They can all have businesses which I'm sure they do. But do you see Hazard, Salah, KDB, Aguero, Sterling, Bernardo, Kane, Son, Erikson, Silva, Aubamayang etc be as condescending as JLingz and Rashy in their demeanour and posts? I've supported both of them immensely on here and debating with others but there has to be a line somewhere. No one is saying they cant have businesses' but there surely has to be a balance. Hell you don't even see Messi doing the sh!t our lads do and he could probably do/wear/promote almost anything.
Why is our fanbase so toxic towards its players?
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Have you seen Aubamayangs instagram
He would be crucified by our fanbase, you guys who think Pogba is too flashy With regards to Lingard, he is constantly abused for his personality on social media, its no surprised his tone has taken the tone it has, not that I think it should.
As for Rashford, why exactly do fans hate him? Because he isn't Mbappe levels? And why should he be jolly about it?
Seems to me people are expecting to be able to hurl all levels of abuse at players without any repercussions or come back from players.
We all saw what Cantona done to a fan once
Just because we are fans does not give us the right to abuse players, criticise them and their performances ok yes.
Start abusing them for the people they are, especially pertinent when it comes to Lingard, its not cool and they don't have to accept it.
And maybe you should have a read of @Pogue Mahone response rip it to shreds. There's a good lad.
I’ve no idea how you find them condescending. They definitely seem to behave differently to middle aged white guys like me. I find it easy enough not to take that as a personal offence though.
Yeah, yeah, that's how the world works. The old 'guilty until proven innocent' line. Always demonstrates you've got a good handle on things. We've seen, from countless players, outside interests not effecting their game. The burden is on you pal. But we've seen what happens when someone asks you to validate your claim, to actually given some weight to your arbitrary conclusion. See I and others can actually provide some evidence to back up what we are saying. You can't.
Yeah, JLingz is horrible. 'The Guv'nor' on the other hand, is a player in your previous post you've highlighted for his professionalism. You can't even keep your own argument consistent.There's no Mourinho to blame now.
I agreeHave you seen Aubamayangs instagram
With regards to Lingard, he is constantly abused for his personality on social media, its no surprised his tone has taken the tone it has, not that I think it should.
As for Rashford, why exactly do fans hate him? Because he isn't Mbappe levels? And why should he be jolly about it?
Seems to me people are expecting to be able to hurl all levels of abuse at players without any repercussions or come back from players.
We all saw what Cantona done to a fan once
Just because we are fans does not give us the right to abuse players, criticise them and their performances ok yes.
Start abusing them for the people they are, especially pertinent when it comes to Lingard, its not cool and they don't have to accept it.
Why should the players who are being paid millions be immune from criticism?
In my job, if I am not performing ofcourse there will be questions asked.
They are playing for the biggest club in the world, the best facilities, everything they want with 75,000 fans paying top dollar to come watch them play. Which fan is toxic against players when the teams playing well? or even showing effort and trying? Not many.
I do not have any sympathy for the likes of Lingard.. Sanchez.. Martial.. Jones.. - Because they are not doing the club a favour playing for Manutd. If I was an owner of a company and the staff are not pulling their weight - ofcourse they will be critized.
What urks me is going to Everton away and absolutely getting bullied, no heart, no commitment.
In my job, if I am not performing ofcourse there will be questions asked.
They are playing for the biggest club in the world, the best facilities, everything they want with 75,000 fans paying top dollar to come watch them play. Which fan is toxic against players when the teams playing well? or even showing effort and trying? Not many.
I do not have any sympathy for the likes of Lingard.. Sanchez.. Martial.. Jones.. - Because they are not doing the club a favour playing for Manutd. If I was an owner of a company and the staff are not pulling their weight - ofcourse they will be critized.
What urks me is going to Everton away and absolutely getting bullied, no heart, no commitment.
Without wanting to get into a huge back and forth about this, let me just respond to the above with a few bullet points;This is exactly the sort of attitude we hear about Rashford and Lingard when it comes to training, which also explains why they sprint more and run further than almost all their team-mates.
Ashley Young, talking about Rashford.
