The second sentence here is exactly why I really want us to sign Toby or Maguire, I actually felt last season that when Bailly was fit and playing we were a lot more adventurous, eg. the liverpool game at old trafford, the first few games of the season.
Why are we buying a CB when it's arguably our strongest position?
- Thread starter Adam-Utd
- Start date
I think Jose is seriously contemplating three at the back formation. You need at least one ball playing centre back for that.
CB is not our strongest position. We have got numbers but the quality is seriously lacking. I would say that it is the case with our entire defensive unit. Our stellar defensive numbers are more a testament to De Gea's quality and our ultra-defensive style of play than an endorsement of our defensive players. We have three decent and consistent performers in Smalling, Valencia and Young. The rest are either inconsistent, injury prone or complete busts. Rojo, Jones, Lindelof, Shaw all need to sold and replaced within the next couple of windows. Also, we need to start to think beyond Young and Valencia. We already got Dalot and now another LB signing should be a priority.
Coming back our CB's, we need a player who is a defensive unit, a decent header of the ball and has good ball skills. None of our 5 CB's possess all the three qualities. Smalling is the only good defender and header of the ball; but on the ball he is truly pathetic. Back in the day he is nothing but a back-up for us. In our current situation he is our best CB. Bailly has promise if he stops thinking he is too cool for school and stops getting injured 3 times in the same game. The less said about the rest the better.
Coming back our CB's, we need a player who is a defensive unit, a decent header of the ball and has good ball skills. None of our 5 CB's possess all the three qualities. Smalling is the only good defender and header of the ball; but on the ball he is truly pathetic. Back in the day he is nothing but a back-up for us. In our current situation he is our best CB. Bailly has promise if he stops thinking he is too cool for school and stops getting injured 3 times in the same game. The less said about the rest the better.
Smalling just had his 2nd best season at the club
While this is true, Toby likes to play long passes from the back. So yes expect to see long balls from him up to Lukaku and Fellaini
Good for him. A player of his quality should be on the bench for United. Shows how far we've regressed.
We're going for 3 at the back it seems and play with wingbacks because our wingers are shit.
Nonsense. The games, or periods within games, where our defenders resorted to just going long as standard were very few and far between. We almost always looked to build play from the back - we struggled to do so effectively all season. There were plenty of gripes last season on here about Smalling’s passing accuracy, Valencia’s negative choice of pass or Pogba and Matic coming too deep to collect the ball. A big feature of our play involved circulating the ball around our overpopulated left side in an attempt to overload that channel, and switching play out to a relatively advanced Valencia when opponents condensed the space.
You then make your notion more ridiculous and contradictory by stating that the reason why we deliberately go long in possession is because everyone is deep and Lukaku is isolated up front. Why would you think that the coaches and team arrived at the conclusion that the best course of action when our defence has possession, our midfield and wide men are in close proximity and our forward is on his lonesome, is to punt it to said forward? Mourinho most certainly has not done so.
We need more CB's to really park the bus this season 
Yes, I think it's very Jose to play 3 at the back... or 5 at the back ... but I sincerely hope not. We'll get overran in the midfield and play too defensive with all those defenders. When you play with an extra CB, it robs from the midfield. I want a LB instead of a CB if i had to chose between them. Where are you Sandro?
I think it's pretty obvious. Our defenders while good are not top, Jose buys were not as effective, i like Bailly, but it's not like he had a great season. So Jose wants to further strengthen the line.
He somewhat understands, that the best chance for CL football is a lot of 1-0 wins. Because it is clear that our attack will most likely suck as it did last year and a year before that. So he can Lingard on the RW. Don't care if our full backs create chances as long as they work at the back and so on.
Depressing? Surely. But does make sense.
He somewhat understands, that the best chance for CL football is a lot of 1-0 wins. Because it is clear that our attack will most likely suck as it did last year and a year before that. So he can Lingard on the RW. Don't care if our full backs create chances as long as they work at the back and so on.
Depressing? Surely. But does make sense.
