Why United fans should be positive - Explaining recent decisions

Drz

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I mean Rojo defender worse than Young the other day, Bailly was worse in 30 minutes against PSG and at one point in the second leg I literally saw Dalot turn around and set their forward free but sure whatever.
I think coming in Ole saw the right-back position where he had a young player that has practically not played and an experienced player that was diligent, not injured too often. So he put in Young and gave him the armband for the sake stability, hoping he would mostly feature.
Whilst I never rated Young even back when we bought him, I did not expect him to be this poor. It is shocking. This level of poor was unexpected. Thing is Ole having given him the armband will mostly likely select him if he is fit and available out of loyalty to his decision to make him captain in the first place.

I do think this will be rectified at the end of the season.
 

Smores

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Agreed with everything. And specifically the line up choice. The options is just not there for the manager and not that much difference will have happened.
I like to check certain posters occasionally.

You've posted Dalot over Young in your lineup for Everton.
Picked Dalot in your Barca lineup.
Responded to someone elses lineup disagreeing with Young and Lingard.

Yet you agree with everything in the OP...go figures
 

Canagel

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I like to check certain posters occasionally.

You've posted Dalot over Young in your lineup for Everton.
Picked Dalot in your Barca lineup.
Responded to someone elses lineup disagreeing with Young and Lingard.

Yet you agree with everything in the OP...go figures
I would have preferred Dalot to start but don't blame the manager for starting Young (which is the point of OP). It wouldn't have made a difference in the end since the manager should have better options at his disposal. But thanks for checking anyway.
 

Smores

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I would have preferred Dalot to start but don't blame the manager for starting Young (which is the point of OP). It wouldn't have made a difference in the end since the manager should have better options at his disposal. But thanks for checking anyway.
So you don't agree there was no better option than Young evidently which is his first bit in bold and what most have argued against. You also picked Dalot for the PSG and Arsenal game.

Blame is a ridiculous word considering we played Barca we weren't winning anyway it's just the odd almost virtue signalling of pretending no bad choice was made. It's not blame it's critical judgement.
 

BaseFishing

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I wholeheartedly agree with the OP. Excellent post. Nice to see a (somewhat rare) voice of reason on here.
 

edgecutter

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I gotta agree with OP, but without a DOF we will continue to struggle with recruitment that suits a style of play the ole wants. Woodward will get blinded by trying to sign glaticos again.
 

Grande

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I think it is the perfect time to do that. Ole is a new manager and we should use that to our advantage. Arguably, a bunch of new players might respond better to his tactics than players that have played negative/defensive football for a number of years now.

Also, we don't have solid starting line-up. We keep rotating constantly. There really isn't much team cohesion to be disturbed. I think it is better to risk on 2-3 new defenders than keep players that have shown time and time again that they do not belong at the club.
Yes, it’s a fair argument. Consider, though, that we have a big but still limited budget.

If we let Young, Jones, Darmian, Rojo, Bailly and Valencia go all at once, we’ll need four defenders in. RB, LB, CB and CB. If we buy four players at a unquestionably higher level than Young or Jones, we’lo not have much money to strengthen other parts of the team. If we buy four mid-price defenders, we’re again at a situation with many equal options and no clear first eleven like you mention.

Undoubtedly, part of the extra value of Ashley Young and Phil Jones, compared to other players at about their level, is that they have extremely high work ethics, are team oriented, and most importantly, they have won the league under Ferguson and know the standards and culture that Solskjær is trying to make come alive. That makes them more valuable to Ole than two squad options that are only somewhat better players on the pitch. And particularly so if we want to have quite a few young players.

Someone at this point will argue that Jones and Young only have loser ethics and uphold loser culture, but I don’t think that’s true. What we need, is players that are, or will be, clearly much better than them. We can afford one or two of those, and then we’ll have good use for them in the squad yet another season.
 

