Why is the classic number 10 fading into irrelevancy ?

Luke1995

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Why the game does not favor players like Ozil/Riquelme/Veron anymore ? Is it just becoming increasingly too fast for a more slow paced build-up to take place or is it a tactical change ?

Also, who are some of the best to ever play in that position and why some had greater lenght of sucess than others ?
 
Remember when they were all the rage and Fergie was called tactically outdated for not having one. We got Kagawa and then Mata and they both underperformed.

Come to think of it we haven't caught up to any tactical trend in almost 10 years. 2019 and we still don't pass from the back.
 
Greck said:
Remember when they were all the rage and Fergie was called tactically outdated for not having one. We got Kagawa and then Mata and they both underperformed.

Come to think of it we haven't caught up to any tactical trend in almost 10 years. 2019 and we still don't pass from the back.
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I never thought of passing from the back as something that should be done. Keepers are supposed to send the ball as far away from their net as possible
 
IMO back in the old days most players used to look for the number 10 and the entire structure was built around them, it started with Pelé I guess, but nowadays guys like Ozil are left in their own instead of having that system
 
I think its because the two centre midfielders have gotten deeper to counter the classic 10, so the space isn't there anymore. The space is out wide because full backs are more attacking these days, so the 10 type players are becoming inverted wingers instead
 
Same reason why elite teams don't usually employ pure target strikers or old-fashioned defensive stoppers anymore — there's not a whole lot of room in the elite rungs of the contemporary game for purists and rigid specialists that don't contribute in multiple phases of the game and can be isolated by the opposition, and that idea trickles down because managers are copycats. Football is increasingly predicated on greater-than-the-sum-of-parts cohesiveness and homogenized teamwork, everyone pulling their own weight for the most part, and a certain sense of organised predictability in terms of pressing opposition defenses for short-route goals with a vigorous and fast approach where a great deal of build-up by an orchestrator-in-chief isn't required.

With regard to the stereotypical work-shy #10 in particular, teams can no longer carry their complement of luxury players with lackadaisical defensive attitudes in a crucial part of the pitch because that would be ceding numerical advantage, defensive frameworks are more well-drilled and compact...and teams are more adept at suffocating spaces between the lines where that profile of player would usually operate, and there's a renewed emphasis on attack through the wings and inside channels to take advantage of the spaces outside/behind the opposition defense (evidenced by the increased importance of wingbacks and wide forwards or inverted wingers) — which limits the time and space a typical enganche would have to ruminate on the ball.

What you have instead are registas who can influence things from a deeper position where space isn't always as congested, False 9s or dynamic second-strikers that knit the attack together further up the pitch and are a more direct presence around (or inside) the box, or 10/8/wide-attacker hybrids who are more well-rounded, industrious and obviously versatile than a classic 10 (like De Bruyne, Eriksen, Bernardo). Those that don't keep up with the micro-trends in the game are always discarded because they're surplus to needs (at least in the short to medium term).
 
Luke1995 said:
Why the game does not favor players like Ozil/Riquelme/Veron anymore ? Is it just becoming increasingly too fast for a more slow paced build-up to take place or is it a tactical change ?

Also, who are some of the best to ever play in that position and why some had greater lenght of sucess than others ?
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Why risk everything for 1 single player, when you can have a working system that relies on 11 players. It's easier to find 11 players for a good system than finding 1 number 10 to built your system around him.
 
Invictus said:
Same reason why elite teams don't usually employ pure target strikers or old-fashioned defensive stoppers anymore — there's not a whole lot of room in the elite rungs of the contemporary game for purists and rigid specialists that don't contribute in multiple phases of the game and can be isolated by the opposition, and that idea trickles down because managers are copycats. Football is increasingly predicated on greater-than-the-sum-of-parts cohesiveness and homogenized teamwork, everyone pulling their own weight for the most part, and a certain sense of organised predictability in terms of pressing opposition defenses for short-route goals with a vigorous and fast approach where a great deal of build-up by an orchestrator-in-chief isn't required.

