Vapor trail
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- Mar 13, 2022
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Eriksen was a monumental loss the teams performances have taken a nosedive I've been saying this it's very noticeable the games he's in compared to those he's not.
I'd take Sacha Baron Cohen's Bruno over oursWe basically just need to swap our Bruno with the better Bruno.
A few small things -Basic pass completion for our players versus City's.
De Gea 72.0% vs Ederson 85.8%
AWB - 82.8% / Dalot 77.4% vs Walker 86.5%*
Varane - 85.8% vs Dias 92.3%
Martinez - 86.6% vs Stones 94.1%
Shaw - 81.8% vs Ake 90.3%
Casemiro - 77.1% vs Rodri 91.3%
Eriksen - 78.9% / Fred - 79.5% vs Silva 85.3% / Ilkay 85.6%
Bruno - 72.9% vs KDB - 71.4%
Rashford - 75.3% vs Grealish 83.5%
Antony - 76.4% vs Foden - 80.6%
Weghorst - 71.5% / Martial - 80.5% vs Haaland 73.5%
Makes the focus on Bruno's erratic passing specifically seem odd given we rely on him so much for creativity.
In order to improve, the obvious focus should be on the back seven unit (De Gea, RB, Varane, Martinez, Shaw, Casemiro, CM). Partly because they simply make more passes than the front half of the team, partly because improving in those positions would allow us to make changes tactically and play out from the back more. As is we resort to going long a lot more often, which obviously has an impact on our ability to keep the ball overall.
Of that back seven Casemiro, Martinez, Varane and Shaw are the least likely to be displaced and the most likely to "deserve" to be worked around based on other qualities they provide. Which really places heavy emphasis on upgrading De Gea, RB and CM. Because those are the positions in that unit in which you can most painlessly make key upgrades. If we want to get better in possession, that's where we start.
*Worth noting AWB's pass completion, which actually fares quite well considering his reputation for being poor on the ball. The problem with him specifically is the type of passing he does to make up that high completion rate, being the least progressive of our fullbacks.
AWB - 3.19 per 90, 36th percentile.
Dalot - 3.49 per 90, 46th percentile.
Malacia 4.04 per 90, 59th percentile
Shaw - 4.88 per 90, 73rd percentile.
The other fullbacks (in particular Dalot and Shaw) similarly fare better in terms of passes into the opposition third, passes into the penalty area, etc.
Not exactly.I don’t buy our players are technically deficient to even make simple pass. Many teams below us play better than us when it comes to passing. Newcastle and Brighton don’t have better technical players than us. Not saying De zerbi and Howe are better managers than ten hag but they do prioritise this aspect in their coaching. Ten hag isn’t a possession based manager so I guess he doesn’t emphasise on this passing thing that much in his philosophy.
I believe fatigue is a big reason for our passing issues.If we don’t sort this out soon a top 4 position is not guaranteed. We are 2 points ahead of spurs and 5 points ahead of Newcastle with an 8 point lead over Liverpool and by far the worse goal difference of any team.
The passing issue starts from the GK but we’ve missed Eriksen and to a lesser extent Sabitzer, now Casemeiro will be out for another 4 games this is not good ETH has worked miracles but we need 8 wins from 12 games to guarantee CL but more importantly we get at least 10 points from the next 4 PL games; Newcastle(A), Brentford(H), Everton(H), N Forrest(A). We are not scoring enough goals and the squad is threadbare, and completed shattered. We must have 60 points from 30 games
The last 8 games are just as tough with a Spurs away, Brighton away and a rapidly improving Chelsea. We need to navigate Betis on Thursday and then a big win against Fulham next week and hopefully get Martial, Sabitzer, Eriksen back for beginning of April, our passing is an issue but so too is fatigue. International break can’t come quick enough.
We're always going to have a heavy emphasis on transitions due to the strength of some key players, but I don't think it's an either/or situation so much as a spectrum.A few small things -
we actually rely on the CBs, especially Martinez, for direct long balls, a lot more than City. Casemiro too. Bruno does many creative passes, but this is the other common route to goal.
The problem with Bruno is a few different things, not all be captured in this stat: poor under pressure - can't dribble his way out of it. And erratic decision-making, not all missed passes are equal.
Now, you'd hope that a more technical player like Sancho could at least have a more consistent touch and be better under pressure, but he clearly isn't, so Bruno is clearly the only real option at 10. And imo there's no way to play both Bruno and Rashford and not be a transition team - you'd be limiting both of their strengths and highlighting their weaknesses.
I've been trying to find the courage for days now. I hate him as a player and he'd get nowhere near my 1st 11. Nothing to do with him being a bad captain or whatever.If you want to play possession based football it's quite simple, Bruno must be benched or better still, sold.