Run_time_error

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Wholesale changes to the squad will mean writing off at least another season. It would be a miracle to get lots of new players gelling quickly. When you look at the season, yes we're miles behind the top two (I can't speak their names), with a handful of games remaining we're in with a shout of top four. I'm not really hopeful of achieving it but we are in with a shout nevertheless. That's with a squad we all know is underpowered and underperforming. That's despite having Jose in charge for far too long when he had turned on his players, his players! So I think a couple of excellent signings and a couple of decent signings would go a long way to getting us into a more competitive position. There are players whose time is definitely up and need to be offloaded but also oportunities for younger players to step in. I think we have every reason to be positive, we're Manchester United. That's reason enough isn't it?
 

Di Maria's angel

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I mean Rojo defender worse than Young the other day, Bailly was worse in 30 minutes against PSG and at one point in the second leg I literally saw Dalot turn around and set their forward free but sure whatever.
So, you've taken isolated incidents to prove the shortcomings of three defenders? Yet ignore the many of Young's which have directly cost us 2 matches in recent weeks?
 

Wumminator

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So, you've taken isolated incidents to prove the shortcomings of three defenders? Yet ignore the many of Young's which have directly cost us 2 matches in recent weeks?
They all have shortcomings! That’s the point! All of our defenders are poor and you might as well just throw a dart board at a list of shit full backs when picking our team.
 

Di Maria's angel

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They all have shortcomings! That’s the point! All of our defenders are poor and you might as well just throw a dart board at a list of shit full backs when picking our team.
Ole, of all managers, should realise the importance of youth. I mean its a little ironic he favours the likes of Rashford, Martial and McTominay over Lukaku, Sanchez and Matic yet when it comes to Dalot and Young, he'll always go with the latter no matter what.
 

Wumminator

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Ole, of all managers, should realise the importance of youth. I mean its a little ironic he favours the likes of Rashford, Martial and McTominay over Lukaku, Sanchez and Matic yet when it comes to Dalot and Young, he'll always go with the latter no matter what.
Dalot has played frequently for us. To pretend he's a much better option than Young defensively against Barce is mental and to call it ironic makes no sense.
 

Di Maria's angel

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Dalot has played frequently for us. To pretend he's a much better option than Young defensively against Barce is mental and to call it ironic makes no sense.
Yeah, you're right. Even though, when Young started we gave away 4 goals in 2 games, whereas, when Dalot started, we gave away 1. Makes sense.
 

Wumminator

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Yeah, you're right. Even though, when Young started we gave away 4 goals in 2 games, whereas, when Dalot started, we gave away 1. Makes sense.
I honestly believe this is one of the most idiotic responses I have ever seen in my life. You have completely ignored any semblance of context to make a very poor point.
 

Di Maria's angel

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I honestly believe this is one of the most idiotic responses I have ever seen in my life. You have completely ignored any semblance of context to make a very poor point.
You're like a brick wall, at times. We literally were exterminated by Barcelona with two makeshift fullbacks on Tuesday the 16th April. I don't know if you remember but when we had two actual fullbacks, last week, we conceded 1 goal and that was an own goal. The bloody evidence is in front of you and you're still arguing we're better off with a failed winger playing at fullback.
 

Wumminator

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Come on now. Young was fecking dire against Barca but Dalot has been exposed defensively in every single game he's played at fullback. By players not fit to clean Messi's boots. There's a good reason he's only getting games as a winger.
I’ve disagreed with you at times Pogue but I’ve never thought you just completely didn’t understand the game. I don’t get where some people get their opinions from.
 

Di Maria's angel

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Come on now. Young was fecking dire against Barca but Dalot has been exposed defensively in every single game he's played at fullback. By players not fit to clean Messi's boots. There's a good reason he's only getting games as a winger.
He just played at LWB last week and Barca, for all their might, barely threatened.

It's not at all surprising that in the return leg with a CB and an awful winger as fullback options, we were utterly dismantled.
 