With regard to the stereotypical work-shy #10 in particular, teams can no longer carry their complement of luxury players with lackadaisical defensive attitudes in a crucial part of the pitch because that would be ceding numerical advantage, defensive frameworks are more well-drilled and compact...and teams are more adept at suffocating spaces between the lines where that profile of player would usually operate, and there's a renewed emphasis on attack through the wings and inside channels to take advantage of the spaces outside/behind the opposition defense (evidenced by the increased importance of wingbacks and wide forwards or inverted wingers) — which limits the time and space a typical enganche would have to ruminate on the ball.

What you have instead are registas who can influence things from a deeper position where space isn't always as congested, False 9s or dynamic second-strikers that knit the attack together further up the pitch and are a more direct presence around (or inside) the box, or 10/8/wide-attacker hybrids who are more well-rounded, industrious and obviously versatile than a classic 10 (like De Bruyne, Eriksen, Bernardo). Those that don't keep up with the micro-trends in the game are always discarded because they're surplus to needs (at least in the short to medium term).
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This was a great read, thanks for sharing your knowledge with us!

Definitely seems like the game back in the 60's until the 80's wasn't evolved enough to the point where these number 10's could be isolated from the game through tactical approachs, and from the 90's onwards that evolution in the game started happening slowly and it's peaking now, which basically explains why Ozil in particular has been declining with each passing season as he has less space to run into. It will be fascinating to see how the game will look like in the upcoming decade and what type of players will have the most influence.
 
I don't think in European football anyway, that there ever really was a romantic purists era or decade where the stereotypical idea of the 10 was a dominant tactical trend across leagues. There has always been a tension between the idea of the luxury attacking\between the lines player that doesn't pull his weight off the ball or just can't defend well and overall team tactical cohesiveness\defensive solidity.

A lot of players from 70s-80s-90s that get described as 10's when you actually dig into their career were very often playing in flat midfield 4's or Dutch influenced 3's with a good bit of defensive work involved(and having their detractors for not being good at it), or as the Italians did with BAggio, Mancini, Zola, Totti or often with Maradona, Platini, Zico, Laudrup and others when they played there they became the supporting forward line player that dropped back. there really weren't a lot of protected Riquelme stroller types with things being specifically built for them around at any stage in the bigger clubs...they often didn't fit and got moved on after a season or two.
 
Greck said:
Remember when they were all the rage and Fergie was called tactically outdated for not having one. We got Kagawa and then Mata and they both underperformed.

Come to think of it we haven't caught up to any tactical trend in almost 10 years. 2019 and we still don't pass from the back.
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We were not ahead of the game, we just missed the bus, because back then #10s were actually doing well and we should've been playing with one, now they've become futile and we're still where we were.
 
The game has evolved. We now play with attacking full back and wing forward. Traditional winger role isn’t relevant anymore (hence we have moved Young and Valencia to full back), and center midfielders need to take up defensive role too. If play as forward, the no.10 has to score a lot of goals.
 
Iniesta provided the blueprint for the evolution of the 10, which is a kind of 8/10 hybrid. If you want to enjoy playmaking in the centre, you have to put in some midfield graft.

David Silva is an excellent example for other feather weight 10s that it is quite achievable with the right mindset.
 
Very unfashionable position at the moment but in five, ten years may come back. Football, like fashion, is cyclical. I'm personally hoping the mullet comes back soon.
 
RedRonaldo said:
The game has evolved. We now play with attacking full back and wing forward. Traditional winger role isn’t relevant anymore (hence we have moved Young and Valencia to full back), and center midfielders need to take up defensive role too. If play as forward, the no.10 has to score a lot of goals.
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Which is a terrible mistake if said full backs cannot provide any attacking threat
 
B20 said:
Iniesta provided the blueprint for the evolution of the 10, which is a kind of 8/10 hybrid. If you want to enjoy playmaking in the centre, you have to put in some midfield graft.

