Why is this current England team so much better than the failed ‘Golden Generation’?

[NasirTimothy]

This has probably been discussed before, but it’s again time to take England’s so-called Golden Generation to task in the light of the current crop’s success at back to back major international tournaments.

So why are they much better than the Scholes, Rooney, Lampard, Gerrard and Beckham vintage?

Is it because those guys were overrated big time Charlies who all thought they were Diego Maradona?

Is it because the FA chose foreign managers like Sven and then Cappello to manage the team? (please try and reign it in, xenophobes….)

Is it because they insisted on putting all the big name players in the team at the same time regardless of cohesion and balance (e.g. Sven insisting on 4-4-2 with Scholes on the left and Stevie Me and Chubby Frank in the middle)?

Is it because the club rivalries were too intense at that time for the players to get on? (Rio and Frank lamely tried to claim this on TV recently: I don’t recall the great Spain team of 10 years ago having any problems despite a very contentious Madrid - Barca rivalry and clasicos that ended in brawls).

What was the key issue in your eyes? Answers on a postcard please.

 

[duffer]

Is it though?

I reject the premise of the question. Stick this England against some of the sides that knocked out "the golden generation" and I don't think you fvget a different result.

 

[sincher]

I don't think they are that much better. The England teams I grew up watching were often narrowly beaten by real quality opponents. However, there is better depth in attack, that's for sure, and I do think the squad is more of a cohesive unit. We have also certainly caught up other nations in terms of technical quality on the ball.

 

[NasirTimothy]

Is it though?

More successful then

 

[FrankDrebin]

Never really cared for the 'golden generation' .
This new team/squad, and they are very much that, are far more likeable.

 

[NasirTimothy]

Is it though?

I reject the premise of the question. Stick this England against some of the sides that knocked out "the golden generation" and I don't think you fvget a different result.

So you think it’s just lucky draws? Or no good teams around at the moment?

 

[duffer]

So you think it’s just lucky draws? Or no good teams around at the moment?

Who are the strong sides that this England team have beaten in this Euros and the last world cup?

I'm really enjoying this run and you can only beat what's in front of you but "the golden generation" lost to some great sides and also had some shitty luck.

 

[Handré1990]

Is it though?

I reject the premise of the question. Stick this England against some of the sides that knocked out "the golden generation" and I don't think you fvget a different result.

Agree with this. Is this team better? No idea, though I think that golden gen team wouldn’t have done worse against the teams you’ve faced this tournament.

 

[Mike Smalling]

England reaching the semi-final in the World Cup has been way overstated as a success, in my opinion. Beating Tunisia, Panama and Sweden, while losing to Belgium (twice) and Croatia and drawing with Columbia is honestly not that impressive.

They have done really well in this tournament, though, even it is hasn't been particularly exciting most of the time.

 

[SilentWitness]

Southgate cares more about the tactical side of the game and lampard vs gerrard vs scholes debates and concentrated on things more than the football. The people behind the scenes, the people that the footballers are etc. He’s a manager that finally actually cares about the individuals involved. You can’t tell me that Capello etc gave a shite about that stuff.

 

[JuveGER]

Better players do not necessarily make a better team, if many of them occupy similar positions and/or do not complement each other well.

Also, knockout tournaments are notoriously volatile. It takes very little to change history. Imagine Lampard's goal against Germany in 2010 would have counted. It could have changed the whole game and maybe this England generation would have gone much further. On the other hand, imagine Müller scores his chance against England and the momentum goes to Germany. Suddenly, this team is a failure.

International tournaments are fun. But people often place to much meaning on their outcomes, when it's really just a small number of games with the later stages in a knockout format, where you can be eliminate by a single mistake (even by the ref), a lucky ricochet or on penalties.

 

[Gio]

I don’t think they’re better. Tactically more flexible yes and arguably more balanced across the park. But I don’t see this team reaching finals in the 2000s either. And the golden generation would almost certainly have reached the same position this England team finds itself in. To be honest I reckon they might’ve taken Croatia in the 2018 semi too.

 

[The White Pele]

We’ve picked a balanced team rather than star names.

Imagine if we had done this in 2004/2006 and had the option of bringing on Gerrard/Lampard and Beckham for the final stages of the game.

 

[groovyalbert]

Worth also comparing the squads of France, Italy, Spain, Brazil, Argentina, Portugal, Netherlands, Germany from then (03-08) to what they've got now.

Although France and Portugal can arguably be compared, the drop off in overall quality and depth is huge from the typical usurpers of England.

The latter point is the stickler for me. Even during that "golden period" for England, they were still having to bring on Darius Vassell or Heskey up front as the first change. England's depth in quality across the areas of the pitch that can positively impact a game is a huge factor. Plus the culture and mood around the squad.

 

[Cloud7]

A) You could argue there’s more depth in attack this time around. Off the top of my head, I can’t remember who there was past Becks/Rooney/Owen that were actually quality, but Kane, Sancho, Rash, Graelish, Sterling etc, there’s more to choose from, and all of them have different strengths for different midfields.