Adam-Utd

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Come on now. Young was fecking dire against Barca but Dalot has been exposed defensively in every single game he's played at fullback. By players not fit to clean Messi's boots. There's a good reason he's only getting games as a winger.
Yep. Right now Shaw is the only one who's capable at both ends. Dalot is good going forward but a bit dodgy in defence. Young can be a good defender but he offers sod all going forward. Rojo... well we might as well play with 10 men. Bailly is in the doghouse and been awful recently. Lindelof tried but he looked lost which is fair enough.

Right now we've just got a set of poor options, and with Shaw missing another match we are stuck with Young/Dalot again.
 

lysglimt

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Dalot is a much better wingback than a defender - defensively he is at least as shaky as Young, even if he offers more going forward.

But I wouldnt want to start the season with either of them as first choice - I want Wan-Bissaka, who is at least 1 level above both defensively...at least.
 

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He just played at LWB last week and Barca, for all their might, barely threatened.

It's not at all surprising that in the return leg with a CB and an awful winger as fullback options, we were utterly dismantled.
Ashley Young also played in that first leg.

To put your argument out (I’m trying to make sense of it)

1) Dalot played in a game against Barcelona where they barely threatened

2) Ashley Young also played in that game

3) By playing in a game where Barce only scored one and barely threatened, Dalot should play.

4) Ashley Young shouldn’t play against Barce.
 

Di Maria's angel

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Ashley Young also played in that first leg.

To put your argument out (I’m trying to make sense of it)

1) Dalot played in a game against Barcelona where they barely threatened

2) Ashley Young also played in that game

3) By playing in a game where Barce only scored one and barely threatened, Dalot should play.

4) Ashley Young shouldn’t play against Barce.

Young is shit. Has been for ages.

I'm not going to argue that Dalot is prime Cafu, he's not. He's definitely far better option than a failed winger who's synonymous with our decline post-Fergie.
 

Pogue Mahone

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Yep. Right now Shaw is the only one who's capable at both ends. Dalot is good going forward but a bit dodgy in defence. Young can be a good defender but he offers sod all going forward. Rojo... well we might as well play with 10 men. Bailly is in the doghouse and been awful recently. Lindelof tried but he looked lost which is fair enough.

Right now we've just got a set of poor options, and with Shaw missing another match we are stuck with Young/Dalot again.
If would play Dalot with Shaw behind him (which is basically what we did in the first leg) then sure, it's worth a crack. Otherwise, yeah, we've only one solid option at fullback, Luke Shaw. Take him out of the team and we're goosed.

Which makes it all the more maddening that we've spent the whole damn season with three fullbacks on our books (Valencia, Rojo and Darmian) that all seem to be surplus to requirements. Sums up the long running cluster-feck of our transfer "strategy"

We're also not giving any chances to kids from our academy/reserves who specialise as fullbacks, despite the snafu I describe above. This also bothers me.
 

Di Maria's angel

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What has that got to do with Barcelona barely threatening? You’re talking about defensively not Young’s crossing ability.
So his overall performance counts for nothing? Are you saying he wasn't bad in the first leg? Our captain who also cost us the game against Wolves earlier in the month should be an automatic starter no matter what?
 

Wumminator

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So his overall performance counts for nothing? Are you saying he wasn't bad in the first leg? Our captain who also cost us the game against Wolves earlier in the month should be an automatic starter no matter what?
In the first game against Barce, Young made more tackles and more clearances than Dalot. They had almost exact passing accuracy but Young got on the ball a bit more.

To suggest that because of this game Dalot is an automatic pick over Young is mental. You keep changing the goalposts. There is no way that Dalot is a much better defensive player than Ashley Young. Neither of them are great picks. To blame Ole picking one over the other is absolutely mental.
 

Di Maria's angel

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In the first game against Barce, Young made more tackles and more clearances than Dalot. They had almost exact passing accuracy but Young got on the ball a bit more.

To suggest that because of this game Dalot is an automatic pick over Young is mental. You keep changing the goalposts. There is no way that Dalot is a much better defensive player than Ashley Young. Neither of them are great picks. To blame Ole picking one over the other is absolutely mental.
Well, one's 19 in his first year at a big club, playing in the CL against one of the biggest teams in history. The other's a seasoned professional, aged 34 and has played hundreds of games for Manchester United who gave the away the tie when we had Barca against the wall after a very positive start to the game.