Fergie sent Beckham on loan to 'toughen him up', nowadays players are sent on loan because their clubs have too many players on the books and can't register them for all competions, it was ironic to hear Jose moaning about the quality of our U-23 team last year (relegated from the top division), while we had TFM, Axel, James Wilson, Sam Johnstone, Andreas Pereira and Cameron Bothwick-Jackson + more on loan.
The loan system is'nt intended to accommodate average players from bloated premier league squads, it should be for the occasional time a player needs something the club can't offer at that time, David Beckham being a great example.
Mate I watched every game last season you're not telling me we often tried to build from the back it didn't happen. Our play went 2 ways, the defender/goalkeeper would hit it long or the times the midfield finally get hold of the ball we play it wide for 90 minutes and hit the box with crosses our play was piss poor the entire year.
It's well known our style of play was atrocious we got criticised by pretty much everybody including most of our own fans.
I really don't know why we are so fixated on a CB, Jose seems to want to buy one each year. Same goes for the Sanchez transfer, if he was bought for the RW, I could understand the logic in the buy but Sanchez demanded the LW, where he is seldom found, roams all over the place except the LW. Personally I think Jose was just out to get one over Pep, Utd were never connected to Sanchez, it was supposed to be a done deal Sanchez to City, till Utd high jacked him at a ridiculous wages. Even Jose said after the purchase of Sanchez "if a player like him becomes available you must try and get him", great strategy when building a team. I somehow got the same feeling with the purchase Fred, City were first interested in him, they were going to purchase him in January now he is a Utd player. I really hope he lives up to his expectations.
Of course we tried to build from the back. United are a strong Premier League team, we aren’t talking about amateur football here.
I agree that our play was mostly piss poor all season, but that doesn’t change the fact that we tried to build play from the back routinely. We were short of ideas and everything was so ponderous.
Our centre halves typically lacked the intelligence, composure and ability to choose and execute the correct pass and adopt the correct supporting positions. An organised shape from our opponents - whether pressing high, sitting back or anything in between - regularly caused us a real struggle in trying to progress the ball. Relatively well co-ordinated pressing most often lead to a total restart (back to De Gea) or a panicked long ball. This is, however, an undesirable outcome and the consequence of poor decisions and an inability to deal with good decisions and play by the opposition. It is, most definitely, not what Mourinho is looking for.
The stronger our defence is the less defensive duties our midfield would need to do, I think that's the only logical explanation to this. Hopefully with Fred coming in and new CB maybe this would release Pogba to play further forward than last season.
Seems like the board agrees.
Spending money on Boateng / Mina would have just been buying for the sake of it.
Spending money on Boateng / Mina would have just been buying for the sake of it.
I've said in other threads that I agree with the board on not backing José with another CB considering they've already bought him two expensive ones which he's already seemingly gone off of, but I did agree with José in that we needed a ball playing CB as urgently as a RW or LB. Even though I'd have preferred a Maguire or someone of that ilk, José now should make do with Lindelof and Bailly and get the best out of them seeing as though he asked for both and Ed delivered.
Make do though?
These are players he gave the okay to sign for big fees at the time. This isnt make do and mend. Its show us why you wanted us to spend big on these players because you havent yet.
That's what I meant! I didn't mean "make do" as a sort woe is me comment. Sorry for the confusion
Ah my bad. Then yes I agree, these are his players and its time to prove themselves
Our cb's are so good that teams were lining up at old trafford to deliver bids for Smalling, Jones and Rojo. Also, 2 defenders for the long run at the club, bought at 22 and 23 years old should also be the ones pulling all the weight at the back. Theres a reason why the best cb's tend to be older.
They need to learn tactical awereness and postioning and that just comes with age or being a phenomenal player. But keep it thinking that we are great defensively .
They need to learn tactical awereness and postioning and that just comes with age or being a phenomenal player. But keep it thinking that we are great defensively .
Have teams been lining up to sign Kompany in the past several years?