David Silva is an excellent example for other feather weight 10s that it is quite achievable with the right mindset.
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Silva is more of a number 8 than a 10. De Bruyne is more of a #10 than him. The idea of flying full backs isn't that new, just more mainstream. Brazil had Roberto Carlos and Cafu during the 90s and 2000s. I think that the problem that a club like United have is an absence of identity, both in regards to playing style and philosophy of the club.

You cannot call yourself:
1. A club with class
2. A club that prioritises youth
3. A club that is pride of the north

When you have someone like Ed Woodward at the helm and especially when he refuses to relinquish any power.

Getting back to the idea of number 10s, Veron was not one. He was a cross between a #6 and #8. Unfortunately, he was a bit ahead of his time as the Premiership was too fast. But his arrival did lay the foundation of our 2008 team
 
Saying number 10’s are dead in a world that has David Silva, Christian Eriksen, Lionel Messi etc doesn’t seem right to me...

Personally feel like the number 9 is the “dead” role these days.

Number 9’s these days play more like 10’s, and the 10’s have the skill of wingers. Football has changed.
 
Depends on period you're looking at to be honest.

The last 2 seasons have seen basically no number 10s used with most big teams pushing them into the old CM role.

I personally believe it's due to more emphasis on ball retention, accuracy of passing, pressing as a unit and finally a reduction on the emphasis of size and strength.

Ball retention and accuracy of passing are both qualities that a #10 would be typically adept at. This growing trend in the game has meant a greater need for players of that ilk.

Pressing as a unit requires players that are able to work throughout the game and not leave gaps where the typical #10 would be wandering and saving energy.

And finally the reduction of size and strength sees these hybrid 10s able to play deeper, where previously they would have been overcome with more physical players, they are now able to play their game with protection from referees.

In years gone by, both D.Silva and B.Silva would be playing as #10 for City, now however they can comfortably play in CM and dictate the play.
 
Demyanenko_square_jaw said:
I don't think in European football anyway, that there ever really was a romantic purists era or decade where the stereotypical idea of the 10 was a dominant tactical trend across leagues. There has always been a tension between the idea of the luxury attacking\between the lines player that doesn't pull his weight off the ball or just can't defend well and overall team tactical cohesiveness\defensive solidity.

A lot of players from 70s-80s-90s that get described as 10's when you actually dig into their career were very often playing in flat midfield 4's or Dutch influenced 3's with a good bit of defensive work involved(and having their detractors for not being good at it), or as the Italians did with BAggio, Mancini, Zola, Totti or often with Maradona, Platini, Zico, Laudrup and others when they played there they became the supporting forward line player that dropped back. there really weren't a lot of protected Riquelme stroller types with things being specifically built for them around at any stage in the bigger clubs...they often didn't fit and got moved on after a season or two.
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True. If anything the greater emphasis on possession and attacking football enables more inside-forward types to find a home in the current game. After all 4-2-3-1 can squeeze three of them onto the park at the same time. For instance, I can't see a top national team doing now what Italy did in 1970 when they alternated between their two 10s in Rivera and Mazzola. Or what Sacchi did in 1994 almost reluctantly including Baggio in his team of grafters, and sacrificing him when a man down to Norway when they had to win. And from that era there were so many 10s who were part of flat midfield fours, like Savicevic at Milan or Hoddle for England, and their performance suffered to some degree as a result. If anything it may have been a tougher era to shine in as a creative.

Right now the elite clubs' use of 4-3-3 means any 10s can become 8s, false 9s, or if they have certain physical attributes, wide forwards. But either way they dominance of attacking football allows them to slip into these positions and, provided they have some work rate, that is an easier process than was the case in previous eras when there was more second balls, poorer pitches, etc.
 
