In terms of “footage” I am sure Ronaldo will inspire more than many others too.
Who has had the better international career? Messi or Ronaldo?
- Thread starter tentan
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The thing that is important to understand is that having a better international career doesn't make a player better, doesn't mean luck was not involved, etc. It means what it means.
Was Cristiano Ronaldo lucky that Portugal won the Euros even though he had to leave the field after an injury? Yes. Was Messi a bit unlucky to not have things click for him in a World Cup final? Also yes. Would Messi have a better international career than Ronaldo by a massive distance if things had gone just a little bit differently? Yes.
But things didn't go differently. They happened the way they happened. Sorry, Leo. That's just how things went.
Was Cristiano Ronaldo lucky that Portugal won the Euros even though he had to leave the field after an injury? Yes. Was Messi a bit unlucky to not have things click for him in a World Cup final? Also yes. Would Messi have a better international career than Ronaldo by a massive distance if things had gone just a little bit differently? Yes.
But things didn't go differently. They happened the way they happened. Sorry, Leo. That's just how things went.
again, wonderful post.
sooo, SF and F for previous generation and another SF and F later. that just proves they aren't some minnow that shouldn't be expected to compete when the World Cup starts. yet Argies, despite not having anything since 1993 and that's Copa which you don't seem to rate, are eternal world champions it seems. regardless of their state, regarless of their coach. Portugal, of course, are eternal minnow with no expectations on them.
the thing is, when you're at required level, nobody cares where you were 100 years ago. it's football, not Age of Empires. there are no real expectations from Uruguay today even though they are 2 times world champions, yet there are expectations from Belgium given their talent and players. it's normal and it's the same with Portugal who will be expected to compete again at WC, you can be sure of that. "but he plays for Portugal" argument meant nothing in recent years. you aren't a minnow if you're top 5 European team.
Exactly.
It could have gone very differently for both. Maybe if Spain didn't defeat Pirtugal with an offside goal, Ronaldo would have won the world cup (a very big maybe). At the same time, Messi was very close to winning world cup, but let's not forget that they were lucky against Belgium (Higuain scoring a goal out of nothing), and they scored in the 118th minute against Switzerland. So as easy, Argentina might have been eliminated in 1/8th of the final.
We can imagine what and ifs all day long. In this universe though, things happened as they happened. In the end both ended with a single trophy (one much more difficult than the other to be won), despite that one had a far superior team.
that's a bit harsh on Ronaldo. it's not his fault he had to play Poland and Wales to reach the final.
Or you know Croatia, the same team that won silver in WC two years later.
Same team that destroyed some minions in the process:
But yeah, winning against mighty Bolivia, Peru, Ecuador and Venezuela is a bigger achievement.
He’s the obvious choice. But you’ve also got to factor in Maradona getting to 2 World Cup finals with solid but not great teams and Luis Ronaldo bouncing back from a crazy injury to win the WC (and winning two Copa Americas as well). Zizou and Platini also had great international careers. Romario and Baggio were tremendous for their countries.
I think Messi’s international career has been better than Ronaldo’s, because an international career is about tournament play and Messi has undoubtedly been better in major tournaments, if you watch the games. But whilst they’ve both had very good international careers, everything that they’ve done which is truly iconic has happened for their clubs.
Thus there are many players who I would say have had better international careers, which is odd, because those two are so lauded.
Bouncing back from the injury was an awesome story but that team had also Rivaldo, Ronaldinho, Cafu, Roberto Carlos, Gilberto Silva, Roque Junior, Lucio, Juninho, a young Kaka and young Dida (though they didn't play much) etc. Ronaldo and the first four I mentioned are historical level players, with Ronaldo being one of the greatest No. 9 of all time (probably second best after Pele), Ronaldinho arguably being the third-best No. 11 of all time (after Cristiano and Cruyff), Rivaldo being one of the best 10s ever (in my lifetime probably just second to Messi), Cafu probably being the best RB of all time, and Roberto Carlos being one of the best No. 3 of all time (probably just after Maldini).
