Who has had the better international career? Messi or Ronaldo?

[Junkrom]

Euro/Copa
World cup

Ronaldo
Competitions played: 9
Goals Scored: 21
Highest ranked team scored against: 2
Worst ranked team scored against: 47
Avg teams ranking: 19,6
Goals vs top 1-10: 9
Goals vs top 11-30: 6
Goals vs top 31-50: 6
Goals vs top 50 or more: 0

Messi
Competitions played: 10
Goals Scored: 19
Highest ranked team scored against: 19
Worst ranked team scored against: 85
Avg teams ranking: 50,7
Goals vs top 1-10: 0
Goals vs top 11-30: 3
Goals vs top 31-50: 7
Goals vs top 50 or more: 9

Ronaldo wins, he even managed to do this with Portugal who is and never was a strong squad compared to Argentina.

 

[JJ12]

Surely you can argue about this in the thread that already exists?

But it's Ronaldo. Messi's international career is by no means bad, but 3 defeats in finals has to count against him.

Don’t really agree with the bolded part. He should have got knocked out earlier like Ronaldo’s teams?

 

[berbatrick]

Well other than an injury time goal in an already finished quarter final tie, he did nothing in this year's Copa knockout stages.

football is a sport that involves looking at your phone and reading goal alerts. there's no actual play. just goals occuring somewhere.

 

[Camara]

Most goals Scored (for his team) 3rd in the tournament

Yes, 4 goals scored. All those in the group stage.
He was one of 5 players to score 4 goals or more.

Most goal involvements (for his team) 2nd in the tournament

2nd most goal involvements?
Hmmm let's check that

Messi 4 goals 1 assist = 5
James 6 goals 2 assists = 8
Muller 5 goals 3 assists = 8

Oh wait already found 2 players with more goal involvement and I barely started (there are more players with more goal involvements too), so your fact is wrong.

Most key passes in the tournament
Most chances created in the tournament
Most successful Dribbles in the tournament
Most Fouled in the tournament
Most MOTM in the tournament
Highest Rated Player in the tournament

Some of these are absolute, which means it depends on the number of games played. A player can barely make a key pass but if he plays a lot of games the numbers will accumulate.
If you look at a per game Messi has more dribbles per game but not key passes per game neither times fouled per game.
Most MOTM yes, equalised with Robben.

I have no data on chances created per game or highest rated (this last one is the most subjective) so I can't comment.

 

[2 man midfield]

Ronaldo

 

[Bole Top]

Don’t really agree with the bolded part. He should have got knocked out earlier like Ronaldo’s teams?

of course. it's always better to lose in early stages so people don't even remember who you lost to. in fact, it's better not to qualify for tournaments at all.

 

[JJ12]

of course. it's always better to lose in early stages so people don't even remember who you lost to. in fact, it's better not to qualify for tournaments at all.

Exactly.

 

[Revan]

as someone else has shared:


Most goals Scored (for his team) 3rd in the tournament
Most goal involvements (for his team) 2nd in the tournament
Most key passes in the tournament
Most chances created in the tournament
Most successful Dribbles in the tournament
Most Fouled in the tournament
Most MOTM in the tournament
Highest Rated Player in the tournament

He was very good in the group stage, I grant you.

In the KO stage though, he did mostly feck all. Assist against Switzerland, barely anything against Belgium, and feck all in the two final matches.

Messi is a player that offers nothing in defense and does not do any pressing. He is a purely attacking player (even more than Ronaldo, who at times decides to defend). He was not threatening at all in the four most important matches. In fact, Argentina reached the final based on their defense (even more than Portugal in 2016). They scored only two goals in the KO stage, in one of which Messi didn't score/assist.

I am sorry if I do not feel impressed by a player who offers nothing in defense/pressing, runs less the goalkeeper but makes only one assist and no goals in the decisive 390 minutes. I watched the WC live, and I thought that everyone, including Messi, found that award weird. Muller and Robben were much more deserving.

BTW, I rate and like Messi. I think he is the best and the greatest player of all time, and comfortably better than Ronaldo. I just think that Ronaldo has had comfortably a better international career, though it might change if Messi wins the World Cup (whom I am kidding though?).