Young has been a ticking time bomb recently, it's not at all surprising that he fecked up the other day. The onus is on the manager for picking him after some calamitous performances.

How have I changed goal posts? I've argued one thing and that's the fact that Dalot should have played over Young.
 

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Dalot should have played because he offers so much more on the ball. Jones, Young and Smalling are all a hindrance in possession. How are we supposed to get the goal when we cannot progress the ball put of the deeper areas.
 

charlenefan

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Last night was a very sombre experience for United fans. We got battered and bruised by a team who are quite simply on another level to us. The fact is though we are on the way back and it was fecking great to just to get to this part of the competition. I notice that the posters around here are starting to turn on Ole and it is absolutely madness in my eyes. I thought I'd make a sane thread to cancel out all the nonsense.

1) The Young situation - There was no better choice than starting Ashley Young last night.
It's as simple as it says. Now that doesn't mean that Ashley Young played well or that Ashley Young didn't make a mistake, it just simply means that Ole Gunnar Solskjaer made the logical choice. He couldn't play Eric Bailly at right back. We have seen how that turns out. Luke Shaw was gone. Valencia is on his way out. Darmian has played six times total this year and hasn't been seen for months. Rojo just got torn to shreds against West Ham. The only viable alternative is Dalot and realistically he has shown less defensively than Young. Ole could do nothing about this situation.

2) Our recent contract extensions - Jones/Young will feature next year.
I see a lot of posts complaining about these two having their contracts extended. Well the simple fact is, while they are no longer good enough for United, they are better than their alternatives. Behind them in the pecking order are: Darmian, Rojo, Bailly and Valencia. At least three of them will leave next summer. Realistically our defensive options without these two contract extensions could be: Lindelof, Smalling, Shaw and Dalot. We NEED more squad players than that, especially with our injury problems. Due to our deficiencies else where it would be madness to sign 3/4 defenders. So Young/Jones getting a contract makes sense.

3.) If we are going to play like this we should have kept Mourinho
I am seeing more and more of these types of posts. Mourinho was done. He had just got battered by Liverpool and had fallen out with the squad. The key here is though is that Pogba and Rashford weren't performing for Mourinho. They were our best players and Pogba had been dropped. It is evident that Mourinho had a toxic relationship with the players and we can't just get rid of the whole squad (some of you may wish this was possible)

4.) Ed Woodwood hasn't backed us in the transfer market
When Mourinho took over at United, we had been spending just over 210 million on the wages of our players. We've just announced we have wages of 296 million without Sanchez being here for a full year) Mourinho spent over 400 million. He recouped around 100 million. So on average every year he was here had had a 100 million net spend while increasing the wage bill by about 30 million a year. For those figures we have Fred, Dalot, Sanchez, Lukaku, Lindelof, Bailly and Pogba to show for it. Are those players worth the money? No. Now we hear rumours (nothing confirmed) that Mourinho wanted Maguire, Perisic et al. Would these have improved us? Woodwood was in the unenviable position of making more signings that wouldn't have improved us or dismissing a manager who had just finished second. Either one might have put us in a worst position than we are now.

5.) We will spend a feckton this summer.
Not really a decision but important to say. Just as important as net spend is the wage bill. We are looking at reducing this massively. Players who aren't contributing enough are going, Mata, Herrera, Valencia are pretty certain to leave. Rojo, Darmian, Periera will likely follow them out the door. We've already recouped money for Fellaini. We are for the first time in ages have a proper clear out. You might think you hear this every year, but this time we know that contracts are expiring. This should clear out our wage bill massively. Furthermore with our relative lack of spend this past summer and the clear deficiencies in our squad it is obvious where we need to buy. I expect a 200+ million pound summer. The Glazers have been shown to back new managers when they need it.

