Why are Pep and Klopp so good?

[PeteManic]

What is that X factor they have that makes them so good?

My hot take is that in their own different ways they are both the perfect modern man managers - both in terms of dealing with players and creating the staff around them.

This might seem obvious, but people seem to think that Fergie's retirement was the end of the man-manager and its all about coaching and systems. And of course it is about that. But the irony is that what makes Pep and Klopp so successful and able to sustain that success is still how they deal with the human beings around them. In other words, football will always be about human qualities: spirit and character and effort and determination and despite all the pizzazz, their ability to tap into that in their players is what makes them stand far above the rest.

 

[Tavern in the town]

Sometimes watching them play you honestly feel like they’ve completed football from a tactical sense. Like what could you actually improve about their structures on and off the ball? They’re compact as hell and have about a hundred methods of chance creation.

 

[USREDEVIL]

The ability to replace their own signings with better ones definitely helps. Oh oh oh, another thing, it seems like they are the leaders of the team and not just "some manager" for the star players. Aka player power isn't a thing.

 

[AshRK]

It's like asking why were messi and ronaldo so good. Klopp and Pep are special managers. Two best in the business. There is no one particular answer to why they are this good.

 

[Sweet Square]

Meh, Klopp has one league title with pool and Pep has yet to win the CL with city.

 

[BayernFan87]

What I find really interesting is that their football got more and more similar in the last years, don't you think?

5 or 10 years ago Pep was all about Tiki Taka and control, even forbidding high/long balls sometimes at Bayern and ordering corners to be played flat to a team mate. Because a normal corner isn't controllable you know. He also disliked passes with too much risk and thus many situations where his teams could have countered faster where played more slowly with more control.

On the other side you had Klopp whose teams where all about high intensity, (gegen)pressing and fast counter attacks. But they lacked in possession and passing.

There's also more little things that are quite similar. The fluid attacks with inverted wingers, the roles of the fullbacks that often drift into the center to prevent counter attacks, etc.


Nowadays both let their teams play super fluid and variable football. With a focus on possession and control but also always using any chance for a quick counter attack or a long ball behind the defense. And both teams play the best (gegen)pressing in the world.


It seems like they elevated each other to new heights by adopting some of the tactics of their opponent.

Really fascinating.

 

[paraguayo]

their teams run much more km than their counterparts

take it as you wish

 

[USREDEVIL]

Meh, Klopp has one league title with pool and Pep has yet to win the CL with city.

glass half empty kind of guy eh?

 

[Mr Pigeon]

Meh, Klopp has one league title with pool and Pep has yet to win the CL with city.

Exactly this. I walked into my bedroom last night and Scarlett Johansson was lying there naked, completely covered in jam. But it was raspberry jam and not strawberry. I did a complete 360 and moonwalked out of the room because she just wasn't worth my three minute marathon.

 

[Idxomer]

PEDs.

 

[Hammondo]

their teams run much more km than their counterparts

take it as you wish

Travel further, not necessarily running.

 

[Hammondo]

Tactical philosophy has just come to a peak, it will change in the future but not for a while.

 

[Abraxas]

It's probably unlikely this can be distilled into one or even two footballing variables that makes them head and shoulders above. There are plenty of good tacticians, plenty of good man managers. I don't personally believe these guys have some magic sauce tactically. Football isn't that complex.Everyone knows what they do, but nobody can replicate their success, so what is behind their influence over players that creates this gap?

At its core level it's probably to do with their force of personality and leadership qualities. Good leadership is in itself rare, it is a tiny fraction of people. A depth of leadership that contains every facet in terms of strategic vision, analytical ability, intelligence, emotional intelligence and being within the top percentiles for all these things would be exceptional. So I have to think that's what we're seeing, truly exceptional leaders.

If Pep wrote a book containing everything he knows about his tactical framework and training methods and handed it to Neil Warnock he'd still be an average manager. If he gave him all his technical staff to help implement it he'd probably still be an average manager. It's about human qualities, I believe. The football is just what they've arrived at through their analytical process and intelligence as suited to current football but that stuff can be copied at will.