Mourinho:
Which makes shite of your analogy... (without even getting into the absolute nonsense implying they're on twitter or in the pub when they should be working)
1. I reference Lingard by talking about players launching clothing lines but I don't specifically name Rashford (or Lingard for that matter) It's a general post aimed at pretty much every member of our squad. (The 'box on the head' reference is a little jibe at Eric Bailly, for example). I have gripes with many of them for different reasons, but broadly speaking, I think across the board their attitude could and should be better. Whether that's not flirting with other clubs, whether that's running more on the pitch, whether that's training harder, whether that's not chasing celebrity, whether that's turning up fit and in peak condition....I could go on. Not all apply to each but one or more apply to many.
2. Finding old quotes about Rashford from a teammate and an old manager doesn't disprove or prove anything. I could equally find just as many quotes or stories about how Jose WASN'T happy with Rashford's attitude. But again, we are focusing on specifics here when I am talking generally.
3. I don't actually think our players go to the pub instead of training. It's part of my analogy....I don't know what the footballer equivalent is....maybe something like going out shopping for your 1000th pair of Balenciaga's or playing FIFA. Again, you are focusing on the specific and not the general point being made.
What I would say (and I really don't mean this to sound patronising) is that by continually focusing on the minutia and the minor details, you are missing something that is staring you in the face...i.e. the old analogy 'can't see the wood for the tree's'. The results and the performances tell me that the effort/application/focus CANNOT be there....unless we truly believe that this group of highly-paid International footballers are on a par technically and tactically with the likes of Huddersfield, West Ham, Wolves, Cardiff etc....Any team can lose one game to an inferior side on any given day. To do so over and over again in such a predictable manner and then trot out the same old lines....well I'm sorry but I'm with Roy Keane on this one....they don't really mean a word they say.
By jumping down the the throat of my analogy and saying 'ah well the whole things worthless because Jose once said "XXXXXX about Player Y" two years ago', you massively miss the point
Fired
Ince conduct on the pitch can never be questioned.Yeah, yeah, that's how the world works. The old 'guilty until proven innocent' line. Always demonstrates you've got a good handle on things. We've seen, from countless players, outside interests not effecting their game. The burden is on you pal. But we've seen what happens when someone asks you to validate your claim, to actually given some weight to your arbitrary conclusion. See I and others can actually provide some evidence to back up what we are saying. You can't.
Please can you explain the fact that we covered the least distance on the pitch last season then as per the post i tagged you in? Is this not evidence? or i assume the players were instructed to work less than our opponents every game as a tactical approach, because we as a club are trying to revolutionist modern football by being able to compete whilst playing at walking pace?
What evidence do you have that these distractions do not effect the performance. I am not being funny, only you said you can provide evidence of your argument and so far you haven't. Its funny how the players in our squad who spend the most time outside of football focusing on their 'brand' are the ones who have come in for most criticism in their performance.
Pogba, Lukaku, Martial, Lingard and recently Rashford.
Our best performers this season have been the lads who have kept their heads down and shown a bit of willing. Shaw, Lindelof, McTominay recently.
So what have you got? What is this sought after piece of evidence you have that appears oblivious to the rest of us..... That proves everybody worng..... That proves Lingard, Pogs, Martial, Lukaku are worthy of the shirt, worthy of the money and worthy of the fame and worthy of representing our team.
Which part of the world do you work in? I've worked for two fortune 500 companies, and it's hard as feck to cut/sack employees. Underperformance usually isn't a good enough reason to sack someone.
They won't get promoted/rise through the ranks but sackings are very rare and are usually for gross misconduct.
I am a bit intrigued here, what is this so called "evidence"? Also, you do realise this is a Man United forum and not a job interview for 10 Downing Street, stop speaking like a character from suits ffsYeah, yeah, that's how the world works. The old 'guilty until proven innocent' line. Always demonstrates you've got a good handle on things. We've seen, from countless players, outside interests not effecting their game. The burden is on you pal. But we've seen what happens when someone asks you to validate your claim, to actually given some weight to your arbitrary conclusion. See I and others can actually provide some evidence to back up what we are saying. You can't.
Fair enough. I thought you were specifically referencing Rashford and Lingard because they’re this weeks scapegoats of choice. That’s my mistake.
On the broader point - I’ll stick with your salesforce analogy here - if you have an entire team of sales reps underperforming (which includes individuals who did very well for their previous employer) then you need to ask hard questions of whoever recruited them and managed them.
If you think you can blame it all on spending too much time on twitter or having interests outside football (when you’ve feck all evidence that this is a significant reason for their underperformance) then I’m afraid it’s you who is “massively missing the point”.
