Why are Pep and Klopp so good?

[Dancfc]

Alisson ans especially VVD fees are heavily inflated by the Coutinho transfer (and the weird VVD bribing saga), don't think that any club were willing to pay those prices they paid at the time, and I don't think any person would consider VVD and Fabinho anywhere near the best players in their positions when they were bought respectively (didn't people mock Liverpool for the VVD fee back then?). Kinda similar to how your world-record GK Kepa was overpaid even at that time because of the Courtois transfer, no?

And it's not like he didn't make the CL final and win the BL ahead of us a few years before that with a Dortmund squad that cost like 50m to build either...

Our 2020 spend was done on the Hazard and Morata money but that was never factored.

Maybe not at the time but in hindsight and how easily they slotted in would be hard to argue against it (Kante isn't a sitting DM no matter how many times the media push it). Before they arrived they conceded comical goals left, right and centre and only just beat a past his prime Wenger then a half arsed Conte to 4th (VVD was even there the second half of the latter season). Getting to the (2018) UCL final was a good achievement but not a measure of week by week consistentcy as we saw by Spurs, Arsenal, Liverpool in 2005 and our previous two final appearances.

Klopp is fantastic but the narrative he's done it (at Liverpool) on strict restrictions couldn't be further from the truth. By the time he got his first piece of silverware all bar about 4 players (and one of them was the #2 keeper) were his which is pretty unprecedented in the modern era.

because he inherited a team in 7th. He got to 2 finals off the bat.
Who is the best DMC?
Did he not get CL before he got the keeper?
When the last time we got to the CL final?
Did he not succeed with Dortmund?

He inherited a team that finished 6th on 62 points the previous season.

Pep who's apparently always inherited the best teams took over a City side that finished 4th on 66 points (and his first job he took over such an incredible set up they finished 10 points behind Villareal).

 

[UpWithRivers]

Luck. Yeah they are the best and a lot of it is down to them but it also requires a huge slice of luck. They need the whole team around them to hit winners left right and center. Liverpool with recruitment for instance selling Coutinho for 120 plus mill and then rarely failing with any signing. Yeah it is coaching etc that helps them but its also luck - even Sir Alex had more failures than Klopp. Guardiola also has the cash behind him. Again Im not knocking these managers Im just saying no matter how good you are it takes a lot if other factors to become this good.

 

[Tavern in the town]

It's probably unlikely this can be distilled into one or even two footballing variables that makes them head and shoulders above. There are plenty of good tacticians, plenty of good man managers. I don't personally believe these guys have some magic sauce tactically. Football isn't that complex.Everyone knows what they do, but nobody can replicate their success, so what is behind their influence over players that creates this gap?

At its core level it's probably to do with their force of personality and leadership qualities. Good leadership is in itself rare, it is a tiny fraction of people. A depth of leadership that contains every facet in terms of strategic vision, analytical ability, intelligence, emotional intelligence and being within the top percentiles for all these things would be exceptional. So I have to think that's what we're seeing, truly exceptional leaders.

If Pep wrote a book containing everything he knows about his tactical framework and training methods and handed it to Neil Warnock he'd still be an average manager. If he gave him all his technical staff to help implement it he'd probably still be an average manager. It's about human qualities, I believe. The football is just what they've arrived at through their analytical process and intelligence as suited to current football but that stuff can be copied at will.

Really interesting, I’ve never really thought about it like this. Does explain how coaches like Arteta and Ten Hag who have seen Pep’s training sessions and methods first hand still aren’t in the same stratosphere as him.

 

[Knux]

The ability to replace their own signings with better ones definitely helps. Oh oh oh, another thing, it seems like they are the leaders of the team and not just "some manager" for the star players. Aka player power isn't a thing.

I think you’re onto something here. For all the praise Salah and De Bruyne gets - I think the real ”stars” of City and Liverpool are Pep And Klopp. No player is bigger than them. They dont rely on a specific player. Can rest 3-4 players from the first team and still win big games.

 

[Durlmints]

All about those dastardly inhalers innit!

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

(and his first job he took over such an incredible set up they finished 10 points behind Villareal).

Villareal finished with 77 points which is pretty impressive. Barcelona also reached the CL semis. He took over a set up with 3 players who'd started the Euros final (and won it) and the #2 ranked player in the world. They were not in good shape but their league position did not reflect their actual quality.