Simple really. All the Peps in the world couldn't coach our team to become good passers of the ball. At best they keep it safely a la LVG.Because we decided to build our team on technically deficient footballers.
This.Our squad lacks technical ability.
Completely agree. ETH isn't a possession manager and some are hoping he will be. Still looks counter attack/press to me.I'm not even convinced we want to be a possession based team by the way we play. Even when we had Eriksen. We don't set up to control the game and, as others have said, we're looking more of a transition team. Which I have now been told is what Ajax were anyway, so why are we expecting us to control games? Basically, we're seeing a pumped up version of Ole and José's football due to having better players now.
We're literally the only side who I see regularly go against smaller teams who are doing shite, and we invite them into the game by allowing them possession. We then usually give chances away, which they don't convert because they're crap, and we score eventually.
You can't make poor passers good one's magically. Christ.Really disappointed with this aspect of the coaching tbh. Was expecting more.
Agreed. Which is also why ETH is fine with us playing more direct as (like any good manager) he's adapting to what he has.A team with De Gea, Bruno, Fred, AWB and Casemiro will never be a good passing team. Each of them are sloppy and it's part of their game. One or two in the team you can manage but not all of them starting every game.
It also doesn't help when Bruno and Casemiro happen to be our two best playmakers especially with Eriksen out.
Its a fundamentally flawed squad for a team that wants to be possession based.
Who are 3-5 options we could sign in the summer?Our players (collectively) just aren’t good passers. Nobody in that team is a high volume or a high accuracy passer. Have an FBRef search of our 5 central midfielders (Bruno; Eriksen; Casemiro; Fred; McTominay) and I doubt any one of them is higher than the 50th percentile or so in the PL this season for accurate passes. It’s a huge issue.
We are too engrossed in playing transition based football, and that’s mostly because our players only really excel in that aspect of the game.
It is, 100% agree plus the distinct lack of options when you have DVB and Ericsen out for long term injury and now we Have Garnaucho, Martial and Sabitzer still injured and Casemeiro out for 4 games, right now I’d rotate the squad and defintely give players a rest on Thursday.I believe fatigue is a big reason for our passing issues.
Yep, we haven't had a proper 'deep-lying playmaker' since Scholes retired.Just look at our midfielders. Since Scholes and latest since Carrick retired we haven’t had anyone even close to their ball playing ability in midfield. It would be good to finally have someone like them again regardless of which system we want to play.
Also ETH will (need to) find / adapt the right system for us.
We are not Ajax, nor are we in the Dutch league, the PL has a lot of money and therefore also some other very good teams. He can’t just copy what he did at Ajax and hope for the best.
There are also many more ways to be successful than just trying to be Barca lite.
I will leave Madrid out as they always seem to win regardless of the system or strength of their opponents.
But Liverpool’s midfield when they won the league and CL with Klopp was nothing special and their aim seemed to be to get the best out of TAA and their forwards.
Same with Barca under Enrique. Focus was understandably on the forwards much more than midfield.
ETH will only succeed if he finds a formula to implement a successful system which at the same time takes the strengths of our best players into account (at least most of them). Then he can add more of his own players to that (gk, striker and a ball playing progressive midfielder would be top of my list, rb second priority).
Just selling everyone because they are not doing very well or their passing rate is not over 90% is not the solution. Otherwise he would need to start with at least two of his own players (Antony and Case). The less said about WW the better, he is a loan signing and hopefully it stays like this. Hopefully we will also not sign Sabitzer.
I agree with you on this assessment although statistically, Ramos would be the suitable striker in terms of being able to keep possession. Even though Kane has good passing and hold up play, he does lose the ball quite frequently. Dalot is also actually better than Frimpong at keeping possession statistically. Would really love De Jong here too but he doesn't seem interestedI think this is one thing that tilts the balance of signing from Osimhen to Kane. One thing Kane has is, his general passing, holdup is very good and rarely you will see him messing up simple passes or being erratic, which is the case at times with Osimhen.
Plus if we can sign Frenkie alongside Kane it would allow us to dominate the ball in a better way and keep possession.
Next season I would start with this lineup assuming we get our three main targets (Kane, FDJ and Frimpong).
Kane
Rashford Eriksen Antony
FDJ Casemiro
Shaw Martinez Varane Frimpong
This team is more equipped to keep possession and dominate against top teams and hopefully this issue will be minimized.
Yes. The stats have been posted in this thread.Is our passing even that bad?
Those stats and our possession stats show that we're not actually that bad?Yes. The stats have been posted in this thread.