B) Overall the squad seems to be more balanced. There are players for each position that suits them, and there’s no shoehorning anyone in. For example Gerrard and Lampard were both attack minded CM’s and it always seemed to be a task to try to fit both of them in, which was made worse by the fact that England often played two up top which made the midfield situation with them even more precarious.

C) Luke GOAT Shaw

D) This part isn’t based on anything at all, but it just feels like the squad harmony is better in this team. Gerrard, Rio, Terry etc, I just can’t shake the feeling that maybe they weren’t the most happy to be around each other. You never get that vibe with the current crop.

E) Not to rain on the parade of how well England are doing, but by and large the quality of international teams right now is way less than it was back then. There are very few teams right now that are very good, which is fortunate that England have ended up being good during this period of time. Take for example Germany. The Germany of this euros was arguably the worst Germany team I’ve watched in my lifetime.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

The 'golden generation' 'failed' because they couldn't win a penalty shootout. Fair to say that the attack didn't function well enough either but they were always hard to beat. Penalties is one of the things that Southgate has worked massively on and why we've won our last two. They did have hard draws as well - 2002 Brazil were better. The team was disunited and the atmosphere toxic in some ways. In 2006 the team was too 'rock n roll' with all the 'WAGS' there and dominating headlines. Of course Sven loved all that the old lothario.

 

[R'hllor]

Because team on a paper is just that

 

[mu4c_20le]

Quality of competition is much lower.

 

[Mr.Ridiculous__]

Ability on the ball. Look at the current England side pass around in ET last game. The golden generation would have hoofed it to glory

 

[The White Pele]

I don’t think they’re better. Tactically more flexible yes and arguably more balanced across the park. But I don’t see this team reaching finals in the 2000s either. And the golden generation would almost certainly have reached the same position this England team finds itself in. To be honest I reckon they might’ve taken Croatia in the 2018 semi too.

I think it’s far more likely that the England of today beats 04/06 Portugal (who weren’t a great side) than the England of yesteryear getting to consecutive semi finals in the current day.

 

[hasanejaz88]

Beside the obvious tactical flaws of trying to play Gerrard and Lampard together, I think the quality in opposition sides is a bit worse now than it was in the 00s during that generation.

I don't think this English team would be as successful if against the German team on the mid to late 00s, or the Spanish team of the late 00s.

There isn't a really amazing national team nowadays, most of that is due to poor coaching because the talent is still there in the likes of Portugal, Belgium and France (even England who I don't think are playing to their potential with Southgate) but they aren't playing to their potential due to having average coaches.

 

[FrankDrebin]

Ability on the ball. Look at the current England side pass around in ET last game. The golden generation would have hoofed it to glory

Yes. The golden generation, for all their talented passers, we're laughably bad at closing out a game.

 

[Trequarista10]

Numerous factors and many down to chance or factors impossible to prove (team spirit, expectations etc) but the biggest measurable, tactical reason would be the simple fact we ditched 442 and dont insist on playing two attacking midfielders in a midfield two.

 

[duffer]

If all of the "golden generation" were playing and in their prime now, what would Southgate's starting XI look like?

 

[El Zoido]

If all of the "golden generation" were playing and in their prime now, what would Southgate's starting XI look like?

Scholes on the bench still.

 

[Cloud7]

Ability on the ball. Look at the current England side pass around in ET last game. The golden generation would have hoofed it to glory

Thats not fair on ability on the ball. The golden generation had Rio, Terry, Cole, Scholes, Gerrard, Beckham, Rooney etc. all of whom were very good on the ball. Perhaps a difference in the way the team is instructed to go about the game now? By and large hoofing the ball is being eradicated from most top teams, but it seems to be more of a tactical instruction rather than a difference in ability.

 

[Balljy]

They're a more balanced team who are used to playing a style of football which suits international football.

The golden generation had some good players, but a lot of the best players were squeezed into the team and it resulted in an imbalanced side with players playing out of position. Ironically, the player who was most suited to international football (Scholes) was the one who was left out or played out of position the most. It's noticeable now that we aren't necessarily playing the most talented players, but we are picking a team that complements each other. Basically, we've finally learned how to pick an international squad.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Worth also comparing the squads of France, Italy, Spain, Brazil, Argentina, Portugal, Netherlands, Germany from then (03-08) to what they've got now.

Although France and Portugal can arguably be compared, the drop off in overall quality and depth is huge from the typical usurpers of England.

The latter point is the stickler for me. Even during that "golden period" for England, they were still having to bring on Darius Vassell or Heskey up front as the first change. England's depth in quality across the areas of the pitch that can positively impact a game is a huge factor. Plus the culture and mood around the squad.

The depth is a good point. England has massive depth now .We could put out an XI that didn't make the cut this time that would be a tough game for most teams in this tournament.

------------------------Pope--------------------
TAA-----Tomori-------Gomez----Justin
----------------JWP------Winks----------------
Greenwood-----Maddison------Barnes
-----------------------Ings---------------------------

Probably only France could offer similar at the moment? Two champions league winners in that team and you could still made a decent bench with AWB, Godfrey, Watkins, Bamford, Lingard etc. Still a lot of exciting players coming through too.