 

[Righteous Steps]

Our 2020 spend was done on the Hazard and Morata money but that was never factored.

Maybe not at the time but in hindsight and how easily they slotted in would be hard to argue against it (Kante isn't a sitting DM no matter how many times the media push it). Before they arrived they conceded comical goals left, right and centre and only just beat a past his prime Wenger then a half arsed Conte to 4th (VVD was even there the second half of the latter season). Getting to the (2018) UCL final was a good achievement but not a measure of week by week consistentcy as we saw by Spurs, Arsenal, Liverpool in 2005 and our previous two final appearances.

Klopp is fantastic but the narrative he's done it (at Liverpool) on strict restrictions couldn't be further from the truth. By the time he got his first piece of silverware all bar about 4 players (and one of them was the #2 keeper) were his which is pretty unprecedented in the modern era.


He inherited a team that finished 6th on 62 points the previous season.

Pep who's apparently always inherited the best teams took over a City side that finished 4th on 66 points (and his first job he took over such an incredible set up they finished 10 points behind Villareal).

Your argument doesn’t really make sense Liverpool aren’t even top 4 in terms of spending power in the last few years. The restrictions are correct he has had to sell big to buy big in the past, in relation to Pep where these restrictions are bought up, Guardiola obviously hasn’t worked under the same parameters. No point of even comparing it to City when two separate managers had won the league with City with a similar group of players before Guardiola came, he then went on to spend probably nearly double the amount Klopp has spent in a similar timeframe.

Also Klopp has already proved that he can win leagues on a modest budget at Dortmund.

 

[BehemothTerror]

PEDS/SHADY ASTHMA MEDICATION :P

 

[Marwood]

I think you’re onto something here. For all the praise Salah and De Bruyne gets - I think the real ”stars” of City and Liverpool are Pep And Klopp. No player is bigger than them. They dont rely on a specific player. Can rest 3-4 players from the first team and still win big games.

Not sure about that.

We saw Liverpool last season without 3 or 4 players and the impact it has.

They're great managers but like every other manager on the planet they need great players to win titles and cups.

I sometimes feel like the praise has gone a little overboard for them.

 

[Cheimoon]

At least it was still jam. When Ole was Scarlett's agent she would frequently sneak into my bedroom and smear marmite all over herself. Personally I love marmite but my wife doesn't, and due to our open relationship with RiP we collectively agreed that if we weren't all involved then no one could be.

I know what you're thinking and I've got that information as well. Under her other agents;

Moyes - Vinegar
Vangle - Skittles peanut butter
Mourinho - the screams of a thousand trapped souls

How do you spread Mourinho's? Cool them until they become liquid, sure, but then if you apply them to the body, it freezes poor Scarlett and they'll evaporate in an instant.

Nothing is ever easy with poor old Mou, is it.

 

[totaalvoetbal]

Club structure, great recruitment, absolute authority and positional play

 

[JDoe]

Our 2020 spend was done on the Hazard and Morata money but that was never factored.

You're going by net spend then? They spent 167m net since Klopp arrived, that's less than half of the league. Coutinho whose fee was used for Allison/VVD turned out to be a flop for Barca but Hazard was arguably even a bigger one for a similar fee no?

Maybe not at the time but in hindsight and how easily they slotted in would be hard to argue against it (Kante isn't a sitting DM no matter how many times the media push it). Before they arrived they conceded comical goals left, right and centre and only just beat a past his prime Wenger then a half arsed Conte to 4th (VVD was even there the second half of the latter season). Getting to the (2018) UCL final was a good achievement but not a measure of week by week consistentcy as we saw by Spurs, Arsenal, Liverpool in 2005 and our previous two final appearances.

How can we evaluate players "in hindsight" but not at the time when they were bought? Who is to say players that are currently kinda mediocre wouldn't have turned out to be great players when playing for a fitting team and manager that utilises them the best? Especially with Klopp, whose players have pretty much all turned out to play much worse when they went to another club bar a very selected few world-class individuals like Lewa? Look at 90% of the old BVB squad or the ex-Pool players that were really good under Klopp (Coutinho, Wijnaldum...) and how their career went...