When someone is established at a top club theres often no interest because its not going to happen. Despite what posters on here might think or say, we obviously werent going to be selling our best CB.
Is it? Then why did we try to go for Varane? Real Madrid not a top club? Why did we try Godin?
Why Real got Chourtois and was pushing for DDG for years? Weren't they established also? And all the other examples but thank you very much for comparing Smalling to Kompany because they are both bad.
And teams were lining up to buy Mata/Lingard? or Matic/Herrera? That's a ridiculous point to make.
I wasnt aware that Varane and Godin are Kompany of the past 3-4 years where he was the best defender in the leagueIs it? Then why did we try to go for Varane? Real Madrid not a top club? Why did we try Godin?
Why Real got Chourtois and was pushing for DDG for years? Weren't they established also? And all the other examples but thank you very much for comparing Smalling to Kompany because they are both bad.
Maybe that shows that they aren't really at Manchester United level.
Played half of the games or less in the last 3 or 4 seasons or even more = best cb on the premier league. hahaha
premier league 17/18 = 17 apps - 1397 minutes |45% games played
premier league 16/17 = 10 apps - 823 minutes | 27% games played
premier league 15/16 = 6 apps - 363 minutes | 16% games played
premier league 14/15 = 23 apps - 2034 minutes | 60% games played
premier league 13/14 = 28 apps - 2365 minutes | 73% games played
premier league 12/13 = 26 apps - 2239 minutes | 68% games played
premier league 11/12 = 31 apps - 2774 minutes | 82% games played
premier league 10/11 = 37 apps - 3330 minutes | 98% games played
Center back is weekest position in team and most issues originate from there having players who can’t do any sort of team play. Even for defending, if var comes smalling will be sitting out every other game for suspensions, who is supposed to be our best defender.
Or it's just a weak argument that proves nothing of the sorts you claim? I'm sure if we are open to selling any of the 3 mentioned we would sell them for good money, luckily we are not QPR and players rarely want to leave if we want them to stay.
I wasnt aware that quality of defending was based completely on number of appearances.
By that logic Toby is terrible as he didnt play a great deal last season so wasnt an improvement for us.
But yes Kompany was at his best a bit before the 4 years ago I said. That was the end of him being the best. So I should have said 5-6 years ago.
Last season, United had the second best defensive record in the PL. 1 goal behind City. Who are the bestest bestest evoh..etc. We have 5 central defenders. 3 of which just played in the World Cup. 2 of them were brought in by Mourinho. Lindelof was being scouted by lots of top teams and when we got him it was a big coup at the time. All the Portuguese scouts were high fiving each other. Little did we know that Mourinho had no intention of playing him? 35 million on a back up defender? Give the lad a run of games, let him find his form and he could be fantastic. But we will never know if you won't play him. I would also like to add Martial and Shaw to this rant. Give them a chance. Lets see what they can do. We have an amazing squad of players, but if the manager doesn't believe in them, they won't believe in themselves. There really is the bones of a good side here, with lots of different combinations that could work. Just need to have faith.
--------------Lukaku
Martial---Pogba---Fred---Sanchez
--------------Matic
Shaw---Lindelof--Bailly---Dalot
-------------De Gea
Subs Rashford, Lingard, Jones, Smalling, Valencia, Mata, Herrera
---------------Lukaku
Sanchez--Pogba--Lingard--Rashford
---------------Fred
Shaw----Lindelof--Bailly---Dalot
--------------De Gea
Subs Martial, Matic, Mata, Herrera, Jones, Smalling, Valencia,
--------------Lukaku
Martial---Pogba---Fred---Sanchez
--------------Matic
Shaw---Lindelof--Bailly---Dalot
-------------De Gea
Subs Rashford, Lingard, Jones, Smalling, Valencia, Mata, Herrera
---------------Lukaku
Sanchez--Pogba--Lingard--Rashford
---------------Fred
Shaw----Lindelof--Bailly---Dalot
--------------De Gea
Subs Martial, Matic, Mata, Herrera, Jones, Smalling, Valencia,
Put it this way, none of your starting defensive line of 4 would start for Everton. (Not counting Bailey since he's always injured)
Smalling is so dreadful on the ball that it's easier for opposition to press the defenders and force United to play from him. And then there's a fat Luke Shaw and Valencia on the other side who only passes back. You'll need a miracle to get 2nd again next season.