It most definitely is, glad we can agree on that at least. they also played Chile, Uruguay and Brazil at Maracana, which makes everything even more special
Tier B teams. Same as Portugal. Same as Argentina (who should have been tier 1).It most definitely is, glad we can agree on that at least. they also played Chile, Uruguay and Brazil at Maracana, which makes everything even more special
Euro 2016:
Portugal 1-1 Iceland
Portugal 0-0 Austria
Portugal 3-3 Hungary (2 goals and 1 assist)
(3 of 4 teams qualified as 3rd was one of the best 3rd places)
Portugal 1-0 Croatia (aet) (1 assist)
Portugal 1-1 Poland (penalties)
Portugal 2-0 Wales (1 goal and 1 assist)
Portugal 1-0 France
WC 2014:
Argentina 2-1 Bosnia-Herzegovina (1 goal)
Argentina 1-0 Iran (1 goal)
Argentina 3-2 Nigeria (2 goals)
Argentina 1-0 Switzerland (aet) (1 assist)
Argentina 1-0 Belgium
Argentina 0-0 Netherlands (penalties)
Argentina 0-1 Germany (aet)
Ronaldo in Euro 2016: Flop, Overrated, Not Important, Pepe and defense were most important
Messi in WC 2014: Amazing, Influential, Decisive, Defense was good but Messi was better
Ronaldo goal involvement: 6 (3 goals and 3 assists) in 9 portuguese goals (66.7%)
Messi goal involvement: 5 (4 goals and 1 assist) in 8 argentinian goals (62.5%)
Messi dribbled more so these similar influences are completely different?
Portugal 1-1 Iceland
Portugal 0-0 Austria
Portugal 3-3 Hungary (2 goals and 1 assist)
(3 of 4 teams qualified as 3rd was one of the best 3rd places)
Portugal 1-0 Croatia (aet) (1 assist)
Portugal 1-1 Poland (penalties)
Portugal 2-0 Wales (1 goal and 1 assist)
Portugal 1-0 France
WC 2014:
Argentina 2-1 Bosnia-Herzegovina (1 goal)
Argentina 1-0 Iran (1 goal)
Argentina 3-2 Nigeria (2 goals)
Argentina 1-0 Switzerland (aet) (1 assist)
Argentina 1-0 Belgium
Argentina 0-0 Netherlands (penalties)
Argentina 0-1 Germany (aet)
Ronaldo in Euro 2016: Flop, Overrated, Not Important, Pepe and defense were most important
Messi in WC 2014: Amazing, Influential, Decisive, Defense was good but Messi was better
Ronaldo goal involvement: 6 (3 goals and 3 assists) in 9 portuguese goals (66.7%)
Messi goal involvement: 5 (4 goals and 1 assist) in 8 argentinian goals (62.5%)
Messi dribbled more so these similar influences are completely different?
Pele was not a number 9
It's Ronaldo.
Argentina are one of the top 2 sides for the Copa every year. They should be winning it more than they have, and the fact that they've won 1 in the last 28 years shows how underwhelming they've been (which includes their players). Also doing the tournament 4 times in 6 years is pretty dumb too.
The Euros is a much harder tournament to win, and the fact Ronaldo did it with an unfashionable side that haven't been a 'big team' on the international stage is an incredible achievement.
Argentina are one of the top 2 sides for the Copa every year. They should be winning it more than they have, and the fact that they've won 1 in the last 28 years shows how underwhelming they've been (which includes their players). Also doing the tournament 4 times in 6 years is pretty dumb too.
The Euros is a much harder tournament to win, and the fact Ronaldo did it with an unfashionable side that haven't been a 'big team' on the international stage is an incredible achievement.
This dumbed down generation of football fans is the first to posit that dribbling in fact doesn’t matter. Gonna have to wake up all the past greats from their graves to tell them that they were wasting their time with the dribbling stuff. Stan Matthews ‘Wizard of Dribble?’ Wizard of pointless activity more like……
this has already been debunked
It really hasn't.
It has
All these uses of stats are just so pathetic. Nothing is being proven. Pick the players you like and enjoy them. The worst is denigrating one of these magnificent players to try and make another look better, it doesn’t work.