Klopp is fantastic but the narrative he's done it (at Liverpool) on strict restrictions couldn't be further from the truth. By the time he got his first piece of silverware all bar about 4 players (and one of them was the #2 keeper) were his which is pretty unprecedented in the modern era.


He inherited a team that finished 6th on 62 points the previous season.

Pep who's apparently always inherited the best teams took over a City side that finished 4th on 66 points (and his first job he took over such an incredible set up they finished 10 points behind Villareal).

Not a single manager in the world can turn an unmotivated mediocre football player that does not fit his system into a world-class one. What Klopp does best is building a squad full of players who fit their playing style and make them shine in his system (which is the goal of every manager I think). What differentiates him from pretty much every other manager is that most of his players were hungry and talented individuals that have been bought for still very reasonable fees (Mané, Salah, Firmino, Fabinho, Jota, Diaz, Henderson) or in some cases bargains or youth players (Robertson, TAA, Gomez, Wijnaldum) who are playing at elite or even world-class levels for his club.

Pep is the other manager on the same level currently, but you can't tell me you honestly see Barca/City as the 4th best teams in their leagues when he took over, especially considering their financial prowess back then... Or would you have said last year that PSG are the 2nd strongest team in Ligue 1 because they finished behind Lille?

 

[Stacks]

Our 2020 spend was done on the Hazard and Morata money but that was never factored.

Maybe not at the time but in hindsight and how easily they slotted in would be hard to argue against it (Kante isn't a sitting DM no matter how many times the media push it). Before they arrived they conceded comical goals left, right and centre and only just beat a past his prime Wenger then a half arsed Conte to 4th (VVD was even there the second half of the latter season). Getting to the (2018) UCL final was a good achievement but not a measure of week by week consistentcy as we saw by Spurs, Arsenal, Liverpool in 2005 and our previous two final appearances.

Klopp is fantastic but the narrative he's done it (at Liverpool) on strict restrictions couldn't be further from the truth. By the time he got his first piece of silverware all bar about 4 players (and one of them was the #2 keeper) were his which is pretty unprecedented in the modern era.


He inherited a team that finished 6th on 62 points the previous season.

Pep who's apparently always inherited the best teams took over a City side that finished 4th on 66 points (and his first job he took over such an incredible set up they finished 10 points behind Villareal).

Liverpool were in 8th place when he took over as Suarez departed.
Citypretty much sacked the manager at the halfway point so its understandable they may not be firing on all cylinders, Kompany played 14 league games although they also got to the champions league Semi and finished 2nd the season before. The Barca team he inherited also were in the champions league semis the season before, had Messi entering his prime and he inherited a bulk of the Spain team who had just won the Euros and proven they were some of the best in the world. They lacked motivation yet his team had Henry, Messi, Eto'o, Puyol, Xaxiesta, Yaya Toure etc lets not downplay them now

 

[Dancfc]

Liverpool were in 8th place when he took over as Suarez departed.
Citypretty much sacked the manager at the halfway point so its understandable they may not be firing on all cylinders, Kompany played 14 league games although they also got to the champions league Semi and finished 2nd the season before. The Barca team he inherited also were in the champions league semis the season before, had Messi entering his prime and he inherited a bulk of the Spain team who had just won the Euros and proven they were some of the best in the world. They lacked motivation yet his team had Henry, Messi, Eto'o, Puyol, Xaxiesta, Yaya Toure etc lets not downplay them now

If we dug up posts from 2008 I'd bet my account comments would be closer to laughing at the appointment of a rookie manager with comments akin too "yeah that will sort the 20 point gap on Real" as opposed to "he'll be okay he's got the best players ever"..

 

[Dancfc]

@JDoe for some reason I'm not allowed to quote you.

Hindsight is more for the fans. Scouts and coaches would have seen their level at thay point and so did the selling clubs hence the Kings ransom they all cost. Similar to how proper due dillengence would have shown James was clear of AWB even in 2019 when the near whole non Chelsea football population and even a section of Chelsea fans had the latter infront.

And ofcourse (no one can be successful without players that suit their system) but that's what apparently Pep has to do to "prove himself" and no other big club would have allowed that level of overhaul before he won a trophy regardless of the level of context.

