How many different players, managers and philosophies must we burn through before we see the best of Juan Mata. This is absolutely pathetic stuff, really.

He's just not that good. He's played through the middle plenty and not produced. His best form actually came out wide. These same excuses were never made for Rooney even though a lot of the same things were happening with him. No - you could just see he was poor. With Mata you can just see he's mediocre. He has nothing to him that would worry the opposition. A joy to play against.

 

[ash_86]

You're counting the first goal in 3-0 and 4-0 wins as "getting the winning goal"? Hmmm.

In which case Mata has scored 18 "winning goals", twice as many as Fellaini. Just as he has scored twice as many actual goals as Fellaini, and three times as many assists. Hard to square that with him having less "impact".

Fellaini was played deep most of the times and came in the dying minutes to change the game. Also his defensive contribution must be taken into tally. I guess it evens out.

 

[OnlyTwoDaSilvas]

Both were just ok. Decent at best. 6 out of 10. Good spells mixed with poor spells. Fellaini would often have some awful games but still crop up with an important goal. He'd go to war for the team as well, never shied away from getting hurt. Didn't want him at all before we signed him, but I definitely warmed to him a little bit.

Mata would often do things that looked nice, quick turns and passages of play, one touch in tight areas, but his goal and assist contribution should have been a bit more than it was.

Neither were flops, but they weren't great either. Comparative the all the post-Fergie signings, they're nowhere near the bottom. They're both much closer to the top.

 

[antohan]

Fellaini scored some very important goals, but entire body of work has to be Mata.

I expected more from both, not just for the price tag, but wouldn't call them bad signings. Depay was what I call a bad signing.

 

[Kag]

Why would you need such a view reinforced? Fellaini came with far, far lower expectations that Mata. From the outset he was a player many of us didn't want anywhere near the club - contrast that to Mata, coming from Chelsea as one of the absolute stars of the league, what on earth else would you think the two would be compared as?

From the very start, Fellaini was a player who had to try and win over a fanbase who weren't convinced. Mata, everybody expected to be wowed by and he has got nowhere near that level of performance here and is often just dumped off to a position where his weaknesses are most made up for.

The third paragraph doesn't say much when you're comparing a forward to a midfielder - Mata not outscoring Fellaini would be a shambles, likewise for assists. I don't think you're being at all objective contrary to saying 'objectively' in your post, in fact, you're tilting to favour Mata by mentioning goals and assists. A 'better' player, absolutely nobody thinks Fellaini is a better footballer than Juan Mata, which actually weakens Mata's position further, because as the better player, he shouldn't even be compared to Fellaini unless Fellaini performed absolutely out of his skin to match the higher bar... or, Mata performed worse, to lower his own bar to be in line with the likes of Fellaini. One player was purchased for a club record fee for the very reason he was supposed to come here and be a star, the other, many baulked at the £25m price tag, and not just because Moyes ballsed up getting him for the lower fee with his dithering.
Well no, that's patently false and a reductionist way to enter a discussion. Whether you like him or not (I don't), Fellaini is a player who has given the opposition far more to think about than Mata has in his time here, been utilised in many a donkeyish way as an important conduit we've utilised time and again and has enabled others to play. If you're going to be objective, you take that into account. If you're not, then you make your own view redundant.

Mata has been the better signing as he has been the better player for us.

 

[Paxi]

Not really. Mata style of play is taking the ball and keeping recycling it with aimless passes to midfield then getting it again and so on. He's a possession based player who barely runs and barely tries any surprising passes like Pogba tries all the time. Slow paced possession systems that keep recycling the ball is what suit him so that his possession based skill will be useful and LVG suited him to the core.

Pep would have never tolerated him long actually.

No it's not keeping it and recycling it. He can certainly keep possession but that's not Mata. It's not his fault that's the way we play. He is best for playing the final ball as shown by the assist statistics (only Silva has more I think) and scoring. He's very good with his movement and is nightmare to play against, again, which he showed many times when he played against us.

 

[antohan]

Not really. Mata style of play is taking the ball and keeping recycling it with aimless passes to midfield then getting it again and so on. He's a possession based player who barely runs and barely tries any surprising passes like Pogba tries all the time. Slow paced possession systems that keep recycling the ball is what suit him so that his possession based skill will be useful and LVG suited him to the core.

Pep would have never tolerated him long actually.

That doesn't sound like Mata at all.

 

[Paxi]

He's been an ever present in this shite yet you make excuses for him rather than hold him to account. How many different players, managers and philosophies must we burn through before we see the best of Juan Mata. This is absolutely pathetic stuff, really.