Only thing I remember Ronaldo did in this WC is that freekick that hit one-man wall against Germany. I'd say failing to go through WC group, and behind USA of all teams is a much much bigger failure and embarrassing than losing in final
Anyway, top post
Yes it has, and thoroughly. Cf @kc7 ’s post
Both of them ended up with brilliant international careers that still somehow feel a bit disappointing compared to their overall standing in football history. Ideally one of them would’ve had a tournament performance of Pelé/Cruyff/Maradona’s or even Platini’s (Euros) quality to secure the top spot for themselves, but neither one had managed to do it.
Cristiano’s overall influence on Portugal was immense, especially considering his performances in 2004, but he gets way too much credit for the 2016, which wasn’t even his best tournament (and people are actually counting him jumping on the side of the pitch as a huge factor in their win
).
Messi had a more consistent career with less big moments (like the game against Sweden or hat-trick against Spain), although that’s not to say that he didn’t have them.
Still, neither one of them is “clearly” ahead of the other. And for almost every argument that I’ve seen in this thread (friendlies, minnows, relative strength of the tournament) you can find a counter-argument.
Cristiano’s overall influence on Portugal was immense, especially considering his performances in 2004, but he gets way too much credit for the 2016, which wasn’t even his best tournament (and people are actually counting him jumping on the side of the pitch as a huge factor in their win
).Messi had a more consistent career with less big moments (like the game against Sweden or hat-trick against Spain), although that’s not to say that he didn’t have them.
Still, neither one of them is “clearly” ahead of the other. And for almost every argument that I’ve seen in this thread (friendlies, minnows, relative strength of the tournament) you can find a counter-argument.
I read it and it doesn't relate to my point one bit. The Copa is still an easier tournament to win for Argentina than the Euros is for Portugal. That's just a fact.
If you want to see some real debunking posts, feel free to reach out to @Camara who has done a stellar job in separating fact from fiction in this debate.
I like real football which means everything about football in the pitch.
If dribbling was the only thing to measure a player by then Kerlon would be amazing.
Argentina and Portugal reached the finals because of their solid defensive performances and big influences from Messi and Ronaldo.
Yet you use Portugal's main defence quality to say Ronaldo was not relevant for Portugal while ignoring Argentina's main defence quality to say Messi was super relevant.
Now people are bringing up Ronaldo in WC 2014 to show he was poor, he was injured but that doesn't matter.
But this does matter a lot to justify Messi's weak final performance in Copa this year.
People say Ronaldo's goal tally is the result of him playing weak nations left and right but then complain why him scoring a lot more in big games too is meaningless as points are worth the same.
People call Ronaldo the master of penalties when actually he has less penalties scored for the NT as well as lesser % of his goal tally.
Messi and Ronaldo are pretty much the same, they're both exceptional.
Yet the lengths people go to denigrate Ronaldo (way more common than the reverse) is outstanding, it takes a lot of dishonesty and bias to come up with the same nonsensical arguments and strawman .
I'm perfectly fine with someone preferring one or the other because of X or Y but pushing them down on the miniscule (many times false) details is mind boggling.
No. Here’s where you’re wrong and how your post was debunked by kc7’s post. You said this:
“The Euros is a much harder tournament to win, and the fact Ronaldo did it with an unfashionable side that haven't been a 'big team' on the international stage is an incredible achievement.”
Let’s leave aside the notion of the Euros being harder to win (very debatable IMO, and would be for anyone who actually watched the Copa America this year and saw the SA teams kicking lumps out of eachother). Also, the Euros has been won by a number of unfancied teams so how hard is it really? It’s certainly not the World Cup, which is exclusively won by strong teams. But as I said, leaving that aside….
You said ‘Ronaldo did it with an unfashionable team (false, Portugal has a tremendous history in club and international football) that haven’t been a big team on the international stage (false, see above) and that it was an incredible achievement (arguably true, given that it wasn’t a vintage Portugal team, whatever their history).
But it’s true in the same sense that Greece winning the Euros was, or Denmark winning the Euros was, i.e. if Ronaldo was not in the team, it would have been construed as a lucky, one-off win.