 

[adexkola]

If we dug up posts from 2008 I'd bet my account comments would be closer to laughing at the appointment of a rookie manager with comments akin too "yeah that will sort the 20 point gap on Real" as opposed to "he'll be okay he's got the best players ever"..

Again, I have $200 waiting for anyone who can dig up such a Redcafe post predicting Guardiola's insane success in summer of 2008.

 

[JDoe]

@JDoe for some reason I'm not allowed to quote you.

Hindsight is more for the fans. Scouts and coaches would have seen their level at thay point and so did the selling clubs hence the Kings ransom they all cost. Similar to how proper due dillengence would have shown James was clear of AWB even in 2019 when the near whole non Chelsea football population and even a section of Chelsea fans had the latter infront.

Maybe I'm a bit dense but I'm not sure if I get your point. I don't think anyone's saying this Liverpool doesn't have expensive players, what I am trying to say is that compared to the other big boys, it is nothing extraordinary:

• Manchester City: £808.6m
• Manchester United: £685.0m
• Chelsea: £654.0m
• Liverpool: £565.8m
• Arsenal: £436.3m
• Everton: £336.4m

According to your logic, transfer value is indicative of player potential (which I'd definitely agree on), which means you'd expect this Liverpool to compete for 3-5th place rather than competing against one of the best managers of all time who additionally spends £250m (that's 2 VVDs + 2 Alissons) more on his squad.

And ofcourse (no one can be successful without players that suit their system) but that's what apparently Pep has to do to "prove himself" and no other big club would have allowed that level of overhaul before he won a trophy regardless of the level of context.

I've been thinking most of the (mostly over the top) criticism against Pep is that the players who suit his system tend to be the most technical and also most expensive ones. Klopp has proven that he's able to compete against Pep on a significant lower budget at at times even outdo him like in the CL. Can Pep do the same as Klopp, e.g. competing against a team who has way more financial leeway? Impossible to tell really.

 

[Irwin99]

Club structure, great recruitment, absolute authority and positional play

I think that really is a huge help. They're both fantastic managers, probably the best in the game, but it does help if you've got a great club structure to aid you. As good as they are I doubt they could have worked miracles with a club like United or Spurs.

 

[ThierryHenry14]

• Manchester City: £808.6m
• Manchester United: £685.0m
• Chelsea: £654.0m
• Liverpool: £565.8m
• Arsenal: £436.3m
• Everton: £336.4m

I don't think using transfer value or transfer spending is the right indicator, as I believe Chelsea has a extremely low net spending. Wages however do represent the financial power for a club. I will use total player wages instead.

 

[Offsideagain]

In Guardiola’s case, money. In Klopps case, good coaching, personality and trust in his players.

 

[Long Time Red]

Clearly the original poster hasn't been reading the Rangnick thread.

It's all the players.

Stick Rangnick or Ole in charge of City and Liverpool and it wouldn't make much difference.

If Guardiola or Klopp had taken over instead of Rangnick we still wouldn't have got top 4.

 

[gibers]

In Guardiola’s case, money. In Klopps case, good coaching, personality and trust in his players.

Yes, because Klopp is living off the budget of a corner store

If Pep is just money, why are we not doing as well as City

Some of the comments on here are something else

 

[always_hoping]

Managing well run clubs with clued in football brains on recruitment, transfers in and out plus player contracts.

 

[Gandalf]

Pep - financial doping
Klopp - doping

 

[Leftback99]

Good players who fit how they want to play. We saw last season with a couple of injuries how badly Klopp's team fell away.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

They're great managers but they're also at excellently run clubs.

 

[P0GBA]

The teams they have built are great. Their opponents make it easier for them by trying to replicate aspects of their game such as playing out from the back which only works if you have the right type of goalkeeper and defenders.

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

Klopp and Pep are currently as good as Fergie was at any comparable chunk of Fergies career.

You can’t be that good and there be a ‘template’ or answer to ‘why are they good’.

They’re just perfect at everything. They have the players, with the right attitudes, inside the right systems, with the right facilities, under the right owners. It’s a totality of everything that takes 5 years to build and an insane work ethic to sustain.

I worry my wimpy little heart that Klopp has truly found a home, no job could entice him away. He IS Liverpool and he looks way too happy to want to be anywhere else. Pep will run away at some point.