He's just not that good. He's played through the middle plenty and not produced. His best form actually came out wide. These same excuses were never made for Rooney even though a lot of the same things were happening with him. No - you could just see he was poor. With Mata you can just see he's mediocre. He has nothing to him that would worry the opposition. A joy to play against.

Yeah let's hold a player to account who you are going to missuse? How does that work? I'd hold him to account if he was part of our problems. Mata wasn't. If anything we'd be worse off without Mata.

 

[el3mel]

No it's not keeping it and recycling it. He can certainly keep possession but that's not Mata. It's not his fault that's the way we play. He is best for playing the final ball as shown by the assist statistics (only Silva has more I think) and scoring. He's very good with his movement and is nightmare to play against, again, which he showed many times when he played against us.

Ok, why he's still fecking it up and slowing us now under Ole when we showed much fast paced, moving and running towards the defenses the previous game then when Mata started we're suddenly back to slow possession based and aimless recycling around the parked bus with no effective key passes ?

It's the way he plays mate.

 

[Paxi]

He's been an ever present in this shite yet you make excuses for him rather than hold him to account. How many different players, managers and philosophies must we burn through before we see the best of Juan Mata. This is absolutely pathetic stuff, really.

He's just not that good. He's played through the middle plenty and not produced. His best form actually came out wide. These same excuses were never made for Rooney even though a lot of the same things were happening with him. No - you could just see he was poor. With Mata you can just see he's mediocre. He has nothing to him that would worry the opposition. A joy to play against.

Who is good in your eyes then?

 

[Paxi]

Ok, why he's still fecking it up and slowing us now under Ole it when we showed much fast paced and running towards then when Mata started we're suddenly back to slow possession based and aimless recycling around the parked bus with no effective key passes ?

It's the way he plays mate.

I'm not sure how he's slowing us up under Ole? What I saw yesterday from him in the second half, I couldn't ask anymore of him.

 

[el3mel]

I'm not sure how he's slowing us up under Ole? What I saw yesterday from him in the second half, I couldn't ask anymore of him.

You have a very low expectation then.

 

[Irish Jet]

Yeah let's hold a player to account who you are going to missuse? How does that work? I'd hold him to account if he was part of our problems. Mata wasn't. If anything we'd be worse off without Mata.

So he gets a free pass because four managers and counting don't rate him highly enough to build the team around him. Plenty of players have played out of position and the same excuses aren't made for them.

What even is this?

 

[Irish Jet]

Who is good in your eyes then?

Silva, KDB, Eriksen, Ozil, Coutinho etc. Basically the players who are/have been our rivals equivalent. Mata doesn't hold a candle to any of them.

 

[Paxi]

So he gets a free pass because four managers and counting don't rate him highly enough to build the team around him. Plenty of players have played out of position and the same excuses aren't made for them.

What even is this?

We've had Rooney occupying Matas position for most of the time. And Mata has been criticised a lot on here and I'm one of his critics but to dismiss him as a bad signing is fecking daft. Go through all the crucial goals he scored and assists he made for us and refresh your memory and then tell me Mata was not worth what we paid for him.

 

[Fortitude]

Mata has been the better signing as he has been the better player for us.

That's quite the cop out, Kag. And even then, it doesn't work without definition. The metrics you used were tilted, so without expansion, it wouldn't be a stretch to think your view of 'better' would be, too.

 

[Paxi]

Silva, KDB, Eriksen, Ozil, Coutinho etc. Basically the players who are/have been our rivals equivalent. Mata doesn't hold a candle to any of them.

Yeah those teams have been consistently better than us since Mata signed for us, yet Mata has similar goals and assists to all of them.

 

[Paxi]

You have a very low expectation then.

What do you want him to do? Channel his inner Iniesta? He's not that type of player.

 

[el3mel]

What do you want him to do? Channel his inner Iniesta? He's not that type of player.

Do what any playmaker is supposed to do I guess ? Move the ball faster, forward and try defense unlocking passes, instead of aimlessly recycling it like he always does.

Yesterday in the first half we didn't have a single shot on target and second half was nothing but crossing after crossing after crossing. We looked nothing like the previous games when we were building on ground and running towards defenders. You can't say that the introduction of some players in main lineup like Lukaku and Mata didn't contribute to us losing our shape we built in the previous games.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

Not really. Mata style of play is taking the ball and keeping recycling it with aimless passes to midfield then getting it again and so on. He's a possession based player who barely runs and barely tries any surprising passes like Pogba tries all the time. Slow paced possession systems that keep recycling the ball is what suit him so that his possession based skill will be useful and LVG suited him to the core.