Smalling is so dreadful on the ball that it's easier for opposition to press the defenders and force United to play from him. And then there's a fat Luke Shaw and Valencia on the other side who only passes back. You'll need a miracle to get 2nd again next season.
if Smalling played for West Ham, United would be considering a 50 million bid
What is to say it's not the opposite? That Jose would feel more comfortable pushing the line up and attacking more freely were our defenders better.We need more CB's to really park the bus this season
Didn't LVG also come out and say our defense was not good and that's why he initially tinkered with 3 at the back?
Jones and Young were in England's World Cup squad. Where were Everton's boys?
Our fullbacks are shit as well.
How many great ball players have Utd had at CB in the last 30 years?
Rio, Blanc and Blind to my eyes, and only Rio was good enough defensively to matter, Blanc might have been if he was not ancient. Pallister was good on the ball but at that stage he and Bruce were primarily defensive stoppers. Ronnie Johnsen was solid, Stam was capable but a defender first. Silvestre could hit a ping to the wing, a bit like Rojo, but was erratic. Wes Brown came into the team with a reputation as a ball player but it never really translated, Vidic was functional at best.
Fergie generally had them, even Rio and Blanc in his few games, playing the ball short to Keane, Scholes, Carrick or cycling it as the back. Rarely tasked with any true playmaking duties. Almost feel as if we have started to mythologize this idea of a CB who will be the key to the play.
Rio, Blanc and Blind to my eyes, and only Rio was good enough defensively to matter, Blanc might have been if he was not ancient. Pallister was good on the ball but at that stage he and Bruce were primarily defensive stoppers. Ronnie Johnsen was solid, Stam was capable but a defender first. Silvestre could hit a ping to the wing, a bit like Rojo, but was erratic. Wes Brown came into the team with a reputation as a ball player but it never really translated, Vidic was functional at best.
Fergie generally had them, even Rio and Blanc in his few games, playing the ball short to Keane, Scholes, Carrick or cycling it as the back. Rarely tasked with any true playmaking duties. Almost feel as if we have started to mythologize this idea of a CB who will be the key to the play.
Jose said in his press conference that United are supposed to have some different tactics this year. Last year, he experimented with wingbacks far more than we expected and saw that United did not have the personnel from the CB position.
But I think the press only knew of the CB position throughout the transfer market and ran with it. Maguire, Mina, Toby, Boateng, Godin, etc. The press was leeching onto any CB and trying to find any avenue to link them, desperately, to United. CB is United's deepest position, but it's not enough quality or reliability. Jones and Rojo have been sicknotes. Bailly suffered injuries last season. Lindelof was in his first year. Smalling was the best overall CB but he, like everyone, has their shortcomings for better or worse. Essentially, United played with 2 available players (Lindelof and Smalling), with one of the remaining 3 a rotating door of availability.
With the rumors that Rojo could have joined Everton or Wolves, and he being replaced with another CB, the quality and availability of the CBs would have improved.
But I think the press only knew of the CB position throughout the transfer market and ran with it. Maguire, Mina, Toby, Boateng, Godin, etc. The press was leeching onto any CB and trying to find any avenue to link them, desperately, to United. CB is United's deepest position, but it's not enough quality or reliability. Jones and Rojo have been sicknotes. Bailly suffered injuries last season. Lindelof was in his first year. Smalling was the best overall CB but he, like everyone, has their shortcomings for better or worse. Essentially, United played with 2 available players (Lindelof and Smalling), with one of the remaining 3 a rotating door of availability.
With the rumors that Rojo could have joined Everton or Wolves, and he being replaced with another CB, the quality and availability of the CBs would have improved.
The grass is greener on the other side.