EDIT : FFS he’s just signed until 2026. Make it stop.

 

[Dan-Utd]

Something I rather love about Pep is that if Manchester City are winning 4-0 and a player makes a mistake - Pep is animated and ruing it... he cares... he wants them to be better... he wants things to be perfect - Although I wonder if that expect of him is what has preventing him winning the CL with City so far, his line up in last years final was unusual to say the least.

Another thing is that at Manchester City and Liverpool you get the idea that if Pep or Jurgen asked to sign Mr Bean - then Mr Bean is who those two clubs would deliver... at Manchester United, Tottenham and Chelsea you will be lucky to get your 3rd choice, (Mr Beans Teddy) - so this is one of the reasons why Pep and Jurgen stand out because not many other managers get those conditions.

You also get the impression that Pep and Jurgen wouldn't stick around if the board started buying players they didn't want, even if it meant they lost money by resigning rather than waiting to be sacked, they have a class about them and wouldn't spend 6 months throwing players under the bus while making snide comments directed at the board.

They also both seem able to be patient and fix the problem properly rather than a half job, for example Jurgen identified the goalkeeping weakness and the central defender weakness at Liverpool, he didn't just go spend big on a random, he was clearly patient and did his homework Allison and Van Dijk to make sure they would fit in with his team in terms of attitude and what he wants from them... a lot of other managers would go on a Football Manager style spending spree and then end up with an unbalanced team, but these two, they can be trusted to spend big money.

It would be nice if in 3 years time we are sitting here talking about Eddie Howe doing something similar at Newcastle, although my one doubt about him is the way that when Bournemouth were in the Championship, he sold Lewis Grabban to Norwich who were in the Premier League, got Bournemouth promoted then wasted a load of money buying Grabban back who had been rubbish in the Premier League for Norwich - on paper it didn't look like it would work and in reality it didn't work so I'd be slightly concerned if he started wanting to sign players he used to manage.

 

[MexicanCowboy]

They are both great coaches but it's not like they have a big secret. If you have a good coach and you give it enough time, good players and enough power in the dressing room he will give you good results.
A lot of top sides often have good players and coaches but the players have more power than the coach so they don't obey him.

 

[Zen86]

They’re both good obviously very good managers. One has a blank chequebook every season and can cycle through players as much as he wants, the other is at a club that’s done incredibly well with their recruitment.

There are always clubs who pull away for periods in the Premier League, however now the PL faces unprecedented strength in comparison to the rest of Europe. Basically the financial disparity between top European leagues means the best team in the PL, will likely be the best team in Europe more often than not.

 

[Trac17]

Good players who fit how they want to play. We saw last season with a couple of injuries how badly Klopp's team fell away.

Good players who fit how they want to play. We saw last season with a couple of injuries how badly Klopp's team fell away.

Yet ended up only 4 points behind 2nd spot. Weren't that far off!

 

[Sylar]

They are both great coaches but it's not like they have a big secret. If you have a good coach and you give it enough time, good players and enough power in the dressing room he will give you good results.
A lot of top sides often have good players and coaches but the players have more power than the coach so they don't obey him.

Was going to say this. Its important. Probably the most important thing.

You need the players to respect the managers authority. This combined with the way they play, you will have players working hard on and off the ball.

 

[TheReligion]

Meh, Klopp has one league title with pool and Pep has yet to win the CL with city.

Yep. People seem to be in absolute awe of the two of them but ultimately that’s the true stat worth looking at.

Obviously both are great but I think posters here are blinded by the football being played and disappointed by our current situation so jump in with two feet. Understandable

 

[bosnian_red]

The rest of the staff and the club structure have an impact of course, but only really to get Liverpool and City to this peak level. The last 5-1% maybe. In reality, wherever Pep or Klopp go they would be successful, just maybe not hit the same peak without the same perfect set up. But they are the current Ronaldo/Messi of managers (for current day and past decade). Sometimes you can try to copy everything the same way, but it just won't stick the same way. Their ideas, their man management, their intuition and adaptability... Mix of everything to just be brilliant coaches. Asking Ole to compete and win the title against them, all else being equal, was like asking Cleverley to outplay Xavi/Iniesta or something. People will continue to forever downplay the impact of managers, but it's the single most important job and a top, top level manager can effectively cover up for an inept structure behind the scenes. Maybe not enough to hit the heights you could otherwise reach, but definitely cover up for a lot of other problems by still getting them to a high level.