And the add to it our RB and GK especially the latter who I’m sure is low on the scale tooPass completion stats
Bruno - 45 percentile
Eriksen - 28 percentile
Casemiro - 38 percentile
Fred - 41 percentile
None of city main midfielders bar De bruyne are below the 85 percentile. None of Arsenal midfielder are below the 75 percentile bar Odegaard
Where are you getting those statistics from?Basic pass completion for our players versus City's.
De Gea 72.0% vs Ederson 85.8%
AWB - 82.8% / Dalot 77.4% vs Walker 86.5%*
Varane - 85.8% vs Dias 92.3%
Martinez - 86.6% vs Stones 94.1%
Shaw - 81.8% vs Ake 90.3%
Casemiro - 77.1% vs Rodri 91.3%
Eriksen - 78.9% / Fred - 79.5% vs Silva 85.3% / Ilkay 85.6%
Bruno - 72.9% vs KDB - 71.4%
Rashford - 75.3% vs Grealish 83.5%
Antony - 76.4% vs Foden - 80.6%
Weghorst - 71.5% / Martial - 80.5% vs Haaland 73.5%
Makes the focus on Bruno's erratic passing specifically seem odd given we rely on him so much for creativity.
In order to improve, the obvious focus should be on the back seven unit (De Gea, RB, Varane, Martinez, Shaw, Casemiro, CM). Partly because they simply make more passes than the front half of the team, partly because improving in those positions would allow us to make changes tactically and play out from the back more. As is we resort to going long a lot more often, which obviously has an impact on our ability to keep the ball overall.
Of that back seven Casemiro, Martinez, Varane and Shaw are the least likely to be displaced and the most likely to "deserve" to be worked around based on other qualities they provide. Which really places heavy emphasis on upgrading De Gea, RB and CM. Because those are the positions in that unit in which you can most painlessly make key upgrades. If we want to get better in possession, that's where we start.
*Worth noting AWB's pass completion, which actually fares quite well considering his reputation for being poor on the ball. The problem with him specifically is the type of passing he does to make up that high completion rate, being the least progressive of our fullbacks.
AWB - 3.19 per 90, 36th percentile.
Dalot - 3.49 per 90, 46th percentile.
Malacia 4.04 per 90, 59th percentile
Shaw - 4.88 per 90, 73rd percentile.
The other fullbacks (in particular Dalot and Shaw) similarly fare better in terms of passes into the opposition third, passes into the penalty area, etc.
And that's a problem. We're still way too direct, we still aren't good enough at retaining the ball under pressure, and concede control against just about any technically proficient team because of being careless with the ball or always trying to force the counter-attack. We cannot reliably control games even against the bottom half of the table. It's part of the reason why we rarely have the sort of easy, comfortable wins like Arsenal's win at Fulham on Sunday.We're a very direct team
This is why ETH wanted De Jong. Fred/Mctomminay are simply not good enough for retaining any sort of possession. Casemiro can only do so much running the midfield on his own. We need a top class carrier of the ball in midfield who can also control a game. Eriksen injury didn't help either.And that's a problem. We're still way too direct, we still aren't good enough at retaining the ball under pressure, and concede control against just about any technically proficient team because of being careless with the ball or always trying to force the counter-attack. We cannot reliably control games even against the bottom half of the table. It's part of the reason why we rarely have the sort of easy, comfortable wins like Arsenal's win at Fulham on Sunday.
Having both Casemiro and Eriksen available helps but even with them we can expect to have only 30-40% possession against our strongest rival. Passing teams to death is a necessary tool for a top team and as long as we don't have it, we have a ceiling. Our average possession is 52% but there's a chasm between us and the top 5 (Chelsea are 5th with 58.1%). We need to improve by quite a bit.
And that's a problem. We're still way too direct, we still aren't good enough at retaining the ball under pressure, and concede control against just about any technically proficient team because of being careless with the ball or always trying to force the counter-attack. We cannot reliably control games even against the bottom half of the table. It's part of the reason why we rarely have the sort of easy, comfortable wins like Arsenal's win at Fulham on Sunday.
Having both Casemiro and Eriksen available helps but even with them we can expect to have only 30-40% possession against our strongest rival. Passing teams to death is a necessary tool for a top team and as long as we don't have it, we have a ceiling. Our average possession is 52% but there's a chasm between us and the top 5 (Chelsea are 5th with 58.1%). We need to improve by quite a bit.
I think it’s more fair to judge this from next season. There’s at least the spine of a team now that we know ETH likes:Really disappointed with this aspect of the coaching tbh. Was expecting more.
Fbref. They'll have updated with this weeks' games since.Where are you getting those statistics from?
Yes indeed. Big loss.Eriksen was a monumental loss the teams performances have taken a nosedive I've been saying this it's very noticeable the games he's in compared to those he's not.