 

[Bosnian_fan]

On top of being two most tactically astute managers out there, they also have incredible personality. Their tactical knowledge helps quite a lot too.

Aura of their personality would quickly disperse around them should they become tactically outdated. When Mourinho was tactically on top, he was darling and Special One, when he lost it, he became sore loser. And personality wise, it's not like he extremely changed.

 

[Pearl.Jam]

Meh, Klopp has one league title with pool and Pep has yet to win the CL with city.

That’s the spirit

 

[reddyornot]

Let them take over at Stoke City and see how good they are!.

 

[Sweet Square]

glass half empty kind of guy eh?

High standards tbh. I remember when managers could win league titles with former homeless people and a knock off Dutch techno dj at left back.

Exactly this. I walked into my bedroom last night and Scarlett Johansson was lying there naked, completely covered in jam. But it was raspberry jam and not strawberry. I did a complete 360 and moonwalked out of the room because she just wasn't worth my three minute marathon.

Firstly it’s nice to see someone has morals around here. And maybe it’s unfashionable thing say in today’s world but I don’t think people should be “rewarded” for crimes such as breaking and entering.

That’s the spirit

Carlo is going to end up beating these two football nerds while smoking cigs on the sideline. And the beauty of football will be restored.

 

[Bosnian_fan]

Exactly this. I walked into my bedroom last night and Scarlett Johansson was lying there naked, completely covered in jam. But it was raspberry jam and not strawberry. I did a complete 360 and moonwalked out of the room because she just wasn't worth my three minute marathon.

I like how you subtly did a 360 rather than a 180 turn. We all know what you did there.

 

[Cheimoon]

I like how you subtly did a 360 rather than a 180 turn. We all know what you did there.

It's an absolutely beautiful construct since it's followed by moonwalking. For a moment, I thought I'd have my one Gotcha! moment this year, but no, he was ahead of me yet again.

I don't know what it is with strawberry jam though, although I agree that raspberry jam is too sweet.

Other than that, I suppose it's a combination of being at the cutting edge of tactics and being able to convey that to players and coaching assistants and being a great man-manager. If any of that goes missing, so does the magic, and you get Scarlett Johansson covered in the wrong jam.

 

[The Corinthian]

In the 90s you would have thought the same about Wenger when he joined the Prem.

In the 00s you would have thought the same about Mou when he joined the Prem.

They’re two special managers, but football is constantly shuffling and evolving, and for now, it’s their moment in the sun.

 

[lefty_jakobz]

Pep is at a club that was built with him in mind to take on the job they basically bought all the running gear from Barca and threw a ton of money at it.

Klopp went to Liverpool because our CEO at the time acted like Billy big Bollocks and embarrassed himself and the club ended up chasing him into Liverpools arms.

Also neither team had an idiot named Ed Woodward running the club.

 

[RedRonaldo]

Maybe they simply know/play their football better than anyone else.

 

[padr81]

What I find really interesting is that their football got more and more similar in the last years, don't you think?

5 or 10 years ago Pep was all about Tiki Taka and control, even forbidding high/long balls sometimes at Bayern and ordering corners to be played flat to a team mate. Because a normal corner isn't controllable you know. He also disliked passes with too much risk and thus many situations where his teams could have countered faster where played more slowly with more control.

On the other side you had Klopp whose teams where all about high intensity, (gegen)pressing and fast counter attacks. But they lacked in possession and passing.

There's also more little things that are quite similar. The fluid attacks with inverted wingers, the roles of the fullbacks that often drift into the center to prevent counter attacks, etc.


Nowadays both let their teams play super fluid and variable football. With a focus on possession and control but also always using any chance for a quick counter attack or a long ball behind the defense. And both teams play the best (gegen)pressing in the world.


It seems like they elevated each other to new heights by adopting some of the tactics of their opponent.

Really fascinating.