 

[bosnian_red]

They are both great coaches but it's not like they have a big secret. If you have a good coach and you give it enough time, good players and enough power in the dressing room he will give you good results.
A lot of top sides often have good players and coaches but the players have more power than the coach so they don't obey him.

It's not a secret but it's not something that can be copied. Otherwise everyone would do it. Yet only they can (current day). They are the 2 greatest coaches of the past decade and for whatever reason, have that perfect mix of all the qualities they need to have to be great coaches. Sir Alex had it too. People shouldn't underestimate the influence someone like that can have, it's more important than any single player that anyone could have. More important than backroom staff, club structure, whatever. The manager/head coach, if he's of the required level (and there most definitely are levels to it just like there are for players), is easily the biggest reason for on the pitch performances.

Part of the reason why I'm not overly fussed with the background stuff at United or why it's not the main problem. Yes it's a mess. Yes we'd improve our chances of we improve that. But if we just get the manager right in the first place (which we have not post Sir Alex), it would cover up a lot of problems anyway and we'd play at a decent level on the pitch IMO. We certainly wouldn't be struggling to reach CL every year, IMO.

 

[NoPace]

Klopp has had multiple + 90pt seasons

He's a brilliant league manager, but he has variance and Guardiola doesn't. His style allows team to sometime match Liverpool or outplay them for 10-15 minutes a half and Pep's doesn't. Conversely, I think Klopp is less likely to say going to lose 5-0 in the CL.

 

[MexicanCowboy]

It's not a secret but it's not something that can be copied. Otherwise everyone would do it. Yet only they can (current day). They are the 2 greatest coaches of the past decade and for whatever reason, have that perfect mix of all the qualities they need to have to be great coaches. Sir Alex had it too. People shouldn't underestimate the influence someone like that can have, it's more important than any single player that anyone could have. More important than backroom staff, club structure, whatever. The manager/head coach, if he's of the required level (and there most definitely are levels to it just like there are for players), is easily the biggest reason for on the pitch performances.

Part of the reason why I'm not overly fussed with the background stuff at United or why it's not the main problem. Yes it's a mess. Yes we'd improve our chances of we improve that. But if we just get the manager right in the first place (which we have not post Sir Alex), it would cover up a lot of problems anyway and we'd play at a decent level on the pitch IMO. We certainly wouldn't be struggling to reach CL every year, IMO.

It's not easy to do it when you have a squad of players that earn over 10 milllion a year. How do you motivate them a keep them fighting for every ball not only depends on your ability as a coach but also on how the players see you in the dressing room. If they truly see you like a boss half the job is done. If they don't you can be a galáctico team but you aren't winning shite.

 

[bosnian_red]

It's not easy to do it when you have a squad of players that earn over 10 milllion a year. How do you motivate them a keep them fighting for every ball not only depends on your ability as a coach but also on how the players see you in the dressing room. If they truly see you like a boss half the job is done. If they don't you can be a galáctico team but you aren't winning shite.

If you have "it", you'll earn their respect. It's not about getting lucky with a group of players who will listen, but managing the changing room to have them respect you. And knowing how to deal with problems. It all comes under what they have to do and is very important. A nobody as a player can make a great coach and manager as he'll just command their respect and win them over. He has to know how to get players on his side. It's not easy, but Pep and Klopp had to start somewhere and Pep especially did it right away at the biggest club around.

 

[Stacks]

He's a brilliant league manager, but he has variance and Guardiola doesn't. His style allows team to sometime match Liverpool or outplay them for 10-15 minutes a half and Pep's doesn't. Conversely, I think Klopp is less likely to say going to lose 5-0 in the CL.

he hasn't every had the players Guadiola has at his dispersal. Notice how Wijnaldum ain't doing nout at PSG. Imagine if Klopp was able to invest 1 billion. His board are tighter than ours but his excellent managment performance allows him to rival a guy that has to buy £1 BILLION in new players. Do you know how much that is?
then the whole beating Bayern to back to back titles and probabaly should have won the CL. when is the last time a German side beat Bayern to a title?
He is brilliant. The closest to SAF.