I’ve seen 18 people working for a UK based US Fortune 500 company sacked this year for poor performance so it’s not that difficult, only 2 of us left that stared at the same time
Because some of our fans (on here at any rate) are a bunch of feckwits. Sometimes when they post, it's like they are not even trying.
I know the talents of such an accomplished abstract thinker can be better employed, but could you please humor me and just provide some substantiation to your second bullet point. I have no doubt it's a trivial task.
Maybe they're being distracted by off-forum brand business?
Why is everyone talking on here like they are auditioning for a part on Suits haha
A few people need to remove a few poles from a few places and just speak like normal people on a forum, like a political Brexit discussion board on here today.
A few people need to remove a few poles from a few places and just speak like normal people on a forum, like a political Brexit discussion board on here today.
If they are using social media, it's bound to affect their performance, unless they can show proof that it isn't.
We're obviously bad influences on them.
You're definitely a bad influence, with your distracting puns.
Many people on this forum have an unhealthy obsession with:
1) insulting every player who dares hit bad form (I've literally seen every single player, bar Greenwood and some from the academy, get abuse on this forum)
2) deifying transfer prospects (until they inevitably go through bad form and fall into category 1).
1) insulting every player who dares hit bad form (I've literally seen every single player, bar Greenwood and some from the academy, get abuse on this forum)
2) deifying transfer prospects (until they inevitably go through bad form and fall into category 1).
I may be shit but I always try my best. Unfortunately, that's also shit.
I laugh my head off at this thread. We're toxic? What other supposed 'top club' would be as patient with their team as we have been for 6 years? We get told the same generic excuses after every defeat but nothing ever actually changes.
You see what we have put up with, happen at proper top clubs like Real Madrid, hell they start rioting after a few months. They would probably be dismantling the stadium and throwing the chairs at the players by this point.
It's the biggest load of horseshit I've ever heard. We're too patient with the team and look what it's got us. Fans getting bent over by the Glazers with a club full of losers on obscene bloated salaries and the laughing stock of the country.
You see what we have put up with, happen at proper top clubs like Real Madrid, hell they start rioting after a few months. They would probably be dismantling the stadium and throwing the chairs at the players by this point.
It's the biggest load of horseshit I've ever heard. We're too patient with the team and look what it's got us. Fans getting bent over by the Glazers with a club full of losers on obscene bloated salaries and the laughing stock of the country.
Make your mind up. These things either matter or they don't. Lingards conduct on the pitch hasn't been questioned either, not with any level of rationality. Show me the coaches/managers/players that have questioned his commitment. Show me the stats that back this up. You can't. Because he's seen within the game as a consummate professional.
You want me to explain the tactical approach of Jose? A manager that's been working on and off in the league for the past 15 years? Yes there's some attitude problems and fitness issues within the squad, ironically those who have social media and the ones you pinpoint are the least of our concerns. Here's a suggestion. More conflation. Actually look at the individual stats of these players you're bemoaning for a lack of commitment. Look at the Lingard stats and try to justify how your point of view entirely conflicts what the evidence actually tells us.
It's not funny. It's because irrational nonsense is being spouted by posters like you who refuse to actually substantiate their claim. Again, you seem to have this entirely backwards. You need to show me how this arbitrary, unsubstantiated tosh is connected. Not the other way around. We have the opinions and views of the people who work closely with him and his individual stats that back up what o think. It's up to you to show why these aren't correct.
Again, more conflation. I'm not arguing he is 'worthy of the shirt.' Quit with the strawman arguments and address the point actually being discussed.
If a player isn't good enough it isn't exclusively because he's a lazy bastard or social media is affecting his on the pitch performances. Has it ever entered your mind that some players might simply not be good enough? And that however much you dislike how they present themselves in their spare time, it doesn't make a damn bit of difference as to what we see on the pitch?
I can live with bad for,
I see most of the toxicity being aimed at anyone that dares to criticise a united player on this thread - is it turning into RAWK?
There is a certain poster that has taken shots at Greenwood already, claiming that he'll be garbage like Rashford because he missed those chances in his full debut.
This 110%.
We are very very tolerant in comparison to other big clubs around Europe. The players were in fact given a full pass when Jose was sacked. A full pass.
So am I right here (apologies if not as not read the backlog of messages), you're saying Lingard should be judged on his individual stats and not his off the pitch embarrassments (I'm not talking about his brand or fashion things or charity work, talking about his ridiculous videos where he speaks like an absolute turkey, the boxing one thinking he's some sort of gangster and god knows how many others).His individual stats.