 

[Revan]

Euro/Copa
World cup

Ronaldo
Competitions played: 9
Goals Scored: 21
Highest ranked team scored against: 2
Worst ranked team scored against: 47
Avg teams ranking: 19,6
Goals vs top 1-10: 9
Goals vs top 11-30: 6
Goals vs top 31-50: 6
Goals vs top 50 or more: 0

Messi
Competitions played: 10
Goals Scored: 19
Highest ranked team scored against: 19
Worst ranked team scored against: 85
Avg teams ranking: 50,7
Goals vs top 1-10: 0
Goals vs top 11-30: 3
Goals vs top 31-50: 7
Goals vs top 50 or more: 9

Ronaldo wins, he even managed to do this with Portugal who is and never was a strong squad compared to Argentina.

Let's see how this gets spinned.

 

[Daysleeper]

Fun Fact: I'm originally from the country where Jonestown happened. I know all about the Kool-Aid. I even visited the site where it all went down.

Most interesting fact in this thread (seriously)

 

[Zehner]

Semantics, isn't it? I suppose "greater" is meant in terms of legacy and that definition can vary from person to person. I mean, every young football fan hears the names of players such as Pelé, Maradona, Cruyff, Beckenbauer, etc. and wonders who of them has been the greatest. But for me, that was never so much about their goal records or title cabinets. I would never have put Gerd Müller ahead of Cruyff because he had won more titles and scored more goals. In fact, I didn't even know what each player had won or how many goals they had scored for most of the time.

And thus, I don't care who of both has won more titles or scored more goals, or more goals against better teams or whatever. Thing is, when both are retired and you look at footage of their international careers, I know which player will impress me more - maybe not with same distance as in club competitions but still to a significant margin.

 

[La Vecchia Signora]

This is not a fair argument because messi is from Argentina where when there is a competition like copa America, most people in this world cannot watch it because of the timing. Ronaldo is from Europe so almost the biggest continents watch him. It is all about where they are from. Simples.

Talented wise, there is no argument that messi is more talented than Ronaldo.

 

[MUFC OK]

Ronaldo.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

I would never have put Gerd Müller ahead of Cruyff because he had won more titles and scored more goals.

I don't think anyone thinks Cruyff had a better "international career" than Gerd Muller.

 

[Stacks]

Messi has yet to score a goal in competitive matches vs Brazil or the major european nations (Germany, France, Spain, Italy (never played), Netherlands, England, Portugal).
Against Uruguay he did but only in WC qualifier matches, none in final stages.

I didn't know those games awarded more points

 

[Acheron]

Cristiano Ronaldo

 

[OutlawGER]

Surely you can argue about this in the thread that already exists?

But it's Ronaldo. Messi's international career is by no means bad, but 3 defeats in finals has to count against him.

Surely it should count towards him, beeing in multiple finals compared to losing in group stages, no?

 

[Mr Smith]

Surely it should count towards him, beeing in multiple finals compared to losing in group stages, no?

Don’t really agree with the bolded part. He should have got knocked out earlier like Ronaldo’s teams?

Look, this is not a hill I'm particularly looking to die on, but I guess my reasoning is that the three lost finals represents a pattern. We're judging these players by incredibly high standards, so if we accept the premise that Messi is one of, of not the greatest players of all time, you would have expected his talent to have made a difference in at least one of those three finals, especially with some of the talent he had around him.

I suppose my comparison with Ronaldo is that he's played in far weaker teams that you never expected to win anything in the first place (until very recently).

Basically, Ronaldo overachievers or achieved par what was expected, whereas Messi (particularly in the Copa America) underachieved reletave to expectation.

But again, not a hill I wish to die on. I acknowledge it's a close-run thing. I do also think Messi is better than Ronaldo if that matters at all.

 

[FrankDrebin]

Ronaldo. Won 2 World Cups.

 

[Robertd0803]

Ronaldo has. Because its my automatic answer for anything Ronaldo v Messi.
Not even going to justify why.

 

[wr8_utd]

Don't think either have really had great international careers and performed anywhere close to as well as they can and should.

 

[NasirTimothy]

Don't think either have really had great international careers and performed anywhere close to as well as they can and should.

Basically agree with this. I guess the question should then be: which player has had the best international career in history? As a frame of reference.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

I think both of them have underachieved and see them on the same level.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

Basically agree with this. I guess the question should then be: which player has had the best international career in history? As a frame of reference.

Pele probably.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

They could both have done better but peformance wise it's Messi as he's actually been the most influential player at a few tournaments whereas Ronaldo mostly hangs hit hat on a few moments of goal involvements. Achievement vs expectation wise, it would be Ronaldo hence he gets seen in a better light as be doesn't have expectation levels as Messi and Portugal are seen as a bigger underdog.

But largely it's a pointless and irrelevant argument. They both got the trophies they want (not the WC but still important) and that's good.