Veron was never a 10 what is this argument? Even Fergie couldn't get him to play where he wanted on the pitch it is well documented
 
Left centre mid or left wing (dependent on speed largely). If you can’t play either of those, you will struggle to survive at the top.*

The average 10 simply doesn’t offer a good enough output to justify their role. They are usually the most talented in the team, and there was a time their flicks and tricks and silky touches were greater currency than they are now. Then Ronaldo came along and for me, initiated a shift in focus from beauty to stats. Now you either need enough work rate to fit in a middle three, or enough speed (and goals) to fit in a front three.
 
For the same reason out and out poachers are fading away. Both poachers and no.10s are luxury players.

A player like Solksjaer would be nowhere near a top side nowadays.

In a game that is becoming more and more athletic all the time, teams struggle when carrying these types of player.
 
The position has evolved, just like the full backs, centerbacks and wingers. Some 10s went with time, like David Silva or Modric and some didn't, like Özil.

The typical skill set of a typical number 10 is more important than ever. I mean, there used to be only one player of that type, now you occasionally see 3 or sometimes even 4 of them in one team.
 
Zehner said:
The position has evolved, just like the full backs, centerbacks and wingers. Some 10s went with time, like David Silva or Modric and some didn't, like Özil.

The typical skill set of a typical number 10 is more important than ever. I mean, there used to be only one player of that type, now you occasionally see 3 or sometimes even 4 of them in one team.
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You do, but they are often far more athletic, faster and can play wide or through the middle.

Bernardo Silva for example.
 
WolfInSharp'sClothing said:
You do, but they are often far more athletic, faster and can play wide or through the middle.

Bernardo Silva for example.
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There were always different types of 10s though. Some of them were great and quick dribblers others focused more on passing. Nowadays they either play as 8s, inverted wingers or in very rare cases false 9s, usually depending on what they are best at. Kroos, Modric and Neymar exemplarily would all be classic 10s a few decades ago, yet they've got very different skillsets, just like some of the most iconic 10s in history (e.g. Maradona, Platini and Cruyff). So they move into different positions where their skills can be of use. The position doesn't exist anylonger but the typical abilities of a 10 are more demanded than ever.

That being said, Özil isn't slow either, probably faster than both Silvas. He simply didn't adapt from a tactical standpoint and definitely much more agile than many world class CMs like Rakitic, Kroos, Alonso etc.
 
Zehner said:
That being said, Özil isn't slow either, probably faster than both Silvas. He simply didn't adapt from a tactical standpoint and definitely much more agile than many world class CMs like Rakitic, Kroos, Alonso etc.
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That, or he just can't be arsed.
 
I think traditionally the number 10 role was seen as the creative cog of the team. The guy who could thread the balls through. Nowadays you have deeper lying midfielders who can also create like Pogba/Erikisen. Also you see many more teams now playing 3 in the center of midfield not to get overrun.
 
Invictus said:
Same reason why elite teams don't usually employ pure target strikers or old-fashioned defensive stoppers anymore — there's not a whole lot of room in the elite rungs of the contemporary game for purists and rigid specialists that don't contribute in multiple phases of the game and can be isolated by the opposition, and that idea trickles down because managers are copycats. Football is increasingly predicated on greater-than-the-sum-of-parts cohesiveness and homogenized teamwork, everyone pulling their own weight for the most part, and a certain sense of organised predictability in terms of pressing opposition defenses for short-route goals with a vigorous and fast approach where a great deal of build-up by an orchestrator-in-chief isn't required.

With regard to the stereotypical work-shy #10 in particular, teams can no longer carry their complement of luxury players with lackadaisical defensive attitudes in a crucial part of the pitch because that would be ceding numerical advantage, defensive frameworks are more well-drilled and compact...and teams are more adept at suffocating spaces between the lines where that profile of player would usually operate, and there's a renewed emphasis on attack through the wings and inside channels to take advantage of the spaces outside/behind the opposition defense (evidenced by the increased importance of wingbacks and wide forwards or inverted wingers) — which limits the time and space a typical enganche would have to ruminate on the ball.