What does that even mean?
If we go on his individual stats alone, for a RF or RW they are absolutely woeful, one assist no goals in 2019, Sancho has more goals and assists in one season than I think Lingard has in his career, but you're saying that he should not be criticized because he "runs around a lot", he is an absolute headless chicken when he plays football, arguably one of the worst right wingers we have EVER had.
So your evidence, that backs up your story why he should not be open to criticism is his individual stats, which are absolutely woeful?
If all you are talking about is the fact that he runs a bit, then where do I sign for United because I will happily run around on the right hand side like my life depends on it and pick up 100k a week.
If it is about his work rate, he might be near the top at United (which is not saying much) but I think he would fare pretty poor when it comes to the rest of the league.
IMO Lingard needs booting out of the club ASAP due to the fact that he is an embarrassment to the club online and he is a dreadful footballer.
Question - Do you think he is worthy of a starting or squad place at United? And if so, what are the reasons for this (please don't say he is one of the young lads with potential or because is a fecking local).
Lastly, Suits is a TV show where they can't speak to each other in anything other than Lawyer/Politician OTT jargon
I quit.
I don't even no what a strawman argument is.
It has crossed my mind that they arent good enough. But it has also crossed my mind more pressingly that we don't get 100% from these chumps. The stats back this up. One reason for this this is because they do things to look 'cool' to the FIFA fanboys..... IE practicing celebrations rather than practicing beating the first man on a cross. Taking videos in the dressing room of silly eye patch challenge things rather than focusing on their game. It irks me, it doesn't irk you. I believe it takes their focus away from the common goal, you don't. I believe it makes them look idiotic, you don't.
So i guess we should agree to disagree and leave it where it is.
Good chatting!
That doesn't surprise me. Sadly it was only a matter of time.
Football is a passion for most fans and as it is with emotions being involved, rational thoughts fly out of the window or don't exist to begin with. Once success is lacking, and this fanbase has been spoilt with it, anger will arise and somebody needs to be the target of letting that anger out. The easiest targets are the players on the pitch, whose performances obviously decide the outcome of a game. The foundations of a performance are usually laid out by the manager, who is usually the second target. And if that isn't enough, the people who have assembled the entire team are the new target of anger: Management.
I'm not saying there's just unjustified criticism out there, but often there's an unwillingness to substantiate an opinion with actual facts.
I'm not saying there's just unjustified criticism out there, but often there's an unwillingness to substantiate an opinion with actual facts.
I wouldn’t say I supported them, more like chose them as the lesser of two evils when asked the question.
I also supported City during the title run-in.
I think I need to detox during the Summer!
So no, you're not right, not even close. I suggest you do a little bit of reading.
I'm quite literally saying judge him on his performances. And If you don't think he's good enough, that's fine. Trying to say his external interests is making him a shit player, abusing him because he wore glasses at the legends game, or any other thing posters don't like and they want to someone link to his performances, is not. It isn't a difficult point to grasp.
I know what suits is. I also know what jargon is. This ain't that. I would hope asking someone to validate what they said, isn't too far above your head to be considered OTT jargon.
Then Google it. Them not being good enough is perfectly fine. Them not being good enough because they have their own clothing brand and are active on social media, is not. Particularly when the things you think are suffering because of it are the things they perfect best at, ie workrate.
So you don't want to look at the stats individually and justify why they don't marry up to whatever it is you're trying to say. Fine. Great chat.
The notion that “players don’t give a toss” just because they get a haircut, or post on instagram is quite frankly absurd.
I’d much rather they post on instagram, than go and get absolutely bladdered at the pub stuffing down a chinese on a weekly basis like our old guard did, who were model professionals ofcourse.
Like others have pointed out, are footballers meant to lock themselves in their rooms after traininig/matches and not live life?!
There’s absolutely nothing I’ve seen from our squad on social media that is so proposterous. The fans giving personal and horrible abuse every second of everyday are far worse human beings.
I’d much rather they post on instagram, than go and get absolutely bladdered at the pub stuffing down a chinese on a weekly basis like our old guard did, who were model professionals ofcourse.
Like others have pointed out, are footballers meant to lock themselves in their rooms after traininig/matches and not live life?!
There’s absolutely nothing I’ve seen from our squad on social media that is so proposterous. The fans giving personal and horrible abuse every second of everyday are far worse human beings.