Great post and I very much agree, City are a lot more direct than Barca or Bayern ever were under Pep and Liverpool are much more City like in their patience and control than they were before they won the title. I think Klopp even remarked on it after the last league match when he said "they played like us and we played like them". In fact Liverpool especially once they are ahead are super patient now, they recycle the ball alot more when nothing is on. City have heavily borrowed their long balls in behind fullbacks too and more direct switching of play.

I think how they get their is slightly different though.
For Liverpool their winger cut narrow and full backs over lap so they often end up.
lb----lw---st---rw---rb
---------cm----cm------

City tend to try and break the same lines but something like
lw--cm--f9--cm--rw
-------lb-------dm------

They both constantly look to create the same overloads in the same slots. Liverpool having the slightly better dribblers and City maybe with slightly better vision. They are becoming more and more alike.

 

[ElCuddlos]

They are clearly both elite managers, 2 of the best we have ever seen. But they are also lucky enough to be at clubs that are willing and capable of shaping the club to their philosophy. The success they have both had clearly gives confidence to the players and staff that their methods work which means everyone is committed to the cause. I think this is what has allowed them both to go the the next level. It is difficult to get elite level players to put their egos to one side and submit to a process/philosophy unless they have 100% confidence that it works.

 

[USREDEVIL]

In the 90s you would have thought the same about Wenger when he joined the Prem.

In the 00s you would have thought the same about Mou when he joined the Prem.

They’re two special managers, but football is constantly shuffling and evolving, and for now, it’s their moment in the sun.

Everyone's a newb until they're not.

 

[city-puma]

Vision and philosophy.
more importantly, their rivalry in EPL. Can ETH joins The rivalry to form something like, Djokvic vs Nadel vs Federa?

 

[tenpoless]

Everyone seems to have forgotten what happened to Liverpool last season.

 

[Lord SInister]

Everyone seems to have forgotten what happened to Liverpool last season.

They were about lose out on top 4 but came back strong. That is what happened, and they had genuine issues like injuries to key players at regular intervals. Still they came back top 4. That is ridiculous mentality, which we sorely lack because our players know only to apologise in social media, as if they are some customer service representative, giving fake empathy.

 

[Lord SInister]

Vision and philosophy.
more importantly, their rivalry in EPL. Can ETH joins The rivalry to form something like, Djokvic vs Nadel vs Federa?

Let's hope he can just change the attitude and vibe of the dressing room. Klopp took years and Pep took billions to build the team they have today, so we need to give ETH a breather and not put too much pressure on him to match City and Liverpool. And let's be honest, ETH isn't in the same level as Pep and Klopp were when they joined EPL. ETH is still a mystery whether he can do it in a big club.

 

[Son]

Pep is at a club that was built with him in mind to take on the job they basically bought all the running gear from Barca and threw a ton of money at it.

Klopp went to Liverpool because our CEO at the time acted like Billy big Bollocks and embarrassed himself and the club ended up chasing him into Liverpools arms.

Also neither team had an idiot named Ed Woodward running the club.

Had Klopp came here I almost guarantee we’d still be sat on 0 Prem titles since Fergie retired regardless.

The problems at our club are far greater than the manager that’s for sure.

 

[RedBanker]

Exactly this. I walked into my bedroom last night and Scarlett Johansson was lying there naked, completely covered in jam. But it was raspberry jam and not strawberry. I did a complete 360 and moonwalked out of the room because she just wasn't worth my three minute marathon.

 

[Strats]

A big part is being able to keep their best players fit and able to play on a high intensity twice a week.

 

[Bebestation]

I used to think Pep was the best but I think Klopp is better now.

He does that annoying thing we used to see in football where the club seems to get lucky.

 

[Spaghetti]

They have surrounded themselves with good teams, who are all on the same page. The pressing game wasn’t Klopps idea, but he implemented it brilliantly. The signings were not his choices, but they signed players who were perfect for his idea.

Also with Klopp, he has the players on his side. A factor in that is something we made fun of - remember when they used to lose games? There was always some ridiculous excuse, it was never the players’ fault. I think this increased their confidence and self belief. None of the losses were because the players were shit.

