Why so many knee-jerk reactions and negativity 7 games in?

SAFMUTD

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...& yet from the most goals scored and game changing substitutions last season was.....Man Utd!
Playing the devils advocate here, cant come back from losing if youre not losing. Surely we're one of the top teams who most frequently goes down on the score? I cant remember City going down in the score much for example.
 
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Playing the devils advocate here, cant come back from losing if youre not losing. Surely we're one of the top teams who most frequently goes down on the score? I cant remember City going down in the score much for example.
things is though once cant have it both ways. Claiming the incumbent doesn't have a clue how to change games tactically. Then after he proves he does the excuse is he shouldn't have been losing in the first place
 

pocco

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What is classed as a game changing substitution? I remember Ole getting loads of stick for his subs, or lack of/late in the game, last season. The EL final springs to mind where we were dead on our feet and Villarreal had made all their subs and got fresh legs in. Or delaying Fred's substitution and he ended up getting a red, when everyone on here said he needs to come off as he looked like he'd get sent off.

We might have come back a lot last season but I didn't feel like subs were anything to celebrate for Ole. Maybe now when you find a stat to make it look good, but in the heat of the moment last season, it wasn't great.
 

stefan92

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things is though once cant have it both ways. Claiming the incumbent doesn't have a clue how to change games tactically. Then after he proves he does the excuse is he shouldn't have been losing in the first place
I repeat it again: It is possible to turn a game without changing anything tactically. It is simply possible that the other team scores first, while not completely dominating the game. A single badly defended counter is enough to go behind in a game were you are generally playing well.

You have to look deeper into a comeback to prove that a managers knows how to change games tactically.
 

SAFMUTD

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things is though once cant have it both ways. Claiming the incumbent doesn't have a clue how to change games tactically. Then after he proves he does the excuse is he shouldn't have been losing in the first place
I don't think we coming back is a problem, we have done in a lot. The problem is that we start games slowly usually we concede first and have to come back.
 

Korwas

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Playing the devils advocate here, cant come back from losing if youre not losing. Surely we're one of the top teams who most frequently goes down on the score? I cant remember City going down in the score much for example.
20-21 seasonMinutes leading
Man City1773
Tottenham1370
Chelsea1127
West Ham1115
Liverpool1102
Aston Villa1039
Everton985
Leicester959
Arsenal937
Leeds 915
Crystal Palace910
Man Utd905

We didn't exactly dominate our way to 2nd last year.
 

SAFMUTD

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20-21 seasonMinutes leading
Man City1773
Tottenham1370
Chelsea1127
West Ham1115
Liverpool1102
Aston Villa1039
Everton985
Leicester959
Arsenal937
Leeds915
Crystal Palace910
Man Utd905

We didn't exactly dominate our way to 2nd last year.
This proves my point, thanks!
 
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I repeat it again: It is possible to turn a game without changing anything tactically. It is simply possible that the other team scores first, while not completely dominating the game. A single badly defended counter is enough to go behind in a game were you are generally playing well.

You have to look deeper into a comeback to prove that a managers knows how to change games tactically.
This is just a round about way of refusing to give credit where it is due. Tactics during game are impacted in three ways: changing them completely, changing the personnel to execute them more effectively or changing personnel to add defensive calm or attacking aggression to the existing tactics in use.
. All 3 count as tactical adjustments.
 
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I don't think we coming back is a problem, we have done in a lot. The problem is that we start games slowly usually we concede first and have to come back.
Doesn't change the fact the coach has proven he has the know how to effectively come back due to his tactical adjustments. So the myth "he can't change games tactically nor with subs" shouldn't persist so stubbornly.
 

Plant0x84

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20-21 seasonMinutes leading
Man City1773
Tottenham1370
Chelsea1127
West Ham1115
Liverpool1102
Aston Villa1039
Everton985
Leicester959
Arsenal937
Leeds915
Crystal Palace910
Man Utd905
We didn't exactly dominate our way to 2nd last year.
Who cares if we dominated? We finished 2nd. That means we got the results to be the next best team in the league. It doesn’t matter how we do it, we just have to do it. After all as the old cliche goes ‘sign of champions is winning when you don’t play well’. It’s how Liverpool won the league and everybody was losing over them!
 