People love the club and pay a lot weekly to support them. This current group of players are out of touch with the fans because of standards set by Sir Alex. The current group have no consistent level and seem to turn up rarely. The level of performances at Old Trafford this season isn't on. A team that progress against PSG away after being 2 down to getting beat 2.0 by a relegated side at home on the last day. Jose definitely created a negative feel around the club and needed the boot. These players went on a good run until Ole signed his contract, they then went back to the same poor performances. Maybe fitness was a part of it but I don't simply buy that complete dip. The fans don't trust them, any time they get beat they come with no response the following game.
There are players that are not good enough and some not giving enough. I find them the most unlikeable group I've watched, they have no fight and seem mentally weak on the pitch. The social media stuff is slightly annoying but it's a generational thing, that's not the issue. It bothers me how or so called big players talk as if they achieved things at Manchester United. Lukaku flirting with other clubs as if he's been so amazing since arriving. Pogba constantly being linked away and never quashing a rumour about his future. Sanchez going through the motions to pick up the cheque. Martial looking like a sulky dickhead disinterested when things aren't good with the team. Players talking and talking about what they are going to do after bad results, show nothing on the pitch then. Fans can deal with poor players and losing as long as there genuine, honest and give everything to win. This group go through the motions at Old Trafford or go down a goal and give up. How can fans not get dissilusioned when we know there is a low level expected and that's not even being delivered. Our player of the season made a mistake days before against Huddersfield and was trotting back to prevent the goal, picks up awards few days later on. Says it all for me really. There are problems like Ashley Young being captain, there is a gap between what's expected and what's being given. Fans haven't turned on Ole, they know a core of these players simply don't care about Manchester United and the frustration is coming out. I still think United fans are respectful in general to the players, they rarely boo the players. They always try and support them, online is skewed perspective of football fans in general. The red cafe is much more reactionary than United fans I know. Everybody seems to be on the same page about who needs to go and the club been run poorly. You want respect from the fans, show us on the pitch you care regularly.
There are players that are not good enough and some not giving enough. I find them the most unlikeable group I've watched, they have no fight and seem mentally weak on the pitch. The social media stuff is slightly annoying but it's a generational thing, that's not the issue. It bothers me how or so called big players talk as if they achieved things at Manchester United. Lukaku flirting with other clubs as if he's been so amazing since arriving. Pogba constantly being linked away and never quashing a rumour about his future. Sanchez going through the motions to pick up the cheque. Martial looking like a sulky dickhead disinterested when things aren't good with the team. Players talking and talking about what they are going to do after bad results, show nothing on the pitch then. Fans can deal with poor players and losing as long as there genuine, honest and give everything to win. This group go through the motions at Old Trafford or go down a goal and give up. How can fans not get dissilusioned when we know there is a low level expected and that's not even being delivered. Our player of the season made a mistake days before against Huddersfield and was trotting back to prevent the goal, picks up awards few days later on. Says it all for me really. There are problems like Ashley Young being captain, there is a gap between what's expected and what's being given. Fans haven't turned on Ole, they know a core of these players simply don't care about Manchester United and the frustration is coming out. I still think United fans are respectful in general to the players, they rarely boo the players. They always try and support them, online is skewed perspective of football fans in general. The red cafe is much more reactionary than United fans I know. Everybody seems to be on the same page about who needs to go and the club been run poorly. You want respect from the fans, show us on the pitch you care regularly.
Mourinho could do nothing with this bunch. Doubt anyone can. Lowest running stats for the highest paid team shows we re not getting a good investment
Love the fact you have bypassed about 3 questions that I asked. As I said, can't be bothered rooting through pages of discussions to find your points, be pretty sad to do that tbh.
Agree his external interests do not make him a shit player, but I would imagine that they do contribute to his negative press, the criticism he receives, the abuse he receives, which I would think leads to his confidence being drained, his head maybe not being in the best place, which could then lead to his performances on this pitch suffering, would you not agree? So his ridiculous actions off the pitch lead to all this negative publicity which could lead to abject performances, as you say I'm sure you can get your head around that? Not a difficult thing to grasp is it lad.
Yeah re Suits, didn't say I didn't understand the points, said why do people feel the need to speak like they have a pole up the arse when on a forum, trying to come across as all intellectual with OTT jargon, seems a bit fake and put on to me, bit sad for a forum but just my opinion, hope you can grasp that lad.