6.) Giving Ole the job.
This is a no brainer. When he was hired no-one expected us to be challenging for the top four or get past PSG. He accomplished both and the players and fans loved him. There was no other option. Some people keep talking about waiting till summer.. what would this have accomplished? There will be no big name managers leaving their post this summer and Ole might rightly have told us to feck off if we waited. So what benefit would that have done? Since he took the job he has us pretty much top of the premier league. Our recent form isn't great but we've player Barcelona twice, Wolves twice and Arsenal away. They are all games that ANY manager would struggle with.

We have to be positive. We are in a much better position now than we have been for the last four/five years as far as I can see. We have a manager who has already done a great job. We have money available and we have space in our squad. Even though watching City/Liverpool push on is galling, this is not Ole's fault and we just need to put everything into preparing for next year now.
I agree with everything bar the assumption we'll spend money this summer, if you take what the media say as gospel and Sancho is our primary target for an attacking role Dortmund have already said they're not selling him, ok they may have history of saying such things previously and done the opposite but right now we have to take their word for it so who's our second choice? Who's our third choice? And are those players good enough? We need a right back, we need a CB, we need a RW but all these things have been true for around 3 years now, why will this summer be any different? Dont tell me Mourinho didn't identify these areas himself already

Then there's the Pogba issue, he's our best player, a player we're looking to build a team around and yet he's a player who up till now has shown he's not good enough to warrant that. He's never shown that consistently he's the player to drag us through difficult games so unless he's sold and we go in a different direction that's a problem that's probably going to continue into next season

Even if we have a really good transfer window addressing the areas that need to be addressed the next area of concern is whether those good signings will be hampered by an unproven manager, I've only ever known success at United and so 6 years without even competing for the title is foreign land to me so the idea of potentially writing off a title challenge before a season has even begun doesn't equal reasons to be positive

Lots of ifs and buts in what I've said but I dunno I'm just not feeling very positive about things :(
 

Pogue Mahone

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Well, one's 19 in his first year at a big club, playing in the CL against one of the biggest teams in history. The other's a seasoned professional, aged 34 and has played hundreds of games for Manchester United who gave the away the tie when we had Barca against the wall after a very positive start to the game.

Young has been a ticking time bomb recently, it's not at all surprising that he fecked up the other day. The onus is on the manager for picking him after some calamitous performances.

How have I changed goal posts? I've argued one thing and that's the fact that Dalot should have played over Young.
The explanation to what's confusing you is within the posts you're typing...
 

kouroux

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Saying he didn't have alternatives for Young is so wrong. When we know the man is a disaster and we can foresee his mistakes and he does that confirmation, it's frustrating.
Play Dalot who couldn't be worse for the game and who could benefit long term from an experience like that.
There is no upside in playing Young, short term nor long term
 

kouroux

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Before the match I think he was right choice. After the stupid mistake, I too wish we had used another player.

Young is clearly not good enough, but that mistake is not something you expect from him tbh.

My point in all this is that Ole and our club need to rebuild. The team is not good enough.

Its okay to feel down about the match, of course we want to win. That said, we should not expect miracles. Some guys on here said we should see this season as a write off and I think they were spot on.
Of course you can expect a stupid mistake from Young. Not many fans were surprised
 

Vadim

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Good OP @Wumminator

Unfortunately, you’re pi55ing into the wind. There are too many dramatic cry babies here that have zero patience.
 

Di Maria's angel

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I'd go with Ashley Young. He was pretty wank going forwards but our right flank looked more secure than our left (which isn't a great reflection on Dalot considering he had a specialist left back on the same side as him)
I dont normally analyse post game detailed stats but the heat map, if I read it correctly, shows that Barca spent a lot of time on our right side i.e. Youngs side.
 

Di Maria's angel

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Good OP @Wumminator

Unfortunately, you’re pi55ing into the wind. There are too many dramatic cry babies here that have zero patience.
6 years and counting, in fairness. I'd say we shown a lot of patience since Fergie retired. I'm not saying lets all consume ourselves in rage but the lack of patience could be justified now.