Pep would have never tolerated him long actually.

You must have looked away for the two or three times he was trying intricate over the top passes to Sanchez yesterday.

 

[Reddy Rederson]

Mata has never been used properly here. His best seasons with chelsea he was (if my recollection is correct) a LAM. Moyes or LVG stuck im out on the right, and hes not now or ever had the ability to be a winger. Yet thats where the mangers keep putting him, Ole following that trend. He needs to be inside to get the best out of him. He needs fast wingers and a striker that will make runs for him and youll see his assists count go up dramatically.

Felliani was a terrible signing. The poster boy for the fact that Moyes and Woody had no clue what they were doing. His abilities seemingly were that he was a problem for defenders with his height and strength but in reality he was a calamity. Hence the knickname "elbows". He was always giving away free kicks and sometimes pens because of those flying elbows being at head hight to most other players. Ironically it wasnt until Jose got here that he started actually playing the game well. Even going so far as to grab a man of the match here and there.

Both these players have passion, and they both try/tried their best for the club. For different reason they havent worked out. Mata could still be very good for us, if he was used right(not wing). Felliani, is too lacking in some areas to ever displace our other players in his position.

I wish felliani all the best in china when it comes, and if mata is to go I wish him well too where ever he ends up. Its just a shame it never worked out for him here like it had at chelsea for those two outstanding seasons he had.

So while Mata is the better signing, I think felliani was used better. By Jose at least. Mata being stuck on the right has clouded how good a player he can be.

 

[MoskvaRed]

Fellaini has been better (marginally) in absolute terms and certainly better relative to expectations when we signed them. Neither are good enough for United but one gets treated on here like a pub player while the other gets talked about like a cruelly misused artist. In truth, both are Europa League level and would not get on the bench at City or Liverpool.

 

[Paxi]

Do what any playmaker is supposed to do I guess ? Move the ball faster, forward and try defense unlocking passes, instead of aimlessly recycling it like he always does.

Yesterday in the first half we didn't have a single shot on target and second half was nothing but crossing after crossing after crossing. We looked nothing like the previous games when we were building on ground and running towards defenders. You can't say that the introduction of some players in main lineup like Lukaku and Mata didn't contribute to us losing our shape we built in the previous games.

Yes I get that we play slower when we have Mata. But that's because we play him as an inverted winger without pace. He can't stretch the defence and hence the opposition are less worried about us causing problems.

I'd love to see 4-2-3-1 formation with Mata in the middle with Martial, Lingard and Rashford in front of him. But we're not going to see that because Pogba is one of a kind and of course he's better than peak Mata so why would we? But that doesn't mean Mata wouldn't do well in around those players where you don't have to use pace. You just have to have execellent football brain, vision, decision making and passing all of which Mata has.

 

[the chameleon]

Mata by a country mile! If we actually had a manager that utilised him properly, we may have been talking about Mata in a different light. We certainly wouldn't be having a thread like this. The only reason such a discussion is happening is that we have had 3 negative managers which were more suited to Fellaini's style of play and wasted Mata's best years in positions he isn't suited to . He still did decently, just not as good we expected. I think Rene and Fergie would have seen a better player.

Now if you're to talk about the expectation to impact ratio. I think Fellaini may have punched slightly above his weight and would edge it for me.

 

[el3mel]

Yes I get that we play slower when we have Mata. But that's because we play him as an inverted winger without pace. He can't stretch the defence and hence the opposition are less worried about us causing problems.

I'd love to see 4-2-3-1 formation with Mata in the middle with Martial, Lingard and Rashford in front of him. But we're not going to see that because Pogba is one of a kind and of course he's better than peak Mata so why would we? But that doesn't mean Mata wouldn't do well in around those players where you don't have use pace. You just have to have execellent football brain, vision, decision making and passing all of which Mata has.

He starts on the right flank yeah but he never actually stays there, that's the problem. He ends up spending 90% of the game leaving this position and joining the midfield to play centrally. I would have excused him if he stays on right flank the entire game but the problem is he doesn't, and him joining the midfield usually ends up occupying the positions other players want to move in, unbalancing the entire attacking gameplay. I'm not sure how will this be resolved by 4-2-3-1 considering he'll be occupying the place Pogba will want to move in during the game as well.

