Good post.
Who has had the better international career? Messi or Ronaldo?
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I have not ignored every other thing. I have addressed them.
Here, I'll address them again.
In Key Passes Per Game (the way Whoscored actually displays the info), Messi was joint 5th. Shaquiri, de Bruyne, Pjanic, and Muntari were all ahead of him. He was tied with Yaya Toure. The only reason he would he ahead in this stat for the whole tournament is because he played 3 more games than anyone of the aforementioned players. In fact, for these top players, the correlation between their key passes and their minutes is almost perfect. This is probably why the data is offered PER GAME!
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Well we'll need to agree to disagree there then.
Where are these stats from?
Better international career until now has to be Ronaldo. Better goal record with what in my opinion has been a weaker team. He also won the euros.
If Argentina win this WC then Messi takes it though. As much as it pains me to say it, I'd have to concede he's the best ever.
If Argentina win this WC then Messi takes it though. As much as it pains me to say it, I'd have to concede he's the best ever.
Well, at least fanboys are being consistent: they insist on rewriting both the football history they didn't watch as well as what we all saw 8 years ago.
I'm no fan of Maradona, but surely you'd have to agree that since the 80s SOME things have changed in european football competition, and in club competition in general.
I'm no fan of Maradona, but surely you'd have to agree that since the 80s SOME things have changed in european football competition, and in club competition in general.
Someone suggested George Best was better than Messi.
So thought this was the ideal place to ask.
I wasn't born so can't comment but find it hard to believe.
Was Best in his prime better than prime Messi?
So thought this was the ideal place to ask.
I wasn't born so can't comment but find it hard to believe.
Was Best in his prime better than prime Messi?
Used to be Cristiano, but Messi surpassed him.
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Prime Messi scored 73 goals in a single season, and 32 assists. In 60 matches.
yes he was and `I saw him play too. It was an era where the ball was a leather cannon ball and you played in a mud bath. Opponents can do everything apart from kill you. For a lot of times United was a one man team and if Best did not have a good game, United rarely had a good game. He played as a winger yet he scored the most important of goals.
Not taking into account all the awards you are deliberately not counting (like the G/A in world cups, the WC golden ball, the average level of opposition in UEFA vs Conmebol, etc.)
Even then the way you present the data is totally wrong and makes no sense.
Both played 5 to 7 regional cups and won one. It makes no sense your 1/15 to Messi and 1/1 to Ronaldo.
If a country has been historically crap and the other historically good it does not add to the discussion at all.
Sure we can name it all, including all the major ones and the minor ones, but this will take forever, so I only listed out the major ones here, only those with most historical significance.
For example, both of them have over 100+ career records, this thread will take forever to listed them all out one by one for comparison.
Nah I think you missed the point here. Its about how significance are those trophies in relative to their respective club. Its just like saying Maradona winning the only 2 series A titles with Napoli, being more significant to Napoli in relative to someone who won 2 BL titles with Bayern. Its not conclusive for sure but at least worth doing a (bracket) on it.
A mate of mine who watched him every season says that Best was more complete. Also cheeky as hell. Best's prime just wasnt very long. In raw natural ability he was as good as anyone ever.
This should really be the one and only post in this thread…
Yeah Ronaldinho is in that category. Magical during his short prime.
But as you said that only plays a part in the relative importance in their own NT. It has nothing to do with who had the better international career.
No matter how many times I read that stat, it still feels unbelievable
So?
It's not like Messi is playing against a beer chugging amateur these days.
They had footballers smoking and drinking fags back then. Strongest? That's nostalgic talking.
Sure Messi has a great team, but he's winning treble.. it's not like he's winning mickey mouse cup.
I think the point is that Messi played in a super team. But so was Real Madrid. Talking about league titles anyway.
Of course they are related. Maybe you don't agree, which is fine.
For example, I always considered our first league title won by Cantona, has deeper meaning than another other titles we've won afterwards. People could disagree of course, as mathematically they all count as one title.
Which goes back to my original point, winning their only ever major trophy, does look better in CV to me than someone who won a major trophy as part of their 15 wins.
The problem is that he didn't play at all before the knockout stages.
In one sense, he clearly was the player of the tournament (because he ended up grabbing all the headlines and turned into a household name across the world almost overnight) - but it's clearly problematic (unfair, if you will) in another sense.
As for '70...numbers again. The numbers don't matter.
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It's a tough one, Messi was one bottle job away from winning a World Cup final 8 years ago. But then again, calibre he has played with compared to Ronaldo has been vastly different.
Ronaldo however has never made a world cup final compared to Messi's 2 but again, the argument can be made that he has had to deal with much weaker team mates. Its tough but at the end of the day. This final will tell us who has had a better international career, if Messi wins, he beats Ronaldo no matter the goals comparison.
Ronaldo however has never made a world cup final compared to Messi's 2 but again, the argument can be made that he has had to deal with much weaker team mates. Its tough but at the end of the day. This final will tell us who has had a better international career, if Messi wins, he beats Ronaldo no matter the goals comparison.
“Bottle job”
“Much weaker team mates”
No one who actually watches football or has a decent knowledge of their respective teams would argue that though, unless by bottle job you’re referring to Higuain who bottled 3 glaring chances in 3 separate international finals. There was a chap further up the board making that weaker team argument too, who also conveniently ignores the fact that Messi doesn’t get to play Euro qualifiers against semi professional/amateur level sides like Luxembourg, San Marino and the Faroes.