 

[Cal?]

Yeah somehow group consisting Chile, Uruguay, Paraguay and Bolivia is cannon fodder.

It obviously is when 4 teams qualify from 5 and we all know how "good" Bolivia is at sea-level.

 

[Cal?]

and how far have Switzerland and Poland gotten in the World Cup? Or wales? Portugal had the easiest bracket of any euro winner of the last 25 years. It goes both ways no matter how much you’d like to pretend otherwise

Conveniently leaving out Portugal beat the 2 teams who contested the WC final 2 years later enroute to winning the Euro.

 

[paraguayo]

They had 4 Copa Americas in 6 years. Its a bit of a joke honestly

 

[kc7]

2 years before their win, in 2014 WC, Portugal could not even pass the group stage and was left behind mighty USA. In 2018 WC, they were eliminated by Uruguay (a weak side in Ronaldo fans' eyes) in the 2nd round. Portugal was eliminated by another "weak side", Chile, in 2017 in Confederations Cup. We see how well Portugal fares against these "weak" American sides.

As for this year, Portugal had comfortably one of the best squads in the EC (better than Argentina), and underperformed with only 1 win in 4 games against Hungary, losing against Germany and Belgium.

 

[Real Name]

It obviously is when 2 top teams qualify from each group plus 4th best 3rd place teams.

Do you see what I did there?

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

Surely it should count towards him, beeing in multiple finals compared to losing in group stages, no?

The issue for Messi is that he plays for Argentina, a team that's actually won these competitions a bunch of times. Argentina reached consecutive Copa America finals in 2004 and 2007 (Messi was in the first team for the 2007 one). The benchmark for success with the Argentinian NT is to actually win the titles, not just to reach finals.

I don't think you can begrudge a player for not winning the World Cup. But it's pretty bad that with 'the best player in the history of the world,' Argentina have won 1 Copa America. During a period where Brazil was not really very strong, and no other South American nations became unbeatable powerhouses. Those titles were there for the taking.

 

[cyberman]

Has to be Ronaldo. He is about to become the highest ever goalscorer in international for feck sake.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

cr7

 

[kc7]

The issue for Messi is that he plays for Argentina, a team that's actually won these competitions a bunch of times. Argentina reached consecutive Copa America finals in 2004 and 2007 (Messi was in the first team for the 2007 one). The benchmark for success with the Argentinian NT is to actually win the titles, not just to reach finals.

I don't think you can begrudge a player for not winning the World Cup. But it's pretty bad that with 'the best player in the history of the world,' Argentina have won 1 Copa America. During a period where Brazil was not really very strong, and no other South American nations became unbeatable powerhouses. Those titles were there for the taking.

Argentina has not won a Copa since 1993, you are talking like Argentina was a regular winner of Copa before Messi.
More importantly, Copa is way more balanced than EC in terms of winners.

Number of Copas in the last 30 years:

Brazil 5

Argentina 3 (1991, 1993, 2021)

Uruguay 2

Chile 2

Colombia 1

So while Brazil & Argentina won 8 titles in total, others won a combined 5 titles in the last 30 years, it is a balanced tournament.

 

[Bole Top]

Argentina reached consecutive Copa America finals in 2004 and 2007 (Messi was in the first team for the 2007 one).

Portugal also reached SF and F in consecutive Euro tournaments (2000 and 2004). why do they suddenly became european minnow when the World Cup starts? because the narrative requires it?

 

[Revan]

The issue for Messi is that he plays for Argentina, a team that's actually won these competitions a bunch of times. Argentina reached consecutive Copa America finals in 2004 and 2007 (Messi was in the first team for the 2007 one). The benchmark for success with the Argentinian NT is to actually win the titles, not just to reach finals.

I don't think you can begrudge a player for not winning the World Cup. But it's pretty bad that with 'the best player in the history of the world,' Argentina have won 1 Copa America. During a period where Brazil was not really very strong, and no other South American nations became unbeatable powerhouses. Those titles were there for the taking.

Exactly. He started playing for them in 2005, and was a starter from after the World Cup 2006, and their main player from the time Riquelme retired (2008).

It took him 16 years to win a trophy (2005-2021). That is longer than in any other period of history for Argentina.

And it is not that the team was bad. From 2006 when he was regular, they still had Cambiasso, Riquelme, Veron, Mascherano, Banega, Di Maria, Tevez, Aguero, Higuain, Lavezzi and so on. Quite a bit better compared to Ronaldo who had Pepe, R. Carvajlo, Figo (up to 2006), Deco (up to 2008), Nani and Simao as his best teammaters (and Bruno in the last competition). Also, Portugal never reached a final without Ronaldo, and Euros are far more difficult than Copa.