 

[Paxi]

He starts on the right flank yeah but he never actually stays there, that's the problem. He ends up spending 90% of the game leaving this position and joining the midfield to play centrally. I would have excused him if he stays on right flank the entire game but the problem is he doesn't, and him joining the midfield usually ends up occupying the positions other players want to move in, unbalancing the entire attacking gameplay. I'm not sure how will this be resolved by 4-2-3-1 considering he'll be occupying the place Pogba will want to move in during the game as well.

Well of course that's going to cause problems. But he's under instructions to venture into the midfield. If he wasn't and he kept doing that he'd be hooked off straight away. I mean if you don't stick to your position in Sunday League you'll get a bollocking and then subbed so I'm pretty sure it's the managers call here. So why blame Mata?

 

[el3mel]

Well of course that's going to cause problems. But he's under instructions to venture into the midfield. If he wasn't and he kept doing that he'd be hooked off straight away. I mean if you don't stick to your position in Sunday League you'll get a bollocking and then subbed so I'm pretty sure it's the managers call here. So why blame Mata?

If he stays on right flank, he'll be even worse, right ? So the managers tell him to move centrally. The problem he creates more problems either way rather than providing answers. He'll be useless if he stays on the flank and occupies other players position when he moves centrally and considering he barely does anything adventurous with the ball, I'm not sure he's worth the hassle.

 

[Kag]

That's quite the cop out, Kag. And even then, it doesn't work without definition. The metrics you used were tilted, so without expansion, it wouldn't be a stretch to think your view of 'better' would be, too.

You seem to be going out of your way to confuse this. By every metric Mata has been the better player for us. That isn’t including the eye test: the greatest statistic of them all.

In no way, shape or form has Fellaini been ‘better’ than Mata. It’s superfan rhetoric from the thinking man’s poster - or the exceedingly daft, perhaps.

 

[Fortitude]

You seem to be going out of your way to confuse this. By every metric Mata has been the better player for us. That isn’t including the eye test: the greatest statistic of them all.

In no way, shape or form has Fellaini been ‘better’ than Mata. It’s superfan rhetoric from the thinking man’s poster - or the exceedingly daft, perhaps.

I think you've copped out, again. Now resorting to a passive aggressive ad hominems, which aren't necessary and actually quite ironic given Mata's place, according to you, is easily above Fellaini's.

I guess that's the end of that, beings as your content is intended shut down discussion.

 

[Ducklegs]

Mata has done more than Fellaini, but it still hasnt amounted to a great deal.

 

[Nikelesh Reddy]

Mata - can't believe it's even a question

This.While it would be unfair to call Fellaini a flop...But it’s crystal clear that Matas been the better signing...

 

[marktan]

Neither have been particularly great.. but I think Fellaini has done more relative to expectations.

People always talk about Mata being great if utilised properly.. the fact is he's a luxury player that has no pace or strength. He doesn't have the Silva like ability to turn away from danger either. He's limited. Even Under Chelsea the season they won the CL, against Barca and Bayern he was a passenger.

 

[Jib]

Fellaini.
Mata is awful.

 

[minoo-utd]

Both are okay really and kind of players who give everything up to their LIMITS when wearing the shirt. And scored some real important goals as well.

Is Fellaini surely leaving though?

 

[Livvie]

He would have done far better if he'd been used in his best position. But he's never complained, just got on with it, and has been far from useless as some people are saying.

It's a bit of a daft comparison really - there are far more memorable Mata moments than there are Fellaini ones. On and off the pitch.

Look back a couple of seasons and see how United fans were calling him better than Silva.

Fellaini.
Mata is awful.

Why did the Special Juan banner get made then?

He's far from awful - he'd produce Chelsea form if used in his best position. And he wasn't awful last night either.

 

[Snow]

Fellaini is probably the worst signing I've seen at United that wasn't immediately ditched. He's had less than 20 games in almost 6 years where he wasn't bad or worse than what we could play instead. He's a big reason why we've resorted to shit football. He's a dirty player, extremely limited and I'll be glad when he gets sold.

I've got nothing bad to say about Mata. His transfer wasn't necessarily a good one because we bought a #10 and played him out right his whole time here which is just a waste for the most part.

So on one hand we've got a player which managers bend over backwards to try and make work and the other was played in positions that wasn't his best and he played much better because he actually knows how to play football.

 

[Tarrou]

Mata

It's not Fellaini's fault whatsoever but he just isn't the right fit for us

 

[KjaAnd]

This.While it would be unfair to call Fellaini a flop...But it’s crystal clear that Matas been the better signing...

Agreed. Mata has scored 32 goals for us and many of those have been important goals. He hasn't lived up to my expectations but he's been more impactful than Fellaini, even if the latter has proven useful at times.