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What is classed as a game changing substitution? I remember Ole getting loads of stick for his subs, or lack of/late in the game, last season. The EL final springs to mind where we were dead on our feet and Villarreal had made all their subs and got fresh legs in. Or delaying Fred's substitution and he ended up getting a red, when everyone on here said he needs to come off as he looked like he'd get sent off.

We might have come back a lot last season but I didn't feel like subs were anything to celebrate for Ole. Maybe now when you find a stat to make it look good, but in the heat of the moment last season, it wasn't great.
Are you not basically implying all the subs last season that won us all those points from behind away from home domestically were " not good". Plus
were never done in the heat of the moment whilst only the Villareal subs were ?
 

stefan92

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This is just a round about way of refusing to give credit where it is due. Tactics during game are impacted in three ways: changing them completely, changing the personnel to execute them more effectively or changing personnel to add defensive calm or attacking aggression to the existing tactics in use.
. All 3 count as tactical adjustments.
And none are required to turn around a game were you are generally good enough, just got behind.

The fact that a comeback happened does not prove that anything like that was done. I do not deny that it could have happened, but the logic "comeback = tactical adjustment" simply does not work
 
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And none are required to turn around a game were you are generally good enough, just got behind.

The fact that a comeback happened does not prove that anything like that was done. I do not deny that it could have happened, but the logic "comeback = tactical adjustment" simply does not work
Fair enough. I still think it's a stretch to use that argument when the said comebacks happened time again all season long. At some point it ceases to be a case of just being good enough to do that to opponents over and over again
 

b82REZ

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Who cares if we dominated? We finished 2nd. That means we got the results to be the next best team in the league. It doesn’t matter how we do it, we just have to do it. After all as the old cliche goes ‘sign of champions is winning when you don’t play well’. It’s how Liverpool won the league and everybody was losing over them!
That is some revisionism right there.

As much as I hate to admit it, for 3/4 of their title winning season Pool were fecking amazing. They tailed off after project restart, but understandly so seeing as it was already practically won.
 

Plant0x84

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By not playing well but still winning?

I'm not sure that's right
That is some revisionism right there.

As much as I hate to admit it, for 3/4 of their title winning season Pool were fecking amazing. They tailed off after project restart, but understandly so seeing as it was already practically won.
I’m not taking about project restart because as you say they had basically won it before lock down, but there were plenty of games against lesser opposition where they nicked a late win and ground out a result to keep the run going.
A few examples - vs Leicester when they needed a 90 + 5 pen to win, vs Sheffield they were goalless for 70 mins and only managed the one, they were poor against us and we were the first team to take a point off them. The equaliser was poor on our part rather than brilliant on theirs but I think we had held out at 1-0 longer than we could manage in the end. That said we were pushing for a winner late on. Vs Spurs too the scored 90+1 to take the win. They were losing to villa until two goals after 87 mins rescued them and that’s just up to November of there winning season. There was a number of games where they scored and then the other side crumpled after an otherwise strong performance.
It was persistence and perseverance that won them the league. The run may be spectacular but the way they got there wasn’t all that. Much like our unbeaten away tbh.
 

b82REZ

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I’m not taking about project restart because as you say they had basically won it before lock down, but there were plenty of games against lesser opposition where they nicked a late win and ground out a result to keep the run going.
A few examples - vs Leicester when they needed a 90 + 5 pen to win, vs Sheffield they were goalless for 70 mins and only managed the one, they were poor against us and we were the first team to take a point off them. The equaliser was poor on our part rather than brilliant on theirs but I think we had held out at 1-0 longer than we could manage in the end. That said we were pushing for a winner late on. Vs Spurs too the scored 90+1 to take the win. They were losing to villa until two goals after 87 mins rescued them and that’s just up to November of there winning season. The run may be spectacular but the way they got there wasn’t all that. Much like our unbeaten away tbh.
Of course they ground out some results, that's not what you said though.