 

[Longshanks]

Performance enhancing drugs. Honestly especially that Liverpool side, they sprint for 90 minutes then sprint for 90 minutes 3 days later then sprint for 90 minutes 3 days again. They never look tired or jaded apart from last season that is when the rumours were they were off the juice. And they lacked intensity and didn't sprint for 90 minutes constantly.

I think for Pep it's a combination of being a very good coach and a bottomless pit of money. That 60m pound signing not quite working for you? No problem give us a list we will get you another 4 this summer. Noone can compete with that.

 

[VidaRed]

Neither are fit to lace fergie's shoes atm.

 

[Skills]

They're great coaches. They're both also obsessively passionate about the way they believe the game should be played - that rubs off on the players, who find it easy to buy into two quite inspirational managers.

 

[TrustInJanuzaj]

Had Klopp came here I almost guarantee we’d still be sat on 0 Prem titles since Fergie retired regardless.

The problems at our club are far greater than the manager that’s for sure.

You’d be wrong

 

[NoPace]

Meh, Klopp has one league title with pool and Pep has yet to win the CL with city.

Guardiola's football is better for the league, Klopp for the CL. Ferguson had 26 years at United and won 2 CLs and lost 2 finals. I'd guess in the same amount of time, Guardiola, who has 0 wins and 1 finals loss, would end up about the same. The 3 best managers of the Prem era, Wenger and Mourinho fighting for 4th because they couldn't make it last. Not sure who would be 6th, but it's a massive gap and you have to start thinking about Big Sam and Moyes and at that point best to stop.

 

[Lentwood]

What is that X factor they have that makes them so good?

My hot take is that in their own different ways they are both the perfect modern man managers - both in terms of dealing with players and creating the staff around them.

This might seem obvious, but people seem to think that Fergie's retirement was the end of the man-manager and its all about coaching and systems. And of course it is about that. But the irony is that what makes Pep and Klopp so successful and able to sustain that success is still how they deal with the human beings around them. In other words, football will always be about human qualities: spirit and character and effort and determination and despite all the pizzazz, their ability to tap into that in their players is what makes them stand far above the rest.

The first thing to say is that they are elite managers, they have clarity of vision, fantastic tactical acumen and the charisma/personality and emotional intelligence to get the best out of a squad of elite multi-millionaire footballers.

All that being said, and this is absolutely crucial.....they have fantastic backroom teams supporting them, without which they wouldn't be able to be half as successful.

Rangnick talked recently about the English obsession with the 'manager', which he called 'the Cult of the Manager. Article here - https://www.skysports.com/football/...-manager-transfers-and-taking-on-jurgen-klopp

Clearly, Ralf has been reading my posts for years and has taken note, since I have been making this same point now since 2018

The biggest lesson we should have learnt isn't apparent to many posters on here obviously!

It is not all about Klopp - in fact, Klopp is just one piece of the jigsaw! We as fans, as a club, HAVE to get away from this Cult of the Manager that we have been obsessed with for so long.

The point at which Liverpool turned the corner was when they appointed Michael Edwards and his team of analysts to modernise the way they assessed footballers. I remember articles at the time ridiculing the owners and writing supportive articles of Brendan Rogers, claiming Edwards and the infamous 'transfer committee' where undermining him........well look at how badly those articles have aged!

ALL of the players currently tearing it up for Liverpool were recommended and bought in by Edwards and his team. Mane, Salah, Allisson, Wijnaldum, Robertson, Van Dijk, Firminho.....I could go on.....some of the them have been expensively purchased but they all without exception look like fantastic value now. Meanwhile, we have stumbled around making some of the most atrocious signings for huge money in modern history.

What Klopp does at Liverpool is important - but never overestimate the importance of a single manager to Liverpool or Manchester City, for that matter. What they have achieved is down to the modernisation of their structure and the staff they have bought in, often unheralded, who provide critical support for the manager

If you don't understand the above, you won't understand why we have struggled so badly

TLDR - a modern 'manager' is just the cherry on the icing on the cake. We need to stop attributing success or failure solely to the manager.