What you have instead are registas who can influence things from a deeper position where space isn't always as congested, False 9s or dynamic second-strikers that knit the attack together further up the pitch and are a more direct presence around (or inside) the box, or 10/8/wide-attacker hybrids who are more well-rounded, industrious and obviously versatile than a classic 10 (like De Bruyne, Eriksen, Bernardo). Those that don't keep up with the micro-trends in the game are always discarded because they're surplus to needs (at least in the short to medium term).
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Great post but the last sentence comes across as a bit of a leap. The game evolves as do players. There's no need to discard anybody with quality.

PS. What is a regista?
 
blue blue said:
Great post but the last sentence comes across as a bit of a leap. The game evolves as do players. There's no need to discard anybody with quality.

PS. What is a regista?
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Clearly someone hasn't played Football Manager before :lol:

A regista is a more aggressive version of a deep lying playmaker who presses the opposition when they have possession.
 
I think it’s more to do with the high octane pressing game of modern day English football, which at times resembles Ice hockey.

Hoddle and Brady were both fantastic players, but that type of player wouldn’t get a kick in 2019.
 
Less space, more dynamic players. Look at the pass von James against Qatar. This is a perfekt situation for him (and other classic 10s). Almost a standard situation in front of the box: static, enough room and time. How often do 10s get in these situations in modern football? Not really often. Thats why James played deeper (8) under Heynckes and Pirlo (6) under Ancelotti. Another way is to put your playmaker on the winger position, if he is fast enough (Özil, Ribery, Messi, Silva).
 
I really don't know why this keeps cropping up. To play a classic 'No.10' you have to play two up front and the other one would need to be a 'classic' No.9. Back in the day it was usually in a 4-4-2.

The 'classic no. 10' doesn't exist in a 4-3-3 or variants of. Neither does the classic No.9.

Three interchangeable forwards, with movement, where they take turns in being the 'No.10' and the 'No.9'.....and one other as well. Two centre backs will struggle against that system. It makes a 'back four' have to adapt.....and that's kind of the point.
 
@Invictus has already posted a good explanation but in addition, my thinking (nowhere near as well researched/thought out!) is that;

I suspect the gap between 'elite' players and the rest was probably bigger 10+ years ago (Messi & Ronaldo notwithstanding), therefore a highly-technical but lazy and/or physically inferior #10 could still add great value with their goals/assists contributions

Nowadays it's evident that small, weak, slow footballers like Mata end up contributing less than the sum of their parts because the flaws outweigh the benefits i.e. they look nice on the eye and will occasionally produce a moment of magic but can't counter attack and can't press, therefore weakening the collective unit
 
Lentwood said:
@Invictus has already posted a good explanation but in addition, my thinking (nowhere near as well researched/thought out!) is that;

I suspect the gap between 'elite' players and the rest was probably bigger 10+ years ago (Messi & Ronaldo notwithstanding), therefore a highly-technical but lazy and/or physically inferior #10 could still add great value with their goals/assists contributions

Nowadays it's evident that small, weak, slow footballers like Mata end up contributing less than the sum of their parts because the flaws outweigh the benefits i.e. they look nice on the eye and will occasionally produce a moment of magic but can't counter attack and can't press, therefore weakening the collective unit
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Well it depends on tactic though, Pep makes two so called "nr 10s" work in midfield 3.
 
Jacckk1985 said:
Well it depends on tactic though, Pep makes two so called "nr 10s" work in midfield 3.
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They aren't 'classic' #10s though as compared to the examples given in the OP....when I think of a #10, I am thinking of a Riquelme, a Deco, an Ozil, a Mata, a Di Canio, a Cantona, a Bergkamp, a Guti etc.....not saying all of these players play in exactly the same way as they evidently don't - but they did like to occupy the space between midfield/forward and create from deep. They all also lacked defensive/physical abilities to a certain degree

I would say the closest City have is David Silva....De Bruyne and Bernardo Silva are more 'all-rounders' for me
 
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