Just updated the post after the Croatia game as some people are quoting it not realising it's pre Croatia...
| Stat | Messi | Ronaldo |
| WC Goals | 11 | 8 |
| WC Non-Penalty Goals | 8 | 5 |
| WC Assists | 8 | 2 |
| WC Goals + Assists | 19 | 10 |
| WC KO Stages Goals | 3 | 0 |
| WC KO Stages Assists | 6 | 0 |
| WC KO Stages Goals + Assists | 9 | 0 |
| WC Player of the Tournament | 1 | 0 |
| WC Average Match Rating | 8.09 | 7.04 |
| Copa/Euros KO Stages Goals | 5 | 3 |
| Copa/Euros KO Stages Assists | 12 | 2 |
| Copa/Euros KO Stages G+A | 17 | 5 |
| Copa/Euros Player of the Tournament | 2 | 0 |
| All Major Tournaments Goals | 23 | 22 |
| All Major Tournaments Assists | 24 | 8 |
| All Major Tournaments G + A | 49 | 30 |
| All Major Tournaments KO Stages G+A | 27 | 5 |
| All Major Tournaments Player of the Tournament | 3 | 0 |
That argument can justify not winning the World Cup. It doesn't really justify not making it past R16 or even out of the group stages.
What about Lewandowski or George best?
Exactly this.
No matter how you look at it, it's a huge failure that Cristiano Ronaldo couldn't lead Portugal past R16, or even advance from the group, in multiple world cups. We are talking about Portugal here, not Costa Rica or Iran.
Zero goal and zero assist in 8 WC knockout games. That is an abysmal record no matter how you look at it.
Regardless what happens on Sunday, Messi clearly has the better international career than Cristiano Ronaldo. It's not even up to debate at this point anymore. Show me one major international tournament in which he performed as well as Messi has in this WC. There is none.
Lewandowski has dealt with far weaker Poland teams for whole his career than Ronaldo. That said, he's badly underachieved in tournaments too. There's no excuse, neither for him nor Poland.
I don't think Messi has ever had such a well rounded team as this current Portugal side, including the two Argentina teams that made the final.
Portugal currently has top players in every position and many of them on the bench. Bernardo Silva, Bruno Fernandes, Joao Felix, Cancelo, Ruben Dias, Palhinha, Vitinha, Otavio, Guerreiro, Nuno Mendes, Leao, André Silva, Ramos, .. their only weak links are one aging CB and an average keeper. One of the strongest squads in the tournament. Probably third best behind Brazil and France altogether.
No, just no.
They were pretty even before this WC, however Messi has now two WC finals and he never played in a well balanced team as Ronaldo did in this one. Stat padding is fine and dandy but if you want to go there, Ronaldo never scored or assisted in a WC KO game. If we're talking about individual performances, the latter never grabbed the best player award in either the WC or the Euros.
Should have Messi changed his nationality just to play the Euros? He won the south-american equivalent, the Copa America in which he was voted best player of the tournament. A trophy Argentina didn't win since 1993, not even with Maradona. It's certainly not the tinpot cup some here make it out to be, without even watching it or understanding how tough it is to win a Copa in this part of the world. This WC has also buried any debate about their respective performances in a WC. Argentina would have never made it this far without Messi, regardless of him winning it or not. A feat that Ronaldo has never even remotely achieved, no matter which team he was playing in.
Talking about the best ever is absolutely pointless and will always boil down to a personal preference. The football, the equipment, the training, the competitions, the teams are so wildly different that any objective comparison between players across different eras simply impossible. A more sensible debate would be who's the best player of this generation. Both have an unprecedented longevity at the absolute top level and trophies galore. Ronaldo has higher goal numbers, Messi the natural talent and overall footballing ability. Does it mean that Ronaldo isn't talented? Of course not. His strengths just lie elsewhere and he made the best out of it. Still a self-centered prick though.
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I don't want to debate the general merits of the post but
Messi was present in about half the Copa Americas that Argentina failed to win. In the meantime it was won by teams that aren't really that great and that Argentina should be beating. It's not like Brazil completely dominated the thing.
I don't want to debate the general merits of your post.
2 World Cup finals, 4 Copa finals for Messi.
More goals + assists.
I don't see Argentina winning the final but despite that Messi by far for me.
He's one who literally drags his team forward.
More goals + assists.
I don't see Argentina winning the final but despite that Messi by far for me.
He's one who literally drags his team forward.
One of the more famous cr7 fanboy once rebuked me by calling me small time for even suggesting that reaching a wc final is a bigger achievement than what cr7 ever done in a wc.
That same fanboy now still insisted that cr7 has a better international career because he won the euros and nations league as those are portugal’s only 2 international titles, then also listed cr7 WC records (scoring in 5 different world cups with a single pen in this one obviously lul) but purposely left out messi’s wc records. What an irony… small time
Its like reaching a wc final meant nothing now, no different from being knocked out in the group stages
Messi
Argentina 86 had Copa Libertadores winners (when Copa Libertadores winners could beat european sides).
No way this side is better individually than Argentina 86.
Messi has had federations bend over rbackwards for him to win something. Copa America every year randomly . Give me a break. I particularly like neither but Messi has had the world of influence on his side since day one. Always protected by the media, runs away to France and protected from running away from challenges, runs away from the national team when he loses yet another copa final and then magically copa every year until Argentina wins. Spare me
80s Serie A was the best league in the world back then, and those are the only league titles Napoli has ever won.
Now we have superteams stad padding against minnows, cause Bosman rule made european football super imbalanced, and the gap between top teams and the rest is bigger than ever.
For all the talks about records, Mbappe and Haaland can surpass Ronaldo and Messi goal records in the UCL, as the UCL will be expanded in the next years, which means more turkish,ukrainian,russian,danish,austrian, etc clubs.
Football existed before the Premier League was created.
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