Ronaldo’s mere presence in the team has enabled people to construct a narrative that it was because of him that they won (and you also insinuate this), a notion which doesn’t stand up to the slightest probing. Had he won the golden ball and the golden boot, had memorable, iconic performances a’la Van Basten, scored in the final etc, you’d have to construe it as an epic carry job to a title. But that is not in fact what happened.
quite telling that for vast majority of CR fans, his most iconic moment was... not being on the pitch. beautiful.
Not his fault he got injured though.
Argentina had won the Copa America 14 times before Messi and Portugal had won the European Cup 0 times before Cristiano Ronaldo. Anyone trying to argue that Messi winning a Copa America with Argentina wasn't much easier has lost the plot entirely. None of the people making this argument would make the same argument about any other South American player who's won a single Copa America, it is 100% Messi Special Pleading.
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it has though.
It would be hard to construe Portugal winning the Euros as a "lucky one-off" when they were semifinalists and beaten in penalties by EC and WC holders Spain in the previous edition of the tournament.
This is the kind of point that sounds convincing to a person who has no clue about the history of this sport but falls down when you examine it even slightly. The Copa America (formerly the South American Championship) is the oldest senior international tournament in the world (that is still going) and predates even the World Cup by a couple of decades.
The Euros started in the 60s. So since the Euros began and prior to this year, Argentina had won the Copa America……twice. That’s twice in 60 years. So you can point to titles that they won in the 20s and 30s and 40s and claim that this means that they should be winning it easily in 2021, but that’s clearly a nonsensical argument.
Just what the Caf needed, another Messi v Ronaldo thread!
MESSI
Olympics gold+Copa+WC final+another Copa finals (2?).
Olympics gold+Copa+WC final+another Copa finals (2?).
You should be addressing this point to @The Corinthian
Which is it? Are Portugal a football nation with history and pedigree or are they a bunch of plucky underdogs who were carried to a title by Cristiano?
I recall Messi also winning that youth World Cup. And being an instrumental factor in his country doing so. To me it is more or less equal now that messi has won the copa America. Both players won their continent’s major trophy. Some might argue Messi getting to a World Cup final gives him the edge, others might say ronaldo scoring more gives him the edge. Some might say assists or Messi winning best player award at the same World Cup ronaldo played at. So many different ways of looking at it there’s no right or wrong here when it comes to international influence. Whereas at club level the edge is a bit more clear.
Well it depends on the generation doesn't it? Portugal are certainly a bigger footballing nation than Denmark or Greece, but their squad in Ronaldo's prime wasn't their strongest in their history but hardly minnows.
You see, when you just focus on goals or ‘goal contributions’, you can construct any narrative you want. Football is about more than goals. It’s about more than goals and assists. It’s about performances. Allow me to demonstrate how reductive it is to just use a handful of stats:
Major International Knock Out Stage:
Messi / Ronaldo
Games 23 / 17
Goals 5 / 3
Assists 16 / 2
G+A 21 / 5
See how easy that was? Narrative constructed. But you can always do that with stats, especially if you only focus on a one or a few categories.
What’s more concrete is that fact that Messi has performed better in major international tournaments as evidenced by his 3 POTT awards to CR7’s zero.
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Fair. The point is that the team during Ronaldo’s years was better than at any point since the 60s, with especially strong sides at the beginning of his career and latterly (so many stars in the team now, maybe Santos is not the man to get the best out of them….). There was a long time in the middle though where the team was solid but resolutely unspectacular. Definitely was never at the level of Greece though.
It is not debatable at all. It is nowhere near. Since 2002 (when Brazil won the WC), South American teams have been shit. Between them, they have 0 World Cups, 1 finalist and 3 semi-finalists. Compare to Europeans who have 4 World Cups, 7 finalists, and 13 semi-finalists. Yet somehow we are going to believe that the competitions are of the same level.
Let's see what has happened since then when South American nations faced European ones in World Cups.
Brazil:
win 1-0 against Croatia (group stage 2006)
lose 1-0 against France (quarters 2006)
draw 0-0 vs Portugal (group stage 2006)
lose 2-1 vs the Netherlands (quarters 2010)
win 3-1 vs Croatia (group stage 2014)
lose 7-1 vs Germany (semis 2014)
lose 3-0 vs the Netherlands (third place 2014)
draw 1-1 against Switzerland (group stage 2018)
win 2-0 against Serbia (group stage 2018)
lose 1-2 against Belgium (quarters 2018)
Overall record: 3 wins, 2 draws, 5 defeats.