 

[Zehner]

This has probably been discussed before, but it’s again time to take England’s so-called Golden Generation to task in the light of the current crop’s success at back to back major international tournaments.

So why are they much better than the Scholes, Rooney, Lampard, Gerrard and Beckham vintage?

Is it because those guys were overrated big time Charlies who all thought they were Diego Maradona?

Is it because the FA chose foreign managers like Sven and then Cappello to manage the team? (please try and reign it in, xenophobes….)

Is it because they insisted on putting all the big name players in the team at the same time regardless of cohesion and balance (e.g. Sven insisting on 4-4-2 with Scholes on the left and Stevie Me and Chubby Frank in the middle)?

Is it because the club rivalries were too intense at that time for the players to get on? (Rio and Frank lamely tried to claim this on TV recently: I don’t recall the great Spain team of 10 years ago having any problems despite a very contentious Madrid - Barca rivalry and clasicos that ended in brawls).

What was the key issue in your eyes? Answers on a postcard please.

I think the old guard was overrated to be honest.

 

[Lay]

This team actually play decent football. So different to the garbage the golden generation played.

This side would have beaten Iceland that’s for sure. Probably qualified for Euro 2008 too.

 

[NasirTimothy]

We’ve picked a balanced team rather than star names.

Imagine if we had done this in 2004/2006 and had the option of bringing on Gerrard/Lampard and Beckham for the final stages of the game.

Fair point

 

[FrankDrebin]

I'd say the drop off in quality from the 4/5 quality players from the golden generation was quite noticeable.

You had Beckham, Gerrard , Scholes and then you had Sinclair, Mills and Heskey.

 

[NasirTimothy]

I think the old guard was overrated to be honest.

So do I

 

[FrankDrebin]

I think the old guard was overrated to be honest.

I've always felt this.

 

[mu4c_20le]

If all of the "golden generation" were playing and in their prime now, what would Southgate's starting XI look like?

He'd probably still go with a Lampard/Gerrard double pivot, Rooney in the free role behind Owen. I think the problem was that the old team relied too much on individual quality. Perhaps they would fare better with modern tactics.

 

[Abraxas]

I wouldn't say they are better. The golden generation tended to beat the types of sides we have faced so far. I think to compare them honestly then you also have to be brutally honest about the opposition. Even Germany we tend to look at through the lens of past achievement when it is one of the weakest German outfits we've seen. There is no point in ignoring this stuff and just looking at the result, so much of tournament football is a product of circumstance. However, circumstance has also put a fantastic Italian side in front of them in the final, so if they leap that particular hurdle you have to say this group are not just attaining a series of expected results but have something extra, at that point the assessment should change.

I'd say a key difference is the togetherness and spirit. I think all the players concerned with the golden generation would echo that. They are also setup less according to politics and more in line with exactly what the manager wants with players in their best positions. Basically I think the manager has a more malleable group than ones where the manager had all kinds of baggage to deal with.

 

[FrankDrebin]

On BBC's coverage of Italy vs Spain Ferdinand said: "You look at my team especially, players that were coming in with that situation they would have been sulking around the camp at some point, they would have been speaking to their agents at home probably.

"When they get their opportunity they would have been looking for an excuse going 'actually, I'm not fit enough now'."

Ferdinand argues Southgate has avoided a repeat of that and instead learnt from previous mistakes, most notably the 2018 World Cup semi-final defeat to Croatia.

He added: "It all comes from Croatia in 2018. This isn't just something he's (Southgate) built overnight.


"(Jadon) Sancho's a great example, he comes in after not playing the first four games and is seamless.

"These lads (today) are professionals, they've got an understanding of what the job is and they all go out and do it to a tee.

"I think our squad at the time had more world-class players but this team have a much better squad.

"Players that can come in and change games, there's not a drop off from the quality of players around them."

 

[Chairman Steve]

The Sven England teams were narrowly beaten on penalties by Portugal and crucially lost Rooney in those matches or lost to a great Brazil team by a 1 goal deficit. I‘d like to say that Sven was the most unlucky of recent England managers.

Capello just didn’t work either due to the culture clash or maybe that he was over the hill.

 

[NasirTimothy]

Is it though?

I reject the premise of the question. Stick this England against some of the sides that knocked out "the golden generation" and I don't think you fvget a different result.

You say you reject the premise of the question. Let me politely remind you of Euro 2004. That tournament was won by Greece, a team that beat the team that knocked England out in the quarterfinals (Portugal).

That England squad had the following players:

Beckham, Scholes, Terry, Lampard, Gerrard, Neville, Ashley Cole, Campbell, Rooney, Owen, Bridge, King, Carragher, Butt, Hargreaves, Joe Cole, Dyer and Heskey.

So I’d respectfully submit that the premise of the question should not be rejected. That team failed.

 

[flappyjay]

Is svn was managing this team I would not be surprised to see this

Pickford

Walker stones Maguire shaw

Foden/Sancho Grealish Mount Sterling


Kane Rashford

This is what England basically did during that era.