 

[Bole Top]

2 years before their win, in 2014 WC, Portugal could not even pass the group stage and was left behind mighty USA. In 2018 WC, they were eliminated by Uruguay (a weak side in Ronaldo fans' eyes) in the 2nd round. Portugal was eliminated by another "weak side", Chile, in 2017 in Confederations Cup. We see how well Portugal fares against these "weak" American sides.

As for this year, Portugal had comfortably one of the best squads in the EC (better than Argentina), and underperformed with only 1 win in 4 games against Hungary, losing against Germany and Belgium.

too much facts for our young CR FlashScore fans, I'm afraid.

 

[RedRonaldo]

Euro/Copa
World cup

Ronaldo
Competitions played: 9
Goals Scored: 21
Highest ranked team scored against: 2
Worst ranked team scored against: 47
Avg teams ranking: 19,6
Goals vs top 1-10: 9
Goals vs top 11-30: 6
Goals vs top 31-50: 6
Goals vs top 50 or more: 0

Messi
Competitions played: 10
Goals Scored: 19
Highest ranked team scored against: 19
Worst ranked team scored against: 85
Avg teams ranking: 50,7
Goals vs top 1-10: 0
Goals vs top 11-30: 3
Goals vs top 31-50: 7
Goals vs top 50 or more: 9

Ronaldo wins, he even managed to do this with Portugal who is and never was a strong squad compared to Argentina.

This seals it. Ronaldo > Messi at international biggest stages.

 

[kc7]

This is the list of teams Portugal had to overcome in EC 2016, the "Portuguese path": Hungary, Austria, Iceland, Croatia, Poland, Wales, France

Here is the list of teams Greece had to overcome in EC 2004, the "Greek path": Spain, Russia, Portugal (home team - beat twice), France, Czech Rep (for many and me, the most impressive team in the tournament)

Hypothetically speaking, I would understand if Ronaldo was a Greek winning EC with Greece and a Ronaldo fan saying that EC is more challenging than Copa with the path Greece followed. It seems like most Ronaldo fans here have the Greek path in mind when comparing Euro to Copa (as a standard/typical path for an eventual EC winner) whereas in reality Ronaldo had the Portuguese path, probably the easiest path ever, an atypical path for a EC winner. Objectively, Greek path>>>>Portuguese path.

Why do I give the example of Greece? Well, because Greece was an underdog like Portugal and many called their win a fluke despite the competition they faced and their two wins against Portugal, the home team. Again, if that’s a fluke, I do not know what to make of Portugal’s win. Portugal could not even dominate its group and finished it as the third out of 4 behind mighty Hungary and Iceland. They won only a single game in full 90 mins. out of 6 games struggling throughout the tournament and “impressing no one”. And in this tournament, Ronaldo was not even the best player of his team let alone the tournament.

Objectively, if you are going to discount COPAs, then you should discount Portugal’s win as well since a typical path a Copa winner follows is probably stronger than Portuguese path in 2016 (though weaker than the Greek path).

As I mentioned before, Portugal was eliminated by Uruguay (in WC 18) and Chile (in Federations Cup in 2017), failed to qualify for the 2nd Round in WC 2014 being left behind USA. That's consistent failure against three supposedly "weak" American sides.

Portugal this year significantly underperformed despite having one of the top squads in the tournament (easily better than Argentina). In 2004, they were an embarrassment with Ronaldo, losing to Greece twice in Lisbon despite having an amazing team and home advantage.

Finally, Ronaldo never won a “best player of the tournament” award in international competitions unlike Messi’s 3 (including 1 WC), and that’s a big minus.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

Argentina has not won a Copa since 1993, you are talking like Argentina was a regular winner of Copa before Messi.

Argentina have won the most Copa America titles along with Uruguay, they are the definition of 'regular winners'. There were 11 years between 1993 and 2004 finals, and 14 between 1993 and Messi's first final. That's nothing as far as international football goes.

Portugal also reached SF and F in consecutive Euro tournaments (2000 and 2004). why do they suddenly became european minnow when the World Cup starts? because the narrative requires it?

Portugal's best WC placement before Ronaldo was 3rd place. With Ronaldo, their best placement was 4th place.
They also reached SF and F in consecutive Euro tournaments with Ronaldo (2012 and 2016) except this time they actually won it, for the first time ever.