Overall goals: 10 goals for, 17 against
In KO stage: 0 victories, 5 defeats
In KO goals: 3 goals for, 15 goals against
Argentina:
win 6-0 vs Serbia and Montenegro (group stage 2006)
draw 0-0 vs Holland (group stage 2006)
lose in penalties vs Germany (1-1 in regular time) (quarters 2006)
win 2-0 against Greece (group stage 2010)
lose against Germany 0-4 (quarters 2010)
win 2-1 against Bosna (group stage 2014)
win 1-0 against Switzerland (1/8th of final 2014)
win 1-0 against Belgium (quarters 2014)
win in penalties against the Netherlands (semis 2014, 0-0 regular time)
lose 1-0 against Germany (final 2014)
draw 1-1 against Iceland (group stage 2018)
lose 3-0 vs Croatia (group stage 2018)
lose 4-3 vs France (1/8th of final 2018)
Overall record: 6 wins, 2 draws, 5 defeats
Overall goals: 17 goals for, 15 against
In KO stage: 3 wins, 3 defeats
In KO goals: 6 goals for, 10 against
Uruguay:
draw 0-0 vs France (group stage 2010)
lose 3-2 vs the Netherlands (semis 2010)
lose 3-2 vs Germany (third place 2010)
win 2-1 vs England (group stage 2014)
win 1-0 vs Italy (group stage 2014)
win 3-0 vs Russia (group stage 2018)
win 2-1 vs Portugal (1/8th of final 2018)
lose 2-0 vs France (quarters 2018)
Overall record: 4 wins, 1 draw, 3 defeats
Overall goals: 12 goals for, 10 goals against
In KO stage: 1 win, 3 defeats
In KO goals: 6 for, 9 against
Chile:
wins 1-0 vs Switzerland (group stage 2010)
lose 2-1 vs Spain (group stage 2010)
wins 2-0 vs Spain (group stage 2014)
lose 2-0 vs the Netherlands (group stage 2014)
Overall record: 2 wins, 2 defeats
Overall goals: 4 for, 4 against
Paraguay:
lose 1-0 vs England (group stage 2006)
lose 1-0 vs Sweden (group stage 2006)
draw 1-1 vs Italy (group stage 2010)
wins 2-0 vs Slovakia (group stage 2010)
lose 1-0 vs Spain (quarters 2010)
Overall record: 1 win, 1 draw, 3 defeats
Overall goals: 3 for, 4 against
In KO stage: 0 win, 1 defeat
In KO goals: 0 for, 1 against
Colombia:
wins 3-0 vs Greece (group stage 2014)
wins 3-0 vs Poland (group stage 2018)
loses in pens vs England 1-1 regular time (1/8th of finals, 2018)
Overall record: 2 wins, 0 draws, 1 defeat
Overall goals: 7 for, 1 against
In KO stage: 0 win, 1 defeat
In KO goals: 1 for, 1 against
Ecuador:
wins 2-0 vs Poland (group stage 2006)
lose 3-0 vs Germany (group stage 2006)
lose 1-0 vs England (1/8th of final 2006)
lose 2-1 vs Switzerland (group stage 2014)
draw 0-0 vs France (group stage 2014)
Overall record: 1 win, 1 draw, 3 defeats
Overall goals: 3 for, 6 against
In KO stage: 0 win, 1 defeat
In KO goals: 0 for, 1 against.
Aggregate results:
Overall record: 19 wins, 7 draws, 22 defeats
Overall goals: 56 for, 57 against
In KO stage: 4 wins, 14 defeats (!!!)
In KO goals: 23 for, 43 against (!!!)
Essentially, we can pretend that the competitions are the same strengths (cause those teams kick each other), but since Messi and Ronaldo play with their countries, European teams dominate South American teams, and it is not even close. When it matters most (lose or you are out), in 18 matches, the Europeans have win 14 times (78%) scoring twice as much.
Winning Euros is almost as difficult as winning the World Cup nowadays. Because South American teams are a bit shit and irrelevant. When they face European teams, they go home.
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