They were fecking immense that season, even if they had a few bad performances along the way.
 

RuudTom83

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The rule on the café seems to be...any topic can be used to bash and moan about the club...which makes you question why the fans follow the club in the first place if all it brings to their lives is misery.
 

largelyworried

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I’m not taking about project restart because as you say they had basically won it before lock down, but there were plenty of games against lesser opposition where they nicked a late win and ground out a result to keep the run going.
A few examples - vs Leicester when they needed a 90 + 5 pen to win, vs Sheffield they were goalless for 70 mins and only managed the one, they were poor against us and we were the first team to take a point off them. The equaliser was poor on our part rather than brilliant on theirs but I think we had held out at 1-0 longer than we could manage in the end. That said we were pushing for a winner late on. Vs Spurs too the scored 90+1 to take the win. They were losing to villa until two goals after 87 mins rescued them and that’s just up to November of there winning season. There was a number of games where they scored and then the other side crumpled after an otherwise strong performance.
It was persistence and perseverance that won them the league. The run may be spectacular but the way they got there wasn’t all that. Much like our unbeaten away tbh.
This is kind of ridiculous. They won 26 and drew 1 of their first 27 games, including an 18 match winning run. That was the best start of any team in top flight history. Despite a flat end to the season, they finished with 99 points. Of course a few games were bound to be won narrowly. Unless your bar is so high that all of those games have to be won comfortably, it was an amazing season by any possible measure.
 

Plant0x84

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Of course they ground out some results, that's not what you said though.

They were fecking immense that season, even if they had a few bad performances along the way.
That’s exactly what I said. They didn’t dominate every game, they had to scrap and grind results.
We’ll have to agree to disagree on the basis of you refusing to accept fact.
 

slyadams

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Who cares if we dominated? We finished 2nd. That means we got the results to be the next best team in the league. It doesn’t matter how we do it, we just have to do it. After all as the old cliche goes ‘sign of champions is winning when you don’t play well’. It’s how Liverpool won the league and everybody was losing over them!
You cannot believe that surely? Do you think United can get better and challenge for titles if we're constantly falling behind and having to come back? It's clear as day that's a dangerous approach because by constantly conceding first you take 0-0 draws and 1-0 wins off the table as well as using a lot of mental energy in every game. Its an under-appreciated point that coming from behind is mentally exhausting, players need the 'simple 2-0' wins at home to almost take a break.
 
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This is kind of ridiculous. They won 26 and drew 1 of their first 27 games, including an 18 match winning run. That was the best start of any team in top flight history. Despite a flat end to the season, they finished with 99 points. Of course a few games were bound to be won narrowly. Unless your bar is so high that all of those games have to be won comfortably, it was an amazing season by any possible measure.
I think his point is if it was okay for liverpool to finish first. It shouldn't be looked at as a crime because the team in second did the same to get second place....
 

b82REZ

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That’s exactly what I said. They didn’t dominate every game, they had to scrap and grind results.
We’ll have to agree to disagree on the basis of you refusing to accept fact.
It's not fact. It's you twisting your narrative to try and absolve our performances.

We ground out results under Fergie, we never dominated every game. No one does. But to point at those games and claim they're the rule and not the exception is disingenuous at best, or downright delusional.
 

Martialfc

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Lately without even 10 games played yet (In the PL), there is so much negativity and pessimism on the forum?

Like it's almost as if you'd think we're in a relegation battle, even after finishing 2nd last year, and yes I've heard all the excuses as to why we finished 2nd and why it was nothing to do with Ole or the players and in fact more to do with the teams around us. I mean we deserve some credit can't make up excuses for every single positive thing that United do. Anyway, there seems to be a lot of talk and dislike towards the manager. Now more than ever it seems as I'm perplexed as to why? Why now of all times, why right this moment?

We're not in free fall by any means and yet the feeling around the fans on here anyway is that we're in some sort of disaster mode. Even news that Phelan, Carrick, McKenna are getting new contracts somehow comes back to Ole and fake, patronising praise for the club.

The season has just begun and I'll say it again, people are getting really upset to the point where from the outside looking in, looking at people's reactions to news, it seems as though we're flirting with the bottom 3.

It's the international break too, which doesn't help things either.
I’ll tell you why because Ole doesn’t have a clue what he’s doing.
 

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The rule on the café seems to be...any topic can be used to bash and moan about the club...which makes you question why the fans follow the club in the first place if all it brings to their lives is misery.
Stupid argument. Supporting a club for 30 years isn't a choice, at this point it is a duty. You can't turn off your feelings emotions and love for the sport and your club.

That being said looking at some of the basic crap we get wrong as a club is infuriating and people come here to vent.
 

Plant0x84

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This is kind of ridiculous. They won 26 and drew 1 of their first 27 games, including an 18 match winning run. That was the best start of any team in top flight history. Despite a flat end to the season, they finished with 99 points. Of course a few games were bound to be won narrowly. Unless your bar is so high that all of those games have to be won comfortably, it was an amazing season by any possible measure.
Good lord. The original point was about dominating the opponent, dominating games. I pointed out that even the mighty dippers didn’t dominate every opponent, having to grind out more than one game to keep the winning run going. They had a knack of scoring late and turning games around.

The run may be spectacular but the way they got there wasn’t all that. Much like our unbeaten away tbh.
 

largelyworried

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Good lord. The original point was about dominating the opponent, dominating games. I pointed out that even the mighty dippers didn’t dominate every opponent, having to grind out more than one game to keep the winning run going. They had a knack of scoring late and turning games around.
They dominated a shit load more games than we did, so the comparison is still ridiculous.
 

romufc

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The rule on the café seems to be...any topic can be used to bash and moan about the club...which makes you question why the fans follow the club in the first place if all it brings to their lives is misery.
That's not true entirely, people do give credit to the club for the transfer window, getting Sancho, Varane and Ronaldo in.

What fans dont want to accept is, below standard finishes and performances. Why should we as fans accept 2nd place and EL?

When a club of our finances, support, size should be challenging for the big titles. We haven't challenged for the league or CL since 2013, that is 7 years ago now.

The question then is, why do fans accept mediocracy?
 

slyadams

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Good lord. The original point was about dominating the opponent, dominating games. I pointed out that even the mighty dippers didn’t dominate every opponent, having to grind out more than one game to keep the winning run going. They had a knack of scoring late and turning games around.
There’s a difference between not dominating every game and hardly dominating any. To draw a comparison between that Liverpool side and us and suggests there was some comparable level of achievement is inexplicable.
 

Plant0x84

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There’s a difference between not dominating every game and hardly dominating any. To draw a comparison between that Liverpool side and us and suggests there was some comparable level of achievement is inexplicable.
You’re correct. Liverpool didn’t win the league after 7 games. :rolleyes:
If you could also point out where I compared the level of achievement I’d be grateful.
 

Forevergiggs1

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I think his point is if it was okay for liverpool to finish first. It shouldn't be looked at as a crime because the team in second did the same to get second place....
The point is if we finished second playing like a second place team then you'd have a point which is why the forum is always going round in circles. Some look at the position and dont care about the performances, while other look at the performances and don't care about the position. Who's right?
 

romufc

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Again, we’ve played 7 games this season. Let’s review at the end of the season shall we.
We have played 10 games this season, we have won 5 so that is 50% win percentage and we've dominated 1 game, the Leeds game.

That is what is to come dominate 1 in 10, and win only 50% of our games. Lets wait till the season? Why? We have seen the evidence in the last 3 years that Ole is not capable of 1. Winning anything and 2. Playing good football.
 
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The point is if we finished second playing like a second place team then you'd have a point which is why the forum is always going round in circles. Some look at the position and dont care about the performances, while other look at the performances and don't care about the position. Who's right?
The league table doesn't lie. So the claim 'we didn't play like a second place team" is just confirmation bias for people's already existing dislike of Ole. Not reality. Because the notion that we spent all season playing badly is over the top hyperbole at its worst